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Opinions Please!
When is a good time to start learning 6/7 Balls ?
What do you think is a good proficiency level to achieve for 5 balls before moving onto higher numbers.
I.e Number of catches, height of pattern, confidence ect?
I am learning to juggle 5 ball cascade I have been for a couple months now.
My personal best about 70 catches at the time of writing this, (will record and check this weekend).
When I get going on a good session about 30-40 catches average for the runs.
Do you think I should try learning; 3 in one hand in each hand, 3 ball snake ect and other pre-requisites whilst learning 5, or just go for it with 6/7?
Any advise would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
-Tommy
Can't tell for 6b, 3 in one hand, just for 7b:
first thing will be to get used to the additional balls in hands at launch; that can make sense already when you get 5b runs of like 30-50 catches ( which I believe is a first level of running 5b before new hurdles appear like drifts, twists, bad posture, smoother technique that you need for enduring longer ); but you can't yet expect to get longer runs of 7b, much over a flash, before you don't with 5b feel comfortable also at 7b-height and 7b's speed.
I'd say, just try out how good you're doing with 6b and-or 7b - if you're mainly failing and dropping and losing time picking up drops and don't get into any practise rhythm that feels like getting you somewhere -> go back to rather invest that time into controlling 5b better in all kinds of simple variations of height, width, speed, moving with the pattern, short dwelltime, higher handspeed and alike. A (`the´) relevant vid for systematic practise is here: http://juggling.tv/16767. For 6b, that would then be doing those exercises with the fountain with 4b. The more you feel that you're actually really improving with more ball(s), the more investing more time into it makes sense and is then more fun and feels better.
Oh, forgot, .. if you're familiar with and feel comfortable doing siteswaps and don't mind doing with gaps (0-s) and holds (2-s) and fast hand to hand passes (1-s, Ones), aaahnd don't mind doing in a `broken´ rhythm, then a just as good an approach is to train siteswaps with consecutive 6-s, resp. 7-s, in them, like 5b-77722, 5b-771, 5b-7733, 5b-66661, 6b-77772 or alike ( cf. http://jugglesensei.net/SiteswapFun1.htm ).
Thank you very much for your response, 7B_Wizard
Firstly I think you have summarized it very well in terms of the drifting and twisting, I am just getting used to wrangling it under control, which is very Satisfying! And I now see how being able to maintain the pattern with clean lengthy runs over time seems to be the best method to preparing for 7.
I'll try some runs of 6/7 this week and continue working on the height and "simple variations of height, width, speed, moving with the pattern, short dwelltime, higher handspeed and alike". That is extremely helpful, and a great way of putting it.
I definitely agree with putting in more time when you feel it paying off, my 4 ball has gotten much better recently since my in air awareness with 5 has gone up and everything in general is slowing down in the air and collisions are less common.
Thank y o u for giving the opportunity to - unlike in this very sentence right now - say something useful :o} ( = You're welcome, great, it helped! )
No, serious, wrangling it under control, which is very Satisfying!
.. yeah, the difference between being chased about the place by your pattern and putting it where you want to.
Jus' one more idea .. it might or might not help to use smaller balls to start with higher amounts (unless these slip through your fingers).
Additionally in response to your sideswap assistance, I have been doing basic sideswap patterns but will have to give the ones mentioned ago, they look like great fun!
In regards to the balls,I have been using a mixture of Juggle Dream Pro Sport 120g, and Silx Light (120g) 78mm balls.
I think that the juggle dream help with getting longer runs, and recoveries and controlling the pattern, which I only use inside.
Juggling 5 balls with the silx light balls helps for well scooped throws and better arches crossing in the air and consistent timing, and they look much better, and as I practice outside alot, they are my go to as I live in a rainy country.
I have found that warming up with the bags and then moving onto the balls works really well for me, when I feel the pattern sinking in.
Your advise is very much appreciated
-Kind regards
-Tommy
IMO:
For 6 balls, you want to be able to run 3 in one hand, in your worst hand, for ~15 or more catches at best before you start learning the fountain (remember, scoop!).
For 7 balls, I think you need to be over 100 catches of 5 balls before you start work on 7 (5 balls is not really under any proper amount of control before you break 100 catches).
Hi Matts,
Thank you for your response, apologies for the delay.
I think that the numbers you have set out are very reasonable and I really like the Scoop Imagery!
I think i'll put learning 7 ball back on the shelf for a bit, and learn more of the pre-requisites, and spend lots of time on 3 in one hand!
Kind regards
-Tommy
Several years ago I think it was Haggis Mcleod who used to recommend starting to learn 5 clubs as soon as possible purely because it took so long to learn which I think is as good a reason as any. The sooner you learn a skill the sooner you can enjoy using it.
Instead of thinking about whether to start learning something, can you think of any reason that starting to learn it would be detrimental to you?
You don't need permission to start learning a new skill, if you think it is fun just get to it!
Hi Orinoco
Thank you for your insight,
I like the mentality of getting the ball rolling, however slowly.
Now that I have 7 Juggle dream balls, I will try doing some 7 ball flashes every now and then! In addition with lots of sideswap techniques that 7B_Wizard recommended. But leave the serious practice until I get a little better with 5.
And get 2 more Px3's for the 5 club cascade, however far ahead it is!
Kind regards
-Tommy
Stephen Meschke - - Parent #
It's too early to start training with 6 and 7. You can maximize your learning rate by training with 2,3,4, and 5 balls. It's okay to give 7 balls a try, but don't spend too much time on it.
Please record more records, so that it is easier for others to see your skill level.
Hi Stephen
Thanks for your advice,
I will be concentrating on sideswaps and some different 4 and 5 ball tempo/ height variations ect.
Giving 7 ball flashes a try every now and then after warming up and going back to 5 to slow the pattern down even more.
I will upload some more records over the next few weeks to give users an idea of my skill level.
Many thanks
-Tommy
Urbex/spelunking - a look around an abandoned Soviet-era circus theatre in Chisinau, Moldova.
http://www.thebohemianblog.com/2013/11/urban-exploration-abandoned-soviet-circus.html
And what a grand building it is. I have a feeling I recognise it, possibly from the film called Inside The Soviet Circus or something similar, but I think that was made just before this building was erected. Or maybe I've just seen this article before. Whatever it is, that looks a pretty impressive edifice in which to celebrate the circus arts.
And for those of you too blunted to read through the entire article, here's a link to some pictures of the place when it was still in use submitted by a local.
Bon appétit.
Little Paul - - Parent #
It feels familiar to me as well, but not so familiar that I’m certain I’ve seen it before.
Really does make me wish I could have seen a show there when it was at its peak though. Must have been a really interesting atmosphere.
We have indeed seen them before.
Stephen Meschke - - Parent #
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seem that during 1920 to 1960 the primary big circus animal in American Circuses was the elephant, while in Russian Circuses it was the bear.
Ethics aside, using each type of animal has it's unique advantages and disadvantages. Which factors drove American circuses to choose elephants, while Russian circuses choose bears?
Cedric Lackpot - - Parent #
I'm going to guess that P.T. Barnum had a hand in popularising elephants in North America, since he made Jumbo internationally famous. And likewise the bear has been a symbol of Russian-ness for a very long time, has it not?
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Bears don't take up much space or eat much. But they're a bit boring, not very impressive - the poor man's elephant. Also, bears aren't very intelligent and can't really stick up for themselves. Remember Nellie.. left the circus and even made the effort to say goodbye. Now that's a classy beast.
Bears need feeding pots of honey, whereas the capitalist north americans will have realised that they can sell the bags of peanuts to the public to feed to the elephants.
Bears are better as they can ride bicycles, while elephants have to drive cars.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Elephants can ride bicycles but bears can't drive cars.
On the beach, a couple of weeks back, I taught a couple of kids to juggle. One of them gave up after a couple of minutes but the other was throwing 2 ball cascades after only four/five tries. He was juggling 3b cascade in about 15 mins! It was such a nice experience for both of us. As he left with his family I gave him three of my juggling balls.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Sil-X, not my newest ones.
I wanted to start a new thread about how I met a juggler on the beach, passed myself off as a muggle & scored a free set of juggling balls. Sadly it has been a very long time since I was last able to pass myself off as a kid.
Good for you for giving him the juggling balls. That was a lovely gesture.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
When someone's that into it and so quick to learn, I couldn't let him leave without some balls to continue. He's probably already a better juggler than me.
Relatedly, if you're interested in fast learners... I have taught hundreds of people to juggle (maybe >1000) and the (by far) two fastest learners I have seen in juggling both turned out to be tennis coaches!
Mike Moore - - Parent #
I learned at a tennis camp, from my coach. And then coached tennis! I find that hockey players tend to do well, too.
I had a similar experience with someone liking diabolo last week and sent them away with a spare diabolo.
Fortunately, their parents are an acquaintance and so I will likely get a progress report at some point next year. Hopefully they stick with it!
this is one of the great experiencies that "social juggling" brings us.
I had the fortune to be that kid once.. well, not so young, but I was 18 and met an older girl that was juggling with 3 clubs, i aproached her, she tought me the basics, and then she gave me her clubs!
I also had the rewarding feeling of teaching many people how to juggle, and giving a set of balls to a kid that was learning really well.
it felt like closing the circle, you know.. giving back to life what i've received.
Diaboloists! The DCA 2017 (yes, 2017) collab video is happening. 16 days left to get involved. Sign up to the DCA forum if you're not a member already. All details here: http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=14398.0 Cheers!
Here's the video:
http://juggling.tv/16969
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Very cool. How many diablos was that at 3.54!! Love the dark music too.
How to count catches. It is obvious for classic cascade. But what about shower or halfshower? To humble opinion ONE count for these patterns consists of TWO catches. One goes up-outside-inside and second horisontal/vertical respectively. It mean that 50 shower/halfshower tosses equal to 100 catches in the cascades. Or I am wrong?
Catches are always catches (except in showers* and multiplex** it seems). 100 catches of a 3 ball half shower will be 50 balls landing on the right, and 50 on the left.
*For some reason, in showers specifically, people sometimes only count high throws. I have no idea why and think that is inconsistant.
**Multiplexing can get complicated. Do you count every catch of every ball? Or is a multiplex throw only worth 1 catch counted? How about squeeze catches? There seems to be no standard agreed upon here at all.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
When I talk to people about showers (rarely) I usually speak of double catches, that way everyone knows straight away what I'm trying to say. 10 double catches = 10 left handed catches...
A quick bit of Kremo for you:
http://juggling.tv/16928
#Catch2018
Are there good coaches (teachers) in Juggling? I am beginner is Juggling with 7 mo experience and the advice I most freguently got from obviously advanced guys sounds like "Keep practicing" )) I am pretty good coach in Karate (4 degree black belt) and Chess (International Master in Blitz) and to my non-humble opinion advice like "keep doing" is total disaster. Even pretty good tutorials lack extremely important thing, that is transition from preliminary exercises to full patters. Niel's video on 3 b Box is typical example of BAD tutorial because it is very superficial. From the other side Niel's video on "W" pattern is very GOOD )) So I repeat my question : are there GOOD teachers in Jugging World ?
Box is quite difficult trick when you just start with it, so it isn´t easy to describe it and teach it, especially on the video. It is much easier to teach somebody something in real life because you can see mistakes and errors and give advices. When I have workshops, I am able to teach people to juggle at least 3 balls if they really want and try, but it is just because I see how did they try to juggle. If they just write me why I can´t learn it, I have no idea what is their problem. Maybe it would be much better for you to make a video of your box attempts so we could give you better advice)
It is also a question who is a good teacher - because it is not only in the teacher but also a client or student has to try and have a motivation to do it)
what I mean GOOD coaching is helping the client to go through several easy understandable steps as I can explain "Ura-mawashi-geri" that is pretty complicated karate kick. And I am 100% sure I can teach everyone not depending age, sex, or religious affiliation )) I have got the advice here to try 441 and the first preliminary 2b exercise was very useful to improve my juggling "feeling" as a whole. I guess I have my own way in this art ))
I do karate too, so I know^^ Wish you a good luck with the box and glad tvar that my advice helped a little
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Richard Kennison and Yuri (from Russia) come to mind as two legendary juggling coaches.
I'd like to think my tutorial videos are reasonably good. Here's one on siteswap that I made about siteswap: https://youtu.be/rWQXOHn3sw8 It's a little old, and will probably someday get wrecked by Youtube changing how annotations work, but it did teach my non-juggling grandmother siteswap!
The transition from exercises to full pattern is an interesting point. I recall Ivan Pecel's DVD Advanced 4 and 5 Ball Moves pretty much always ending with "and now that you have done it on either side, run it" which often worked okay for me. I can think of some examples when running the pattern introduces problems that flashing did not: with 645 with the 6s as fountains, make sure you keep those 6s rolling out far enough to not cause collisions. What are the problems you're running into in the particular tutorials you're watching? Do you think there are generalizable difficulties across patterns?
Back in 2011 I made a list of attributes of good vs bad tutorials. Finding it now would be a nightmare, but I'll be redoing some of that research because I'm going to be involved in the IJA making some tutorials soon (I hope!). Maybe I'll start a new thread for it.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
"Here's one on siteswap that I made about siteswap"
Great proofreading, Mike! Still a bit drained from the IJA.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Of course there are good teachers! But YouTube is not necessarily the best medium for good teaching...
I'm sure I could teach you the box if we met in person... Also I'm a fan of the methodology of Craig Quat, he explains some of it on vimeo and is now training teachers all over Europe.
On a higher level, I have interviewed juggling teachers such as Jay Gilligan, Sakari Mannisto and Gregor Kiock, if you look up Juggle Jabber on YouTube you'll find them. I would say they are good teachers, although they don't really discuss the subject of learning single 3b tricks such as the box...
Craig Quat - good idea running balls. I was doing it on inclined surface, but using lines will be much better for stability. I guess I can build Craig's board myself. Now I am pretty sure I will learn Box and 4 balls stuff in nearest 6 months. Thanks a lot!
There are good teachers out there. I think the best thing is if you can get to a juggling club or juggling conventions and there you will often find very helpful, knowledgeable people who will gladly help out your juggling (and they are usually pretty good).
I think what can lead to huge progress in juggling is to progress as quickly as possible to 5 ball juggling and to learn siteswap notation. With siteswap notation learnt, you will have the ability to put patterns into freely and widely available simulators and watch them in slow-mo at various heights and speeds, hugely helpful. With 5 ball juggling learnt, you will have the fundamentals of juggling down. I don't know what your current juggling level is? But I would advise to try to go through 4 & 5 ball juggling until you are making 100+ catch runs of 5 balls (or around 25+ seconds), at which point, you will have a level of control sufficient for numerous tricks.
I have spent ~10 years teaching circus skills, including juggling and can help you out if I know your level.
Thanks for the comments. I seriously doubt you will teach me, the 67 old guy, who started juggling 7 months ago ))) selfteaching with no juggling club or convention. I am just at the beginning level haveing 3 b cascade, reverse, "W" over 100 catches plus stable 3b cascade in laying down position (because it is good for my old spine) Right shower up to 37 catches. I will be completely satisfied with stable LEFT shower + stable Box )))
If you will be happy with box, then it will not be too hard. It will also be worth learning some other tricks other than just focusing on shower & box, to improve your throwing, catching and understanding of juggling in general. It might be a less painful path to left hand shower and box in that case. Usual beginner tricks are:
441: https://youtu.be/2jmL-T1IdSY <-- This guy does good tutorials. Unfortunately, mostly for the intermediate 3 ball juggler
Two in one hand: https://youtu.be/_LZKSyhj__g?start=216
Tennis: https://youtu.be/XPILocujjqQ
Windmill: https://youtu.be/cSMkfVuV5hM
I think the first two should also fairly directly help your box, whereas tennis and windmill, while improving your overall ability, will not focus as hard on exactly what box and LH shower need. 441 helps you learn the '1' throw in both directions, crucial for box. Two in one hand, particularly in your left hand, will improve your speed & accuracy in the weaker hand perhaps more than anything else you could practice at this stage.
Stephen Meschke - - Parent #
Have you considered a program like this one? Its an affordable way to get high quality coaching advice. Along with instructional videos, Juggling Mastery students are granted access to a private Facebook page, where the instructor (Lauri) is consistantly answering questions and doing live video calls.
Here's an interesting article with interviews with Dan Holzman, Jay Gilligan, Richard Kennison and Paul Arneberg, "Juggling Coaches", by Scott Cain on IJA's juggle.org.
I've attended classes with many great teachers, I'm thinking of Sean Gandini, Jay Gilligan, Wes Peden & Matt Hall in particular. In each case what made them great for me was their individual enthusiasm & their ability to open my eyes to new possibilities & ideas. The teaching in terms of breaking down the mechanics of individual tricks was not important to me.
I would guess that the vast majority of jugglers I know are mostly self taught like me. I think there is an expectation in the juggling world that you should develop your own unique style which shuns rigid coaching. If I want to learn a new trick I will always want to figure it out my own way of doing it partly due to a desire to be unique, partly because I enjoy figuring things out on my own & partly due to simple arrogance. I don't think I'm alone in this which I believe explains why there aren't many juggling coaches to choose from.
Anthony Gatto & Jason Garfield have tried & failed to make a go of the professional juggling coach to hobby jugglers (as opposed to circus school teachers which I think is a different thing entirely) in the style of music/dance/martial arts instructors that exist everywhere. Anthony Trahir seems to be doing ok for himself, as does Lauri Koskinen (who is a new name to me), I wish them both success.
I vaguely recall Erin Stephens(?) who put out a video which was a good example of effective coaching. It showed the juggling of a group of young girls that she had trained, all of whom were very accomplished & had a style that clearly came from one instructor (eg. I recall a particular under the leg catch where the right hand goes inside the right leg & the ball is caught on the outside that many of the girls performed very well).
Help with Box needed. My humble guess is that Box offers very useful skills that are good for everyday life. So I have practiced enough with two balls and can shift balls horisontaly reasonably well. Can you, guys, suggest me some preliminary exercises that lead to "full-fledged" Box pattern. Thanks in advance
Learn 3 ball shower in both directions and you should be able to do box very quickly. Box is basically a sync shower changing directions every throw.
No other way? I can do 3b shower (right), but not from left. I guess I am damned and just need more prayers...
You don't need to pray. You need to practise more with your left hand.
When you got the synchronous shower from the left fairly stable, change directions: 4 left, 4 right, 3 left, 3 right, 2 left, 2 right, 1 left, 1 right and there you are, that's the box.
Little Paul - - Parent #
I like the way Niels Duinker breaks it down here:
https://youtu.be/jc72delE8bw
That’s pretty much how I approached learning it
yes, sounds as good idea. I doubt there is direct transition between Shower and Box. Some advice to watch Niel's video and it is also not a good advice
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Sometimes it's best not to think too much about it. It's why I recommended the cross arm reverse cascade.. if you can already do a reverse cascade then you can do it by 'seeing through it' - 'forget' that your arms are crossed and jumping straight into it.
Once you can do the two ball box then you're ready. You can stand in front of a bed (so you don't have to keep bending down to pick up) and keep trying to do it with three balls. The video above (Niels) is the best way to go about learning it. Try to keep the vertical throws their same columns and the horizontal ball is thrown with some force. The more still your arms are the more solid your box will be.
Practice a little bit but as often as possible.
Thought of the Day
Yesterday, when flashing 9b, I had this reflection \thought \insight \enlightenment(?), that juggling or getting your pattern up, then keeping it rollin', is very much about shifting focus, how you shift focus from one aspect or from one property of the pattern and-or your hands' ado, to the other.
Let me explain, give an example or two: when flashing nine, ..
- first, I focus on the first slow well aimed ball (kind'a paired with the second weakhand ball not awarely aimed, but following stronghand's throw, also slow), but also on being prepared to fire up the rest,
- then I focus on keeping that first ball spotted and orienting all the rest of the balls along that first ball's height, flighttime and trajectory in space (relative to the optimal front plane),
- then - if all goes well and all 9 balls up built a nice shape - I can focus on aiming the rethrows through the middle of my pattern.
- the next step, I'm currently working on, is to shift focus to pattern's top only and firing all rethrows into a hopefully well shaped top of my pattern focussing on the upper last ball up or upper three balls (maybe five) only.
when correcting, ..
when doing 7 balls or 5 balls and the pattern is ongoing and let's say somewhat stable, and my focus lies on for example simply doing left--right--a.s.o., or focus lies on in case the right height to keep, or in case on tuning the rhythm, or in case on reducing dwelltime. There might then be an outbreaker to bring back into pattern, and again the focus shifts to where exactly that ball lands, on spotting it, and on how its `wrong´ position in spacetime relates to my frontplane or the to the rest of the intact pattern, and focus lies on how and where I have to throw it in order to get it back into place.
All this happens within millisecs and is partly automized and-or unaware, but when learning, before having gotten there, these shifts of focus are maybe a major aspect of getting there, be they unawarely naturally found or rather by reflecting.
#JugglingWisdom (?) #focus #flashing #ThoughtOfTheDay
That's a lot of analysis. When I try 9, I pretty much just throw them up there best I can and hope for the best! I think it's good to not overthink these kind of things and trust that practice will improve it.
Hm .. it just doesn't come to me naturally, and by practising planlessly or unreflected, I might not get anywhere on that high level.
And also, I'm always in hunt for understanding what exactly goes on like in the brain when juggling, and hopefully find some kind of essence of how learning works best. And I some day want to understand what ``mastership´´ means.
I believe, knowing what to exactly focus on and when exactly, and also what there might be to anticipate, can help to find into higher levels and overcoming presumptive own personal limits.
And I wasn't referring to 9b only, .. I think, switching focus might be essential for juggling in general, like also for learning siteswaps.
But, yeah, .. trust that practise will improve it.
sounds good and I feel that too over the long run. And, indeed, doing without thinking gets me my best most fluent runs, but first I need to work myself into that mindstate going through all crucial issues one by one to refind back into automation every stint.
I think that natural subconscious learning plays a big part of it, but there will always be those local maximums in the learning space that are difficult to get over that way. Some techniques in juggling can be counter intuitive at first. Watching better jugglers can always help but there are some thing you can't see. I'm always thinking of new variables to focus on, but they're not always things that are easily described and communicated.
pretty much just throw them up there best I can and hope for the best!
LOL! I was thinking the same! but...
Let me share the way I see it.
Once upon a time I've discovered that the different things I've studied/practiced/learned in my life where interacting in my brain and, in some cases, helping each other.
For example, when I first began studying drums I was able to play pretty hard rythms, with different patterns on each limb (left hand, right hand, left foot, right foot), and I came to the conclussion that it was "a-little-less-hard" to me than to the other new players in my class, thanks to the coordination and disociation learned with juggling.
Now, when studying the cello I also had to break apart the challenge into little manegable tasks.
(like, you first learn the basic movement with the bow, then harder movements with the bow, then start pressing the strings with your left hand, and only then you start playing actual music)
The idea is that your body learns the basic movements well enough that you don't need to think each aspect of it ALL the time. Your body alone goes through the motions automatically, and your brain is free to think about notes, rythm, volume, etc.
I think juggling is the same. I've spent the last 5 months getting better with 7b, you know. Last week I've finally done it, made a qualifying run, and I think I got there thanks to the many hours of getting "familiar" with the 7-throw, using just 1 or 2 balls, and then letting my hands do their job when I grab the 7.
And me, I try to put my mind in a "focused-blank" state, if that's possible (like really focused, but blank... I really don't know how to put it better.. haha)
So, in conlusion, let it go, don't overthink, and trust your hands. You'll get it! :)
Two keywords come to my mind .. for different things interacting in the brain, helping each other
- synergy, i think, nails that; .. for focussed, but blank
- yeah, that's a queer state of mind, not always easy to get there when mind is `busy´ wanting sth, trying sth, utterly relaxed, .. maybe that's a ``relaxed alertness´´ or readiness, a standby-state of mind, ready and prepared to react fullspeed and full focus anytime when necessary without any ground-tension, only with that Qi to the point. I feel, it's got a bit of trance or self-hypnosis, too, maybe.
I'm not sure, how the notions of ``being in a tunnel´´ or ``in the zone´´ relate to this.
But it's also different when relaxing and getting prepared before starting, or else during an ongoing pattern.
it's got a bit of trance or self-hypnosis
haha! totally!
and its hard to get there when you're into hard stuff, alrright.
but, it's worthy. and at the level we are juggling we need to train our minds as well as our bodies.
what I try to do before each run is visualise the perfect run I want, then toss the balls and start counting in my head the number of catches.
with 7b I go 1 (when the first ball, yellow, comes down into my hand), then 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are red balls, then 1 again. so it keeps my mind busy.
with 5b I count rounds (like only count the times the first, yellow, ball hits my hands) so its 1 - - - - 2 - - - - 3 - - - - (where each "-" is a red ball) and then multuply by 5.
this gives more time to think..but then again, 5 it's kindda easy allready.
But i digress... what I meant to say, is to keep your mind occupied in the count, so it won't start overthink the throws and everything.
#mentalTechnique #theZone #counting [for better finding related threads later again]
Sometimes, esp. when I ran into some mental barrier (of amount of catches), I'd rather not want priority on counting, but rather on the pattern, thinking nothing, but "up--up--up--a.s.o. (or alike)" in snapped-in beat, or to only count ``unawarely, subconsciously, automized´´ (if that's possible) or if there's brain cells left for counting while focussing on the pattern, on doing right in the first place. Or I then try to think nothing at all and just watch the balls fly. But my uncounted runs, utterly delved into the ado only, are rare.
What do you think, where is the border between juggler-amateur and juggler professional?
I think it depends on every person whether they consider themselves amateurs or professionals, but I am interested what do you think it means to be pro - to juggle or dance with fire? To juggle solidly 7 balls? To break a world record? To win competition at WJF? To know a lot of juggling tricks and can do creative shows? Does it mean, if you are pro, that balls will never fall in your show?
Little Paul - - Parent #
The border is quite simple.
Do you make the majority of your income from juggling?
Yes - you’re a professional juggler
No - you’re an amateur juggler
For sure. And maybe being able to arrange your life around your juggling income, supporting a family, a household, a car, insurances (in case of injury or sickness) an' all, some spare budget; and that means also when things are workin' out against you (in life or as a juggler) at times. You would mostly depend on your juggling.
For me, I guess, it would mean to do dropless. To entertain people well.
There's so many occasions and setups for where and when to juggle for money, in pedestrian zones, at traffic lights, at festivals, on markets, at events of any kind, for tourists on ships, at hotels, on beaches, give workshops for jugglers and non-jugglers, at camps, teach in a circus school, have gigs at a varieté, in events-bars, discos, therapeutic teaching juggling for rehabilitation or for mental support or as part of an ergotherapy, have an own studio, be a wandering mobile jester, is what I can think of ad hoc.
So there's many decisions to take and many things to find out where and when it would work best also long-term like where do people's wallets sit loose, what do people expect and want from a juggler, how can you make what you have to offer an ``event´´, sth they won't easily forget and worthwhile for people to pay for.
And all this is not yet speaking of skills being utterly ripe for stage, not speaking of mastership versus "got it once per stint" and doing on highest and secure level enabling you to entertain while juggling.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
I've become a professional juggler by caring less about juggling and more about performing whenever I'm on stage.
Are you just a good juggler? Amateur.
Are you a good juggler, good performer, have knowhow about costumes, music, dancing, devising shows, collaborating, creative writing, promoting yourself and getting paid for your juggling? Probably a professional.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Pah, I've seen loads of examples of bad jugglers and good performers (who perform juggling). Or, at least, they do no good juggling in their show. Let's not overidolize the pros.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
I used to think that loads of performers were bad jugglers, but the longer I am in this business the more I realize most performers choose to not do great juggling even if they can.. Including myself, on stage I show at most a third of my skill level...
Mike Moore - - Parent #
I've been disappointed way too many times. There are tons of buskers, as well as cushy-job pros that I wouldn't describe as "good jugglers" even if their act contained only 10 % of their skill level. It's fine, I get it, juggling isn't their profession as much as performing is.
There are tons of (juggling-mainly) buskers in Ontario that are pretty bad jugglers. Even at the Toronto Buskerfest, where there are many international performers, the juggling tends to be pretty lackluster.
I also recall Luke Burrage (I think? In one of the really old podcasts) complaining about buskers who only do 3 object cascades with different things. I don't think the trend is unique to North America.
All of that said...when I went to a Japanese busking festival, there were JJF/IJA winners/placers as far as the eye could see.
These "bad buskers" probably have their own reasons why do they juggle in public even if they can't do it on a high level. In Czech Republic where I live there is a lot of buskers but I have never seen a juggler among them, only musicians and others.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Oh, it can be very effective at getting money in a hat. Which is why I wouldn't describe them as bad buskers, but would describe them as bad jugglers.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
There is a point where I would not consider these performers "jugglers", perhaps entertainers or buskers. I wonder how they see themselves, but I doubt that someone who sticks to the three cascade with different objects see themselves as jugglers in the first place... I hope not :p
Mike Moore - - Parent #
They've certainly advertised themselves as such :(
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I don't remember the exact podcast, but I think my opinions have evolved a bit. I don't mind buskers who only do three object cascades with different things. Now I have strong thoughts about american-style comedy jugglers whose performances are based around telling dad jokes while juggling three object cascades, and never have anything funny going on *except* the dad jokes and maybe the intrinsic hilarity of the weird objects being juggled. If the comedy isn't somehow connected to the physicality of juggling or the performance of juggling, and just what someone says or holds, I personally find it very hard to enjoy or appreciate. Conversations with this type of juggling never seems to be about juggling, only about joke writing, but I have zero interest in conversations about writing jokes, and if I did have interest in writing jokes, I'd being hanging out with standup comedians, not jugglers.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
It was one of my favourite episodes...I think you also talked about one particular busker who would gather a crowd, then demand prepayment, then cancel the show because he didn't receive enough money. Rinse and repeat.
Because of this thread I was trying to figure out whether I'd consider this person to be a bad busker. Since I've had mostly bad experiences with buskers (in the wild), I see a busker's priority as making money, leaning my answer toward, "No, he accomplishes his goal as a busker". But I don't know how prevalent that attitude/prioritization is, and if it varies depending on the type of skill performed (juggling, balancing, beatboxing, etc.)
Little Paul - - Parent #
He sounds more hustler than busker to me.
mike.armstrong - - Parent #
Daniel can give his own answer - but I saw him perform at BJC and I think he did give his best.
He gives his best performance, which isn't the same as his hardest juggling tricks.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Mike is correct! I want to make the best performance, and that doesn't work if I have to concentrate on the juggling. This seems to be the same for the high end technical jugglers too... Anthony Gatto did tricks in training way beyond what he did on stage.
Sergei Ignatov's warm up included doing his whole 5 ring stage sequence with 7 rings...
The people who perform at the top of their juggling skill level are often regarded as bad performers, at least by me. On a convention open stage this can be fun, but they fail in show business.... I don't want to call out names, but often I've seen videos of acts that really impressed me, but when I saw them live they were either droppy or really didn't know how to deal with the stage...
Even in youth circus this is a thing. As a kid I always wanted to show off my best moves of course, but recently I've seen some acts from youngsters who chose to keep it simple, and that has made their work so much more interesting to watch! :)
Little Paul - - Parent #
I think of it as risk management.
The absolute hardest stuff you can do, is inherently risky. You can't hit it every time [1]. If you put that in the show, it'll be droppy and that makes audiences feel uncomfortable.
Training well above the level of what's in your show makes the stuff that *is* in your show more reliable, less risky, less droppy.
Reducing that risk leaves space in your show for the other performance aspects that are required to give the audience a pleasing experience.
For most performers, a happy audience leads to more work (And that's as true on the street as it is on cruise ships as it is on a variety stage or circus ring) - which is important if performing is how you pay for your rent/food.
I've heard several people claim that in some environments (eg cruise ships) some bookers will not rebook you if you drop. So putting your top 10% hardest tricks in the show is a poor business decision.
After all, as they say - "Show Business" is at least as much Business as it is Show.
-Paul
[1] Or "reliably hit it on the third time" which is the traditional "circus" trope for hard stuff
I went to a workshop with Donald Grant once.
He said something along the lines of: 'If you fill your routine with tricks which you can hit 90% of the time, then your routine as a whole will be 90% drop free'.
The wording may well have been different but the message is very clear.
If you are happy with a few more drops in the routine as a whole then you could include some more risky tricks. If you want a dropless performance, then tone it down.
As LP says, its all about risk management.
Cheers Jon
(I love that quote from Donald so I bang it out every chance I get!)
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I was a guest at the Russian Juggling Convention last weekend, and one of my duties was to judge the IJA Regional Competition. There are six factors that are rated out of 10:
Entertainment Factor
Difficulty of Juggling
Execution of Juggling
Creativity of Juggling
Non-juggling Performance Aspects
Representative of Juggling
The two acts that I rated the highest, and who went on to win the top two prizes, were both so obviously the most professional, and it wasn't due to the non-juggling performance aspects. The thing that made me think they were the most professional was the difficulty level of tricks they chose and how well they executed them. Once an audience member can relax, knowing the performer is in control, it allows them to enjoy the act as a whole. Drops get in the way of the flow of the act and interrupt any character work.
Also there were a number of acts who never landed their final trick. Some didn't get it due to failing once, then running out of time or music (which has lots of easy solutions). Others tried a few times, and failed every time, and then gave up (which also has easy solutions: pick an easier trick or practice more). But in all cases, it destroyed the entertainment factor scores AND the performance scores along with the difficulty and execution scores. Nothing is more annoying than bringing me close to the climax and then stopping before we arrive!
I'm glad it isn't true that cruise ships won't book you again if you drop, in my experience, because my show is about failure and overcoming failure, and I drop plenty in my show. But what I ALWAYS do is nail the final trick, on cue, to the music, even if it means replaying the final 20 seconds of the music again to do so (which I actually do on purpose to build tension).
I'm with Daniel when it comes to being disappointed by big name jugglers who look impressive in videos but then drop too much. Pavel Evsukevich is probably the most disappointing, having seen him perform twice live now, and never seeing him land his final trick, despite a total of maybe six or seven attempts. One performance was at a juggling convention, so whatever, but the other was at a ticketed public event, not for jugglers, and he didn't get close to convincing me he was in control at the end of his act. It's a real pity, because I'd love to see someone do 9 rings with a head bounce!
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
I saw that same ticketed public event on another date and had the same bad experience, he was definitely on my mind when I wrote my post....
I am neither pro nor amateur. I classify myself as a hobbyist, I do it for fun, not money.
I haven't checked the dictionary, but in my head (and maybe only in my head) I feel like there is a difference somehow.
Like, if it was golf, a golf amateur would enter local tournaments, but a golf hobbyist wouldn't. Not that there are juggling tournaments as such. An amateur might aspire to be a professional, a hobbyist wouldn't.
I'm not sure how to verbalise it, but there is a difference to me, a difference in attitude or approach or something.
Peter's right in terms of the derivation of the word. You're right in real-world examples. LP's right in his answer to the original question.
All right!
Little Paul - - Parent #
I think the original poster might have meant something slightly different to what I answered though.
I think the intent might have been “what do I need to be able to do to call myself a professional” - which is subtly different.
Then again, there’s also “what does professionalism look like?” - which in my mind is different again, and the gold standard answer to that one is Luke Wilson in my book.
I am interested in all answers, but you are right, I was thinking a lot what it is - professionalism. Because some people who call themselves pro are bad jugglers and some very good jugglers don't call themselves in any way.
Also when a person is amateur and tends to be a professional, there is time when they tell themselves: Now I am pro, not more amateur. Or they ask themselves what to do to be a professional. I'm interested in these reasons and answers and I am happy for all answers here)
Yeah, to be technical, if you make money from juggling, you're a professional. If you don't, you're an amateur / hobbyist. It's that simple.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
There’s not much in the way of financial reward for juggling. Sure, some people earn enough to get by but there isn’t much incentive, financially. So the word ‘pro’ isn’t really associated with being highly skilled or ‘expert’ as it is with other things like basketball, football, golf etc. The rewards of juggling are purely internal.
I think it is closer to say that there is no financial reward for juggling per se. There is a financial reward to being a good entertainer and that doesn't mean the same thing at all. In fact the people who are most entertaining are generally around the median skill at juggling because their energies are better spent on working out how to be entertaining. Your comparison with sports is misleading, juggling isn't a sport (for professionals). Juggling can be better compared with the arts. If you look at music and compare the earnings of a virtuoso musician with those of a popular musician then that is a closer representation.
Nigel
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Yes I take your point - a wealthy pro musician isn't necessarily a highly skilled musician. And people don't pay to see juggling skills that are used to defeat other jugglers for entertainment (I was thinking of other skillful manipulation of balls as examples).
There is also far more financial incentive for a musician. Like a sportsman/women, they can use their skills to massive financial reward, they can become superstars but jugglers can't. The same is true for entertainers that use juggling.. perhaps the odd extremely rare occasion.
There are about twice as many people employed in theatre, media and performing arts as there are in employed in sports, inluding coaching, in the UK. I admit circus is just a small branch of the theatrical arts, but there are only 17,000 professional sports players, all sports, in the country, compared to many millions of amateurs.
So I think the ratio of professionals to hobbyists is actually much higher in circus and juggling than in sports - it seems much more likely to have full time professionals turn up at your local juggling club and spend two hours practising/drinking tea/chatting than is in football or rugby league! (Put it another way, many sports are so much more popular that the percentage who ever make it as professionals is tiny.)
The Office for National Statistics, https://www.ons.gov.uk
The specific data set was EMP04, Employment by Occupation, April - June 2017, https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbyoccupationemp04
There are 18,000 ship and hovercraft officers, but only 6,000 knitters and weavers.
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