Forum

Search posts
Forum index

View older threads

Orinoco -

Siteswap transition generator!

I mentioned a while ago I had a quick & dirty transition generator. I've been tinkering with it for a few weeks & would now like to present my slightly cleaner version.

It handles transitions from/to asynch, synch, & multiplex siteswap in all permutations.

The asynch to synch / synch to asynch transitions have lead me to add another couple of characters to the siteswap syntax. I've created a help page: What do the / and + characters mean? Feedback on the clarity of my explanations would be much appreciated. I feel adding these characters is clearer & less likely to tie the user up in boolean logic than the method used in Pedro's transition generator.


Other features:

It comes up with a lot of multiplex transitions skipped over by other generators.

You can click on a transition to view a pretty(?) diagram showing the transition.

You can cycle through entered siteswaps to experiment with different entry/exit points.


Please note when working with higher numbers/longer siteswaps it can get pretty resource intensive so you may have to be patient!


#NewFeature

BasB - - Parent

Wow, that’s great! Thanks for making and sharing this. Ran a few examples and to me it seems to work well, great visualization with the ladders too. Those multiplex transitions I had never considered before - super interesting! Will check out some sync to async and vice versa later.

Adrian G - - Parent

This is really cool, thanks for making it! I really like that it shows the diagrams :)

Your notation is interesting but I personally find standard siteswap much clearer for these types of transitions and also more general, but maybe I'm just too set in my ways. All the implicit things happening in the background here confuse me, I think a + is +1 and add an x and the / is adding a 1x to the hand that's not throwing first (at the same time as the first throw) if going sync-to-async and simply adding a 1x if going the other way? I.e. (4,4+)/4 => (4,5x)(4,1x)! and 4+4/(4,4) => 5x41x(4,4). At the very least it feels worth including the siteswap in a JugglingLab link to a simulation of the transition. That said, it is kind of nice that it forces transitions with a 1x and doesn't view the 1x as part of a separate transition throw instead of part of the second siteswap, so maybe it is a better notation for most cases.

As to the actual explanation, all your beat numbers in are half what standard siteswap says (a 4 is now thrown again 2 beats later), not sure if this was intentional or not.

The diagrams show simultaneous throws at different points on the horizontal axis which I normally view as time. Also for (4,4+)/ for the default ones, it looks like it's actually showing (4,4+)(4,4+)/ the way I'd read it as it doesn't show the simultaneous catch followed by the 1x. I assume this was all to keep the diagrams simple like the notation, but I find that a bit odd.

Also really like the multiplex transitions, makes a lot of sense that they're possible but I also don't think I've seen transition generators give them either.

Orinoco - - Parent

Thank you BasB & Adrian for the encouragement & feedback.

Both the JugglingLab help page & JuggleWiki acknowledge 'odd' & 'unusual' things about the notation. I feel that the notation used by JugglingLab breaks too many established rules (x means a crossing throw, even throws only in synch, x only used in synch etc.) to be easy to follow. I also don't like the mixing of synch & vanilla notation, it forces you to look that little bit closer to determine which is which.

If I ever get my head around the use of the ! symbol I'll have a look at toggling between both notations.

I've not seen diagrams drawn any other way for synch siteswaps (& is how I came up with converting synch to asynch before validating that I use everywhere). I kept the (,) notation in the captions to help highlight which throws are paired together which I thought was clearer than grouping the dots closer together (& the code for drawing the curves was easier!) Do you have an example of how you would draw it?

Orinoco - - Parent

I've now rewritten the help page so that examples consistently start from asynchronous patterns which helps keep straight what a beat is.

Adrian G - - Parent

New help page looks good!

I guess I don't care about those rules (tbh I never thought of them as rules before you said that). You only have even throws in normal sync because you're only throwing every 2 beats, you normally can't use x in async because it would mess up the alternating hands at an even rhythm and to me 'x' has always meant 'does the opposite of normal.' This is probably because I learnt sync and mixed sync/async at around the same time though...

You've probably heard this explanation of '!' a million times, but in case not, it means to leave out the implicit empty beat after a sync pair - e.g. in your tables in the help page, the sync throws are only every 2 beats on even beat numbers, using ! after a (4,4) lets you notate what happens on the next beat rather than two beats later.

I would either do something like one of these (top is closer to what you have, bottom is just a standard ladder diagram). Both unfortunately are still much more complex than what you have, however they keep straight that 4s are thrown again 4 beats later and 5s are thrown 5 beats later which to me isn't obvious otherwise, e.g. leaving out the 1x makes it look like the 4 is thrown again 5 beats later. But yeah they definitely end up more complex so may not be worth switching.

Orinoco - - Parent

Yeah, I've read several variations of that explanation. I think my problem is I don't 'see' the implied empty beat after each pair. I was never taught synch siteswap, I just worked out a way to make sense of it that I think is different to most other people's understanding.

I think Jack Boyce's vision of synchronous siteswap is two separate timelines, one for each hand that interact with each other through crossing throws. Whereas I consider a synchronous pattern to be one timeline where both hands still throw alternately, but the left hand throws 1 beat after the right and the right hand throws 0 beats 'after' the left.

Thanks for the example diagrams, although I agree both are much more complex.

David Bremner -

Training practice
I have been going for time catch records recently and was pondering a couple of things.
1. Focal Length. Where do you focus? eg On the balls / clubs (very short! - nearly crosseyed. Do you intentionally change your focus length?
2. How do you time / count your sessions? I did 1000 3 ball cascade catches and it was prob near 1200 by the time I lost concentration on the numbers a few times
3. Any advice on training for 'endurance' records, such as 3 club / ball cascades. btw, not looking at world records, just personal - I am 49 and brew my own beer!

Nick Huxley - - Parent

Hi David,

don't count. If you have to count then only 1 side and double it. Use tricks like going 1,2,3,..9,10,1,2,3..9,20.
You will start to drop if you are going 356, 357 etc. I always, always drop at significant number boundaries. It is actually quite funny. I can run a pattern for a while and then start counting and I still always drop at 198 even though I have done more throws that that due to the non counting part. Use a timer instead or listen to albums and use the tracks to time it instead.

I drop when I get bored as well so think about altering what you are doing a bit. Pushing the throws slightly high er over time can help especially if you need to correct due to a slight technique error that becomes apparent after a lot of throws. Or stand on one leg for a bit and then the other.

Practice looking through the pattern instead of at it and changing your focus a bit. If you are feeling vein then juggle in front of a mirror and look at yourself. I'm bad at this as when I am not club passing I tend to just zone in on the peaks or crossing points.

Hope some of that is helpful

Nick

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi, I count sets of 4 pairs of throws, 20 sets. then in blocks of those latter.
.. like, for 100 throws, I need 12 sets ( of 8 t = 96 throws ) plus 2 more pairs.

.. for 500 throws, I need 3 blocks = 60 sets ( of 8 t = 480 t ) plus 2 more sets ( + 16 t = 496 t ) plus 2 more pairs.

For speedy stuff, I sometimed count sets of 3 pairs of throws.

Sometimes I don't ( or try to not ) count.

go higher \ stand on one leg andor slightly sway weighting left foot right foot. maybe step back 'n forth a bit.

Then, mentally, to prevent concentration gaps, I sometimes imagine doing sth that doesn't stop, like being on a journey on the ocean or on train along endless birchwoods and still having a long part to go, or like jogging up an endless flat stairs with like two or three footsteps per stairsstep, or like making the tour of a zoo .. evtl plus on a camel's back ..
evtl plus kids around eager to witness me drop, or alike. you know ;oD

barnesy -

Siteswap Explorer app

My free juggling app Siteswap Explorer for iPhone and iPad has just gone live on the App Store.
Get it here: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/siteswap-explorer/id1549451272

Sorry Android/web app fans: I wanted an Apple app project. Other platforms aren’t on my radar at the moment!

The app is all about using siteswap rules to derive other siteswaps. You don’t type stuff in, you just press buttons to manipulate the numbers. The app will only give you the buttons that apply to the current siteswap. There are no wrong answers: you can just tap around whether you understand the theory or not!

Here's a quick video of some of the app's features in action: https://youtu.be/eT0SDcKKtbs

The app’s very much a work in progress. It does most of the things I initially wanted it to do but I have a big list of things to add and improve. A more immediate and intuitive user interface for swaps is high on that list! It would be great for me to get some feedback, which may help to steer me on the next changes.

The app can do the following operations...

From buttons on the main screen:
- add an object by adding 1 to all throws
- subtract an object by subtracting 1 from all throws
- increase a throw by adding the siteswap’s period to it, so you get something like the last pattern but with an extra ball popping out
- decrease by period (reverse of that)
- delete a throw
- extend the period by inserting another number (the number of objects) at the last possible valid position (e.g. 5353 becomes 53534)
- undo each step

The throw menu (click a number to get there) repeats the throw related operations but with an added ‘look before you leap’: each option shows what siteswap it will produce. It also gives a little more control:
- you can choose where to insert another throw, so for the insertion example above, 53453 becomes reachable.
- swapping. So for example swapping the first 3 of 333 by 2 places to get 531.

The siteswap menu (top right) does stuff to the whole siteswap:
- add object
- subtract object
- double (e.g. 534 becomes 534534)
- halve (e.g. 534534 becomes 534)
- dual
- time reverse
- showerify
- make one handed
- make two handed
- reset to default (333)

Each of those options only show up when they would produce a new and different siteswap and when the app can display that many characters.

Siteswap length is currently limited by screen width. On the smallest devices that’ll be 9 characters.

This first version requires iOS 11 or newer. If that’s too newfangled for anyone who would otherwise have wanted the app please tell me. iOS 11 is a nice limit for me because the code needs no OS version checks. But I can consider supporting some older versions if there’s demand.

The animator uses JMLib from good old JuggleMaster. Thanks for that to Ken Matsuoka, Per Johan Groland and Chunky Kibbles. Yes, the 1s are huge.

Nick Huxley - - Parent

That sounds cool. Annoyingly I only have Android as you know. I am curious to see your app coding skills.

barnesy - - Parent

Nick! Good to hear from you. Hope things are as good over there as wacky times allow.

The app coding skills seem to be doing OK. The 'oh crap, this is what happens when you don't get pretty designs handed to you any more' skills less so.

BasB - - Parent

Cool, it works well, thank you. Have explored just a bit so far, and havent found any serious issues. I particularly like the option to showerify :) Perhaps for a next version: even on iphone 11 the arrow buttons are a little small.

barnesy - - Parent

Thanks, nice feedback.

Would making the buttons more square (so taller) be enough to fix that? I'm hoping to not have to make those cells any wider! I haven't been able to test on many physical devices. Guess I'll have to try making my simulator window 'actual size'!

A new version is in the works with colour options (single/multi/orbit), a hopefully understandable (and understood) new UI for swaps, and maybe a few more options based on extending numeric sequences.

barnesy - - Parent

Which removes me that I have a semantics question. I want to replace the 'double' and 'halve' operations.

Instead of 'double' I want to have a button which would turn 534 into 534534 or to 534534534 if clicked again etc. It would append the shortest form of the siteswap.

And the other operation would make the siteswap as sort as possible.

Is there an accepted short (one word) description for those? Not sure if my guesses would match what others expect.

Extend? Lengthen?
Shorten? Reduce? Compress?

barnesy - - Parent

Reminds. Pesky lack of edit/proofreading.

Orinoco - - Parent

+cycle / -cycle?

barnesy - - Parent

Of course! Thanks.

The Void - - Parent

Agree!

Mike Moore -

Club Congress starts today!

And looks like it has exactly the kind of schedule I look for in an online event. A bajillion workshops and some other stuff that spans 12 or more hours/day. I think it's time to borrow my wife's clubs and learn some moves.

Schedule here: https://www.clubmotionjuggling.com/schedule?fbclid=IwAR1qQGGQVqBkKqdoiUClxwv0nwwXfCZdket9FlVMAMtjG2ID4rqSbnC59iM

Sauro Salomoni -

Hello.
My name is Sauro. I'm a juggler from Brazil, who is currently living in Tasmania, Australia.
I have been juggling on and off for about 15 years, and I'm planning to start training more seriously again. Meeting some local jugglers in Hobart would be great.

See you around.
Sauro

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hello & welcome, Sauro.

David Bremner - - Parent

Hi Sauro, I am in Hobart also. Bit windy for clubs outside tonight :-)
Small world!

David

5balls -

Happy new year everybody!

I think this video of Françoise Rochais deserves more views (The Rai commentator is kind of annoying though):

https://youtu.be/ZN-Au1hQnaM

Françoise Rochais has been a record holder for juggling batons (I think umbrellas as well but may be mistaken on this one and can't find any reference) for a very long time. I know of not many baton jugglers but I think they look very cool, especially when twirled.

Does anyone know about the "standard" geometry of batons if there is such a thing? It seems the ones Françoise Rochais uses seem to be weighted on just one end while in some sport twirling they seem to be weighted equally on both ends which would make quite a difference I suppose. Not sure if I'm going to get into this but if anyone juggles batons and has recommodations for good ones please share :). That is, if you can even buy them and don't make them yourself somehow.

Orinoco - - Parent

Happy new year to you too!

Françoise is fantastic. I remember when she headlined the BJC in 2012. A true pro, she didn't put a foot wrong. How long has she been performing now? (Googles... 37 years) She still looks like she genuinely enjoys performing.

Looking at the batons Françoise uses at 3:49 looking at the stoppers at the 'handle' end they definitely look like the sort of stoppers you get on majorette batons. I would guess these are majorette batons with homemade weights tied to the bulb end.

Batons used by majorettes come in all sorts of sizes. The 'correct' length to use for spinning is supposed to match the length from your shoulder to the end of your middle finger. I only know this because we used to have a majorette visit us at TWJC. She often brought her baton along, it was too short for me to be easy to use but it was very nice for flourishes & twirling through your fingers. From vague memory it was a little heavier than a European style juggling club & was weighted equally at both ends with a rubber stopper. I believe majorette batons are pretty expensive but I remember the one I played with was a very high quality piece of kit.

Little Paul -

Looks like Gerry Cottle has packed his trunk and said goodbye to the circus

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-55658380

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Lots of rather generous memories on FB (please sanitise your entire body after use) many of which agree that he was driven, opinionated, and also a thoroughly decent human being. He was certainly very sparky and fun to be around on the couple of occasions that I met him.

Here's The Grauniad's obituary - https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/jan/14/gerry-cottle-circus-showman-and-wookey-hole-caves-owner-dies-of-covid-aged-75

The Void - - Parent

Ditto. :-(

bad1dobby -

I'm shutting down my YouTube channel
...in a couple of weeks, so if you want any of the vids, now's the time to grab them.

https://www.youtube.com/user/bad1dobby

I think the juggling videos are pretty much all duplicated on my JTV account (same name), so they'll be there as long as JTV still exists.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Oh no! One of my favorite channels!
Any particular reason you're shutting it down?

Turbo 418 -

Turbo Fest ONLINE

A bit late, but not too late... for the unaware Turbo Fest will have a small presence on the internet for this year's festival.
All times are Quebec time (Eastern Standard Time). Show is at 7pm UTC.

Saturday January 9th (yup, right now!)
11 am - Workshop - Introduction to juggling (in French)
Midday - Workshop - Contact juggling with Thom Hardman (Bilingual)
2pm - TURBO SHOW! With a bunch of exclusive acts and lesser known performers.
3:30pm - Virtual chill-out after the show.

Sunday January 10th
2pm - Workshop - Bounce juggling siteswap with Nicolás Bustos Riquelme (English)
3pm - Workshop beginner hula-hoop with Maryeve Hula Gaudreau
4pm - Workshop intermediate hula-hoop again with Maryève.
Both of these are limited places private workshops, given in French, and must be signed-up for at info@turbo418.com

Turbo 418
#TurboFestOnline

Tufty - - Parent

Just watched the show. Very nice.

Mïark -

Unfortunately no BJC in Perth this year.

For those not on facebook this was posted today on the BJC facebook page:
Ahoy a'bdy,
All of us at BJC headquarters hope that you are all keeping well, and that you’ve had a good festive season! We’d say, “Happy New Year,” but that might seem a bit hollow, given what we have to say...
...OK, here goes.
We did our best over here, but we’ve sadly had to make the absolutely gutting decision to cancel BJC Perth.
Although there is now a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, we're still acutely aware of the unpredictability of it all, and while we're absolutely itching for things to return to normal, we just can’t gamble on the likelihood of a 500 person week-long sleepover being permissible come July.
We’re sorry, and we’re sad. A lot of work has gone into this event, and we can’t quite believe that it has just evaporated before our eyes...
But, we’re trying to stay optimistic! The Ramsgate team are primed and ready to make a start on their plans for 2022, and we know it's going to be AWESOME!
Anyway, I’m going to have a small cry, watch some juggling videos, and think about all of my juggling pals who I can’t wait to see (when it’s safe).
Take care folks, we’ll all see each other again soon.
❤️🧡💛💚💙💜🖤🤎
- Avril x


#BJC2021

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

I feel like Avril and the team pulled the short straw on this ... and then got another bonus extra-short exploding straw filled with glass shards and angry bees, just to fuck with their heads. Two cancellations! That's tragic for you guys, I'm so very sorry you were the poor unfortunates to have to suck this up, but I congratulate you on making the pragmatic decision in a timely fashion, twice.

Dog knows when we will meet again but it would be a privilege to buy a beer for any and all of the Perth orgs if I ever get an opportunity.

Tufty - - Parent

That sucks harder than electrolux, but it's understandable. Stay positive (but not COVID-positive), stay safe, and we'll all get back together when we get to the other side.

View older threads

Subscribe to this forum via RSS
1 article per branch
1 article per post

Forum stats