How do you cope with frustration?
Do you bear it and somehow get along with it, do you ``fight´´ it, do you try to find ``strategies´´ (whatever that might be) against it, do you try to avoid it, do you simply stop and have a break then stop for good that day or that session, do you simply do other tricks instead, do you try to find into a ``mindstate´´ patiently waiting for it to pass by, do you try to find the cause, do you .. well, how or what do you do?
I try to blow out some steam.. haha... I'm not good disguising my feelings..
If, like today, I'm in no good state of mind to confront my frustration, I just call it a day.
Tomorrow might be better :)
Some other times I'm able to stop, clear my head and keep it up. but not today.. haha
^^hehe .. I call them "good for tomorrow days" and be it only killing lifetime doing \trying the pattern ;oD for example in a lax, lazy way if nothing else would go.
.. but then - I've so often had totally sudden very good runs, like a quantum jump right amidst very bad training .. so anything is possible any time, and I wanna be prepared to jump such trains ( and not like do ``fixated´´ within or haunted \cursed by any bad feelings ).
I try to do another tricks and when I have just very bad juggling day, it is very uneasy for me to be calm and continue training, because I am quite a choleric person)) It helps me a lot to take rest, to watch any juggling videos or I love joggling - it is like juggling, but if I want, I can consider it just run)) So I can juggle and feel like I am not doing it :D
I think, I have no idea why is it so, that some days are very good for training, I can make a lot of personal records and some of them are lousy
no idea why is it so, that some days are very good for training, [..] and some of them are lousy
I think, it maybe comes from doing at the limit + (what I more and more observe on myself:) any different conditions - like when doing challenging stuff and not everything is well set, but sth disturbing or wind or cold or queerly lighted background everywhere or simply bad arms, then what you can normally do is simply harder under such conditions. On the other hand, great conditions don't grant for a new PR, not even always for good, fresh practise.
My rule of thumb is “if you’re not enjoying it, and no one is paying you to do it, stop doing it”
So if I’m working on something and get frustrated, I’ll stop and do something else and come back to the frustrating thing later or another day.
I do this with all my hobbies, not just juggling. Sure it’s not the “most productive” or “highest return” strategy, but it is the most fun
Yes, sounds so reasonable, .. just .. as soon as you're doing towards a goal, you'll often get into that dilemma of "How bad an ado can I bear and go on trying?!" for the sake of having to walk over stones to get to the stars. [hire a poet, anyone?]
First I try to calm down, take a deep breath, focus and see if I can figure out why things don't work. If that doesn't help, I usually switch to another trick. On a really bad day when it feels like nothing works, I try to do something I have never done before, or at least never been good at and not practised a lot. It could be just a new siteswap, but the idea is that if I have never done it before, I don't expect to get it so I don't get too frustrated by failing. And if I actually get the new trick the whole session feel a lot better. :)
Happy World Juggling Day! Link to Juggling Mastery World Juggling Day Video.
There is another thing I would like to talk about - when juggling 4 or 5 clubs, how much spin do you do? With 4 just one or two and with 5 two or three? Is there any difference for you? What is better and easier?
I am training now for 4 (I can´t even qualify now) and I feel that 2 spins are better and with 5 I can´t juggle at all, but I think that 2 spins are not too much - with 5 it is needed to juggle much higher.
So how do you do it?^^
I do doubles for 4 clubs. I might learn to juggle them on singles, too, but I don't practise that very often.
For 5 I'm also trying to do doubles. Have not got more than a flash yet, though.
For how long? Like, how long a practise session is, or how long I have been juggling? (My practise log could give you more detailed answers than I can write here.)
Anyway, I'm probably not the most ambitious jugger, I do want to learn five clubs some day but I'm not in a hurry and sometimes I don't practise it for weeks. I can't juggle five balls yet, either. Four clubs, though, I do every time I juggle clubs (except if it's in my living room).
When I was learning 4 clubs, I made a "mandatory warm up sequence" containing siteswaps with many 4s. I had to get that one at least once before I could practise anything I wanted. (I still use almost the same one as warm up, maybe I should switch to one focusing on siteswap 5 instead.)
So "mandatory warm up sequence" - it was like juggling a lot of tricks with 4 clubs or props in general?
Yes, I was asking about training because not everybody writes on Practice logs every training)
I admire you if you can juggle 4 clubs, do you have any advices please? I can juggle 5 balls, but my record is about 22 sec, I am not a good juggler but I would like to be)
It was a short 3-clob sequence to practise the throws in 4-club juggling. 3333423423441441444044144404413333 if you know siteswap. In the beginning I dropped often and had to try many times before I got that sequence, but I still think it was good warm up for trying 4 clubs afterwards. (I do log all my practise, with varying degree of detail, but I started juggling a few years before I started logging it.)
"lots of tricks with 4 clubs" is still a bit above my level, there are several tricks that I can do quite often but they are not solid.
So, advise for 4 clubs...
I assume that you can juggle 4 balls. Anything you practised to learn 4 balls is probably useful for 4 clubs as well.
Think about the angle of the club. When you do a fountain pattern you want the club to point a bit outwards when you throw it, to get a nice angle for catching it. In cascade, you throw it pointing inwards but catch it pointing outwards since you are throwing it to the other side, so this is the opposite angle while throwing to get the same angle while catching. (Clubs pointing in the wrong direction are hard to catch and more likely to hit your arms.)
Oh, and a friend of mine recommended trying 4c on singles quite soon, too. He says he didn't get 4c solid on doubles until he started practising it on singles, because that forced him to sort out any bad habits and do better throws. (I didn't really listen to this advise myself, I still can't do more than 10-15 catches on singles, but he is certainly a better juggler than I am...)
My record with 5 balls is 7 catches, so you are way ahead of me there. :)
I train 4 and 5 clubs frequently. For juggling four clubs, I usually do doubles. For juggling 5 clubs, I train both double and triple spins. This is how I rate the difficulty of those tricks (running for 40 catches):
Thank you for exhaustive answer)) It is exactly what I was asking for) But... Now I have feeling that juggling 5 clubs isn´t possible for me :DD
Juggling 5 clubs may not be physically possible for you, but I highly doubt that. The main consideration for me when scheduling my 5 club training is recovery. I am large and strong, and my body recovers from injury and exercise quickly because I eat and sleep well. When I train 5 clubs, I can do a lot of repetitions in one training session, and I can train 6 days a week.
If a juggler can only do a few repetitions (like 15 attempts at a 5 club flash) before having to stop for the day, it is going to take more time to learn the trick than another juggler who is physically capable of longer and more frequent training sessions.
So to juggle for longer time at every training it is needed to have all body strong and to have strong muscular arms? I am not still sure where my borders are, but when I try to juggle 4 clubs I have to stop after few attempts because the fell on my wrists and it is very painful.
Increasing strength will allow you to get a few more good repetitions in before it's time to stop. So, in addition to training juggling, it may be helpful to do some resistance exercises to build muscle and gain strength.
From your description, it sounds like you have some problems with your technique that are making juggling a lot harder than it needs to be. Personally, when I am having a good day with 5 clubs, I don't find juggling to be physically taxing. If I am having a bad day, I have to make corrections on almost every throw and that is a lot harder.
It's really hard to juggle 5 clubs. If you can't yet juggle 4, expect it to take quite some time! 4 clubs will feel easy when you can do even short runs of 5 clubs.
Probably 98% of people prefer 5 clubs with doubles as their base pattern. The doubles can be a bit loftier and slower spinning than you might use for 3 or 4. I'm a proficient 5 club juggler, and triples are a challenge for me to maintain for a long time since they're much more tiring and hard to get just right.
As others have said, doubles for 5c is the easiest choice.
I learned 4c in doubles and switched to signles instead once I could do about 30-50 catches of 4c doubles. Now I find singles was easier and more enjoyable (I don't have the patience to do doubles: it takes forever for the club to come down).
Hello, I would like to ask a question) Maybe there is somebody who has similar problem or who had have similar problem and was able to solve it :D
I juggle 5 ball cascade for about 6 years and there is no progress - my record is 22 sec, but I can´t improve it for a few years already - where is the problem? Can it be that my arms are still weak?
Usually my cascade ends because of collision of balls, it becomes too wide, I am rotating around with cascade, it is too low or any other strange problem. I try to keep my elbows near body and throw it slowlier, but it becomes faster and faster usually, that is a problem too.
Please, can anyone give any advice that would help? I am quite disappointed because a lot of effort and almost no result.
one question: how do you train for it?
I ask because since I first came to the forum I learned I was training without any method, and reading and asking to the people at the forum I got to improve the way I train, and got much better results, for sure!
What was really mind-blowing for me, is the "no-drops policy" and the pyramid training.
the no-drop policy says to Juggle only what you know you can keep in the air, if it's 5 catches, then just juggle 5 catches and collect.
combining with the pyramid:
10 times 5 catches
5 times 10 catches
2 times 20 catches
1 time 50 catches
This pyramid can be "moved up" when you manage to juggle it with little or no drops. Juggle like this every day and you will definetively see progress!
Keep it up and good luck!
I forgot to answer, I usually throw and catch as much as I can, so I will try this pyramid system
There are two plateaus early on in 5 balls which have easy fixes.
The first is caused by people concentrating so hard that they hold their breath (without realising it) so make sure you're breathing.
The second is caused by people concentrating so hard that they're forgetting to blink.
Eventually your body makes you do one or the other and your pattern falls apart. So take a step back from the numbers, chill out, and make sure that you're breathing and blinking.
If you're breathing/blinking ok, but are consistently rotating in the same direction, you can either follow it (and worry about correcting the rotation later) or try standing with one foot slightly in front of the other. If you're rotating to the right, put your right foot slightly further forward. If you're rotating to the left, put your left foot slightly further forward.
Hah, it's amazing how common those issues are. I had the breathing (and rotating) one with 5b and the blinking one with 7b.
Hi, are you getting into tensed juggling after those 20 secs, slaving to get more catches when long lost a smooth pattern with swift ado, with then arms rowing a lot? ( which then causes those problems you named )
I got over that phase, where tensions reveal, by ``hunting´´ for the easiest way, e.g. by going to early collects on slightest flaw. But mainly by this: ..
There's a difference when doing from wrist, giving thrust to get on the right height from wrist, aiming the last bit at release from wrist and fingers in a bit of a whippy way - it gives very hazardous throws at first, but one can learn to control these, learn to aim where the balls belong. ( I'm not sure, maybe how you play darts is a compare .. you don't throw with the whole arm lol, but aim and thrust from wrist and focus on where the dart should land. ) [ '.. very hazardous throws at first ..' ] .. but once you've gotten this speedy way of throwing plus aiming it well, it will help a lot for a) finding a smoother way to juggle 5b, b) getting back into that easier pattern after correcting while enduring.
This is not about having to do wristy all the time while enduring, but about having that way of doing for fast bail out phases to get back to stable pattern without having to fight too much.
I suspect, you can keep a good pattern up for those 22 secs, but you're lacking control, when it comes to enduring, to coping with single throws going slightly astray or the whole pattern drifting.
A good approach is to check all properties of the cascade pattern in their variations: do these exercises with 3 balls ( or with 5b ) to find out, where you maybe have a major skill lacking yet: juggling.tv/16767 It's, the vid, also doing all your problems on purpose (e.g. turning the way round your patterns takes you), and also counteracting them actively (e.g. turning the other way round) to get a hold of them all. You learn to control exactly your problems, pattern's width, it rotating, its height an' all with these exercises.
CATCH! juggling and circus festival in Cumbria UPDATE
Heres some images about the kids activities happening at CATCH! in July, as well as there being a free play area full of toys and games suitable for ages 0-5 and 5+, there will be a family film shown every day, two kids and family activities every day!
Mix that all in with the balloon room, magic workshops, two shoes a day and the ice-cream truck, well you got yourself a jam packed week with the kids!
Take a look at the poster in the link below for more detail on the activities offered.(scroll to bottom of home page link)
Side note: these activities (although geared towards children) are for everyone, they are fun, craft or outdoor activities we can all enjoy, young children must be supervised, it is not a creche service.
If you have a fun workshop or activity that would suit happening in the Kids Zone at CATCH! email firstname.lastname@example.org to tell us more
Tickets on sale here: https://catchfestival2018.co.uk/tickets
Hello, I’m new here. I started juggling about 45 years ago. Never got beyond three balls. I can keep four afloat for 5 seconds at most. But, I have juggled around the world (as I travel for chemist work). I’m getting to the point in life where retirement is approaching. I could sit in a chair like a responsible adult or get back into juggling. I need some help. HELP!
Great to have more chemists here, welcome! What kind of chemistry did you do?
I think getting back into juggling is really the responsible thing to do, with all that mental and physical exertion pushing off the symptoms of aging.
Get back to juggling! There are plenty of tutorials on Youtube these days to expand your trick repertoire.
Retirement sounds like an idea opportunity for finding enough time to learn new skills :)
Feel free to post questions/progress here (we're mostly a friendly encouraging bunch) but there's nothing quite like meeting other jugglers in person when it comes to learning new stuff, getting tips on how to improve, and generally having a lot of fun.
So check out the Clubs and Events listings here, and find something local you can go to!
Open Letter for Anthony Gatto:
"Hi there! I'm not sure if Anthony is going to read this, but I felt like I needed to reach out to him.
I've just learned about this company, and it seems to me like a smart investment, but it also seems like not the right place for you.
I'm a juggler too. been a juggler since I can choose my own acts. And never I've seen such a talented juggler like you are.
Of course I do understand your need to provide for your family, so I support you in this new project. But, I hate the fact that you need to do it. The world should give you the retirement you desserve!!
if I could, I'd send you money miself, haha, but I'm a poor music teacher in argentina.
I live in patagonia, where I teach and practice juggling everyday! I'm allmost qualifying 7 balls, wich is a life-long-dream that I'm not stopping untill i get.
Ok, Just that. I really admire you and I wish the world would give you the eldery days you desserve.
A big hug!
So I posted this on anthony's concrete company's site. I'm not sure he'll ever read it, but when i found out about all this I felt so blue... so sad for him... So angry at this fucking world where we circus artists are not given the place we desserve.
I mean, a stupid teen-pop-idol can earn millions of dollars with a simple hit record, and 5 minutes later nobody remembers him anymore, but after 30-something years of career, putting affort, putting your body and your very soul in it, performing on the gratests stages of the world (like vegas and cirque du soleil) you have nothing to show for it....
so sad... the deppresing truth...
The only thing that will keep me going now it's the fact that I don't do all of my practice to make a living, nor to be better than anybody else. I just do this cause I love it, and I want to get to be the best juggler I can be.
so, we circus artitsts, have the responsability to remember the great names of the past. Like anthony, like Rastelli, Cinquevalli, and so many others that played this beautifull game.
Well, that was heartfelt, but possibly also misplaced - Anthony seemed to embrace his new job with great relish once he finally announced his retirement from juggling, and has mostly avoided interviews and suchlike regarding his past as a juggling, focussing entirely on his new job instead. When you are as single-minded as Mr. Gatto appears to be, perhaps it is no surprise that he seems to have immersed himself completely in his new career.
In fact this wasn't even the first time he's turned his back on the juggling world, when he was in his late teens and apparently a bit burnt out he became a landscape gardener for a couple of years before thankfully returning to juggling for a couple of decades in which he systematically demolished most of the big solo juggling records.
Personally I'm thankful that he gave so much of his life to the juggling world, rather than disappointed that he has not given it all. What more does a guy have to do?
What sort of music do you teach? Tangos Argentinos and Astor Piazolla? Or something slightly more imaginative? What instruments do you play?
hi cedric, what you say may be truth, but I also thing you misunderstood me.
I'm not dissapointed of him leaving the game, i'm mad at this world where even one of the greatest of us have to do anything but juggling to feed his family. I mean, I'm sure he isn't begging, lol, but he should be able to just retire.
But I'm not sure I'm explaining myself.
Let me tell you a bit of my story, since you asked about me, maybe I can make it clearer.
I came to El Bolson, a little town amidst the mountains in patagonia, around 12 years ago from Buenos Aires, the city of chaos, temptation and corruption (haha, truly though) and I decided to stay here to study to be a luthier (you know, people who build musical instruments) in a state university, where I also studied cello.
In order to do that, and eat, I had to start working at any job I could find. Since here is not so easy to find a good job, I had to work in construction for several years.
I liked the job, that's not the problem, the thing is that is really incomplatible with the fine work over a violin, or, even more, to play cello.
Anyway, I was happy to do it, cause it let me stay here and study.
But Anthony, he has given it all, I'm not asking anymore from him. I just wish he could be harvesting the fruits of decades of hard work, zipping a margarita in some beach at the caribbean. :)
But yeah... meaybe HE just cant stay still, can he? haha
Me, I teach cello to little children, play percussion in an orchestra and also played the drums in a rock band till recently. Love piazzola, but I don't actually play any tango. more Classic stuff like mozart in the orchestra, and personally with my cello I try to study the bach suites, and expand my horizon playing rock, argentinian folk, or whaterver I can.
Anthony strikes me as the kind of person who would drive himself mad trying to sit on a beach doing nothing.
I'm not surprised at all that he wanted to find something else to do with his life (and I'm glad he quit at his peak, before his body started to fail him, as we're left with only his best work rather than a slow descent in his output)
Best of luck to him I say! I hope the change of pace is suiting him.
Ring or hoop isolations/manipulation
I’ve started playing with some 11” diameter steel rings recently (think jitter rings but without the noisy crap) and I’m interested in learning some isolation or other manipulation moves to go with them.
Does anyone have any sources they can recommend, either for tutorials that may be applicable, or for “inspiration”?
Fully inverted sprung cascade
The first of my endgame patterns. FINALLY got a qualify!!
This is really nice. How hard is it to run for longer periods do you think? Is the jump from inverted box to this super insane, or just insane?
Oh man, SUPER insane for sure. In my opinion, inverted box is somewhere between 4.25-4.5 ball difficulty. Inverted sprung cascade is somewhere a little ~6.25 ball difficulty. Inverted sprung fountain (https://www.instagram.com/p/BiFhmhsDHVU/) is probably about 7b difficulty. I can't run fully inverted sprung cascade for long enough to give it a nice number like the others, but it's the only one among that group that I have to mentally really psych myself up for and can't follow in real-time. It's much harder than inverted sprung fountain.
Who knows, though. Maybe I went through the learning process of it poorly and other ways would knock down its difficulty considerably. And there's always the added difficulty of being the first to do it. It'll be easier to gauge its difficulty when a few more people can wrap their hands around it.
There is a pattern that I thought of at IJA 2013 that seemed so conceptually clear (but non-obvious) and disastrously difficult. ~4 years ago I realized that there would be three interesting stepping stone patterns along the way. They were all so far above my skill level at the time, and I'm still not convinced they're all doable by me, but I set the very long-term goal to run them all before retiring from juggling. I reckon I can probably make progress on them until my early-mid thirties (other parts of life permitting), so there's slight urgency.
Fully inverted sprung cascade (FISC) is the first of those four patterns! In my opinion, patterns 2 and 3 aren't as cool as FISC, but pattern 4 would be a dream. I don't want to expose the later three patterns just yet, sorry!
4: I guess it's inverted 5 ball tennis. I also think you probably have at least until you're 40 to work on this stuff.
It would be nice to have until 40! Having injured myself a handful of times through juggling working on things like this, I'd be a bit surprised to make it to 40.
Can you tell me what you mean by inverted 5 ball tennis? Maybe Inverted sprung 5b cascade? (Which is not the 4th)
Yes, inverted sprung 5b cascade. Do you think that's even possible at all?
And let's hope your practice can make it to 40 and beyond! It's always good to see a new trick from Mike Moore.
I think it's possible, yes. I would guess it's even possible for me, but it would be very finnicky with all that 5b in not much horizontal space. Maybe in a year or two!
My practice will probably still be happening at age 40! Just on tricks less physically demanding with handspeed.
Amazing stuff Mike. It almost looks 'easy' in some kind of strange way. I can see there is almost no time to get from one throw to the next though, so it looks almost impossible too. You are truly pushing the boundaries!
I've been training for 7 balls these last 4 months. At some point I've got sidetracked by other stuff like 6b, bounce juggling and the long-lasting dream of 5 clubs.
now, the question is:
Try to dedicate 20-30 minutes of each training session (ideally as close to daily as possible) to 7 balls and you will see good (slow) improvement. All the rest of the time could go to anything. IMO learning 7 balls will make almost all other tricks you are practicing more easy and is one of the big milestones (the biggest IMO) to being an advanced juggler.
thanks man! and I totally agree. these days I've been trying this stuff that got me sidetracked, and I was surprised to see that it was easier for me than I thought.
But I also consider 5 clubs to be one of those milestones... I really want that too. haha
But the advice stands. I will save 20-30 minutes each session for my 7b. thanks!
Good luck with it! Be sure to post up your first qualify / 50 catches / 100 catches or whatever you consider a good milestone. IMO 5 clubs will be much faster to learn if you can get 50+ catches of 7 balls.
sure! I'm really close now! the other day got to 13 catches!! (to drop, not collected) but, i'm 1 catch away from qualifying:)
[ no advice - just maybe a take-it-or-leave-it helpful aspect here or there: ]
Doing 7b only is consequent and the direct way, at times stomping through the mud with strong will and decision. You can get (fixated and) stuck without knowing why, so getting feedback or asking what might be going bad, surely spares a lot of ``own investigation´´ (if you even notice that a change is necessary). You then get kinda behind with anything else you want to be able to juggle.
I think this is good for pushing when you feel, you're not far away from a next level that you have already felt while doing and gotten great launches or great patterns or smooth patterns kept up or done in an easier way or anything. Good for pushing smaller part time goals that you think lie near to what you can get soon.
Doing also other stuff with less balls or props or genuinely other stuff (e.g. while skating, or whatever) will make you have improvement and get used to the feeling of achieving something. You get an overall feeling for when tricks are ``ripe´´ or still too hard to spend a lot of time on, instead first breaking it down to their easier parts or elements and get that well done first (in a reasonable logical progression). It's simply fun to discover what all else juggling has to offer. ( But 7b was always my n° 1 priority and I spend the hugest time on them. )
I personally feel best with having my 7b priority ( nowadays 9b when I wanna take advantage of good conditions, in winter indoors, it was 5b rev ), but also always try to do a reasonable (minimum) amount of time for other stuff too.
But there's Haavard Hvidsten who seems to have no plan or doesn't commit to an overall structured practise, but more or less spontaneously takes up props to do whatever he likes in a moment, and it got him to worldclass juggling. And there's that "Gatto practise" doing many tricks a few minutes e-ve-ry sin-gle day. So, there's as many possible approaches to structure or not one's practise, I guess, and you might have to find out what suits you best, what you feel best with.
A'll say "2" .. there's always time for a little ``leisure´´, for playing around with props, or for fast improvement on cool few prop tricks.
For example, at your current level, being pretty comfortable with 6b so far, I'd think, you can maybe improve on those with only little practise time, while I don't think, completely neglecting 7b can make you improve there ( you don't start where last practise stopped, but you have get into it all over again each time). So, staying tuned at least with a minimum amount of practise time for the improtant tricks, can be another helpful way to cope with wanting several tricks.
As usual, you sound wise beyond your years, but I don't really know how old are you, haha.
so, anyway, thanks buddy! I knew this topic was suitable for a long argument, and it could define my next years of practice, that's why I ask, as you say, to spare some "own investigation".
For years i've juggled without a practice "policy", you know, just like you say Haavard Hvidsten does. but only a few hours a week.
Now i'm practicing every day, with a routine. ok, it is allways changing, evolving, thanks to the input of my dear jugglingEdge palls like you :) but i now feel I'm moving towards something, like in one direction.
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