Pirouettes!

Daniel Simu - 2016-07-13 07:24:24 UTC - Parent #

Hi Lou,

I'm far from an expert, but here are my opinions and beliefs:

Don't change the starting hand. What you're saying makes sense, I myself start left and spin left. I've always recommended this order to others. However, the more I watch people who are actually really good at pirouettes, the more it seems that they start with their favorite hand, even if they have to spin the "wrong" way around!
For example Lauge Benjaminssen spins "wrong". In the time of the AGschool I talked with Gatto about this and he wished for me to switch spinning direction, and absolutely start with my dominant hand. I did not change my spinning direction, as I also need this direction for acrobatic moves.

As for the feet:
Definitely on the toe! By bending (minimally) both the ankle and the knee you can correct your balance mid-spin, which becomes very useful for double or especially triple spins. If you already remove the ankle joint from the range you have to work with the knee and the hip, which breaks the alignment of your upper body.
In general with pirouettes, body tension is key. Lock the second leg to the first after the push off.

Good luck :)

Brook Roberts - 2016-07-13 10:19:11 UTC - Parent #

Interesting that you've said this. I've always gotten the impression that toe was easier, but heel was faster and potentially better if you were serious about doing lots of spins.

Patrik Elmnert and Ofek Snir both do heel, right? And Patrik has done 1440s at least, and Ofek all the things, and certainly Patrik strikes me as someone who thinks a bit about movement.

Little Paul - 2016-07-13 10:49:13 UTC - Parent #

I thought it was the other way around, in that heel is easier but toe is more efficient.

Have you tried asking someone who knows a lot about pirouettes in general such as a dancer or ice skater?

Brook Roberts - 2016-07-13 12:02:27 UTC - Parent #

I asked a bit about it with a dancer when I was learning a long time ago, although it was only a bit to do with technique of spins on the ball of the foot (I'm presuming that's what everyone here means when they are saying toe?!).

I've never been particularly keen doing spins with juggling, although I have started doing them more relatively recently. But I'm pretty sure I'm not keen enough to consider switching technique! (which I might consider if I was going to have serious goes at 720s).

Of course, toe feels easier for me currently because that's what I learnt!

Austin - 2016-07-13 15:00:36 UTC - Parent #

As for dancers, it's all very well asking them for general technique tips but they don't just go for all out speed, they have to look good. They also tend to do the toe- heel acceleration theing, not just pushing off very hard at the start. I'd say the heel must be faster because the area of contact is smaller. Or rather, your speed lasts longer. And Ofek definitely has the fastest spin :P

mike.armstrong - 2016-07-13 15:44:58 UTC - Parent #

As for dancers, it's all very well asking them for general technique tips but they don't just go for all out speed, they have to look good.

Jugglers have to look good too. Otherwise what's the point?

Orinoco - 2016-07-13 17:31:24 UTC - Parent #

Indeed, Anthony Gatto has said that he never bothered with more than one spin because audiences could rarely tell the difference between a single/double/triple etc.

When I was performing a diabolo act as a teenager I used to do a lot of pirouettes in my routine both singles & doubles, but in the end stopped doing doubles because I felt a slow controlled single looked much better than a fast double & the higher risk of stumbling out of a double wasn't worth the risk.

As a wannabe dancer I also recommend spinning on the ball of one foot, bend at the knees to lower your body & keep your core tight for a more controlled spin. Remember slowing down at the end of the spin is just as important as speeding up into the spin.

lukeburrage - 2016-07-13 21:26:05 UTC - Parent #

I do a double pirouette in my diabolo act. It gets a big reaction because I do a series of single pirouettes before it, and then throw lower and spin way faster. Also, if I'm doing it as part of my theatre show, I tell people what I just did, which always helps people notice a hard trick.

Elsewhere someone said learn pirouettes without juggling. I say learn double pirouettes while throwing a single object. I find it really helps me spot where I should be stopping on the second spin. Without throwing a diabolo up, or any other object, I lose my balance when doing double pirouettes and fall over. While juggling clubs or with a diabolo? Way easier.

Dee - 2016-07-13 21:32:17 UTC - Parent #

The art of spotting is much different for dancers than for jugglers; therefore Luke's advice on beginning with a single prop rather than practicing without any props. This is because dancers are trained to "spot" on a fixed point (I don't do pirouettes while juggling having trained to do them in ballet) but I'm reliably informed that this is not the done thing while juggling.

mike.armstrong - 2016-07-18 13:39:00 UTC - Parent #

Maybe we have a different idea of aesthetics for juggling. By "look good" I didn't necessarily mean pointy-toes and graceful movement - but juggling, like dance, is essential a visual art/sport/hobby. It should look as you intend it to look.
If you're not thinking about how it looks then, IMHO, you're doing it wrong. You can make it look grungy and clumsy if you like, but you need to make it look like something!
The start of this thread drew a contrast between juggling and dance. Dancers are not all performers.
Imagine the street dancer who simply wants to nail that next trick.
Imagine the salsa dancer who only goes to the club to chat to her friends at the bar, but has a couple of dances anyway.
Imagine the beginner ballroom who only starts taking classes when they retire.
Imagine the child's ballet class where most will give up before they're out of primary school.
None of them are performers, but they should all care about how they look. Just like the numbers/siteswap juggler, or the tea-drinker at the juggling club, or the struggling beginner at their first convention, or the enthusiastic kid who'll either quit or be doing 7 balls next time you see them.
Performers have a duty to their audience to "look good" by the standards of their stage character, but everyone else should aspire to look good by their own standards, otherwise they may as well not bother.

Mike Moore - 2016-07-18 14:58:44 UTC - Parent #

Hmm, I'm still not convinced by this. When you say, "everyone else should aspire to look good by their own standards," why do you think that this is truly necessary? Would you say the same thing about a baseball player, practicing their swing? If we think about a context where juggling is being practiced solely as a sport, why shouldn't that numbers/siteswap/technical juggler ignore how they look?

Personally, I think it comes down to who one juggles for. If you're juggling to entertain, enthuse, or potentially even impress, then yes, I agree with you that aesthetics are important to consider. What if you're only juggling for fitness? Or because it feels good? Or because you have an irrational drive to juggle 10 balls? In those situations, I don't see the necessity of considering aesthetics.

In essence, while I understand that for many people, "juggling, like dance, is essential a visual art/sport/hobby," I don't see that as a completely necessary consideration.

Lou Duncan - 2016-07-13 16:13:11 UTC - Parent #

Thanks man, I'm going to really try to experiment with them and find out which is better for me. I'm going to keep practicing both left and right hand though because I want back to back 5ups, in the distant, distant future:)