Hopefully someone has the easy answer to this...
Who is it at 2:39 who does the 9-up with rings?
My money's on "a juggler".
If you want a more precise answer, I suggest giving us a clue as to what you're referring to. (My money's on "a video".)
Ah, damn! Forgot the link!
Here we are:
https://www.youtube.com/v/YrcKrw06hNQ?start=158
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
I just googled "9 ring pirouette". This was the first thing to come up:
https://youtu.be/tIihK09tXnw
Samuel Pauwels
Thank you. I am AMAZED that I have never heard of this person before. Such a world-class trick!!!
Laido Dittmar does a 9 ring 7 up 360 in this amazing video released earlier today. Timely post.
https://youtu.be/JTyt57rT7lA
David Cain
Skip the intro, skip the end, turn the volume down, and have a look at some nice tricks.
Finally watched it, incredibly difficult stuff, just very samey. Felt like a lot more effort was put into the non-juggling sections than the juggling...
Accidently had Ludovico Einaudi's Divenire on whilst watching... it fit surprisingly well!
I'm not sure about a book being a guide to fast juggling success.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
I have been reading the book. Laido analysed the way that 'naturally talented' jugglers practice very well, and has described these methods for everyone to use. It definitely has valuable information for jugglers that is not presented in any other book I have read.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Is that information summarizable? I'm about half way in, and thus far it's been very much about his story, not so much about findings yet.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
You are probably reading the book preview (50 page total?). I did the same and was disappointed too. I can tell from on page 51 it gets better, though it is indeed summarize, but I'll wait with sharing more about that until the book is published.
Laido entrusted me with the full version to review, and it should soon be available.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
You are correct. Nothing to do but wait, I suppose!
Is he suggesting that there is such a thing as a naturally talented juggler or just that what some may think is a naturally talented juggler is just someone who practices well and a lot? I'd agree with the latter.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
The quality and quantity of practice comes first but it is possible to be naturally talented at certain aspects of juggling. It's genetic. I like to think (although I may be wrong) that if someone is less naturally talented at one aspect then they make up for it in another way. There are exceptions to this of course.
I can think of only very few genetic traits that would make certain juggling aspects easier. For example, long legs and arms for body throws.
A good book about this kind of thing is Bounce by Matthew Syed.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
What about intelligence? There are different kinds of intelligence. I've never been good at pattern solving/creating original symmetrical 3b patterns. It's because I don't have what it takes to be good at it (I wish I did). A certain kind of person is good at this, they're clever people, usually have fairly large heads and wear glasses.
The brain is incredibly plastic, especially during childhood years. I think it's your experiences that determine your type of intelligence and if you started training a specific type of intelligence, then you could improve a lot at it. It sounds like you have a fixed mindset, rather than a growth mindset, which causes you to avoid doing the things you think you can never be good at, and so don't improve at them.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
A friend of mine has two kids (now about 8 years old) that have learned to play the piano at home taught by their mother. Both have had the exactly the same kind and amount of practice and have shown similar enthusiasm. One (the child that is clearly much more academic at school) is currently *much* better at the piano. I would think (I could be wrong) that the one that's better would develop into more of a classical style (reading music) complicated technical stuff. The other (I think) would develop into a more 'jazzy' improvised, playing along, Jools Holland kind of style.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Do you think that the first one would have a choice between the two styles, while the second may not?
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
That's a good question and I don't know the answer. They're still young and I can't really tell. I think they both have the choice, it's more a case of what they're more suited to. First child is naturally talented.. he's much better and progressing far quicker, not just piano but at everything really. I've a feeling the first child would be better at both ways than his brother, more so the classical way than the other. I like to think his brother would go the 'Jools Holland' way but perhaps I'm just trying to be positive.
Siblings often try to be different from each other I think. If one gets slightly ahead of the other then it can have a feedback effect. The one ahead sees that they're better and it reinforces a growth mindset, whereas the other begins to have a fixed mindset. I'm not a pyschologist, but there must be many reasons why it could happen. For a more scientific test the two siblings should be separated at birth so that they don't influence each other, although that would obviously be wrong.
A story from the Bounce book. László Polgár wanted to prove that talent is learnt rather than genetic. He had 3 daughters and chose chess as the talent because he had no talent for it himself. All 3 daughters became chess prodigies having been trained from a young age. In this case the siblings didn't have any negative effect on each other, but I think that's because it was always treated as a fun game rather than something they had to do.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Interesting! I might get the book at some point.
Anyway, It leads me to wonder: If you can choose for your children in what they will excel, what would you choose for them?
I really like juggling, but I would never recommend anyone else to pick it up. It seems utterly useless if you don't already love it in the first place... But then again, love for a skill is likely to improve when skill improves too..
And is it good for kids to be strategically pushed into excelling in some skill at all? Or rather try not to influence them?
I wouldn't know what to share with my kids. It makes sense to teach them the things of which I would know where to start (among which juggling & circus....), but perhaps it makes more sense to pick on some more abstract skills: Social skills, learning skills, thinking skills, etc.
Oh well, not as if I will likely have kids in the foreseeable future, but still fun to ponder about :)
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I would push my kids into golf or tennis. They are the biggest paying individual sports which also have a developed enough tour to support many professionals who are good at what they do, but aren't in the elite ranks (top 20 level).
I wouldn't push my kids into anything. If the joy we have in circus is passed through to them and they continue with it when they are away from our influence then that is great. If they get fed up with circus because they have met so much of it as kids and want to do something completely different (e.g. gardening or concrete laying) then that is good as well. As long as they are productive members of society and are happy in what they do then we will have done our jobs as parents.
That isn't to say that I haven't taught my kids many of the skills I know. I have and they seem to have enjoyed learning them. I just don't want to push them so hard that they develop complexes along with a skill set.
Nigel
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I wouldn't push them either, but if I was going to push them into something, it probably wouldn't be juggling. Juggling is a fantastic hobby, but the reward for being an elite technical juggler isn't exactly that amazing. Breaking an athletics world record is an automatic pay day, as is winning most professional sporting events, but with juggling? Not so much.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
From time to time I think - What if, I had put as much time/energy into something else (instead of juggling).
Not that I regret juggling in any way.. I love juggling, but still the thought has occurred to me. Has anyone else ever considered this before? Would you swap all the time/practice for something else if you could? Whether it be something completely different or even a different kind of juggling?
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
I'd love to be able to do this:
https://youtu.be/r9YNKRwI5aU
I'd like to have been practicing the trumpet (never tried it). But I suspect my neighbours are glad I wasn't.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Thanks Peter, that is interesting and it makes sense.
Little Paul - - Parent #
Not all useful genetic traits are physical characteristics.
I think some people have a brain chemistry which predisposes them towards rapid learning (we've all met people who learn anything quickly, and we've all met people who struggle to learn anything) or a naturally long attention span, or a talent for sheer bloody mindedness.
All of which may appear to manifest themselves as "naturally talented juggler" if applied to juggling. They're not innately good at juggling, but they are predisposed to being able to pick it up quickly.
I believe the whole "anyone can be a world class juggler if they just practice like me" about as much as I believe the "anyone can have a body like me by using my exercise plan" - humans are just too varied for a one size fits all approach.
I'd have to disagree. I agree that the main thing preventing people from getting good at something is their attitude (attention span, determination, etc) but I think that these traits are created through previous experiences.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
I am sure both genetics (whether about physical or about traits like attitude) and experiences contribute towards your success, and I can't tell what is the main thing. Do we have any studies to link to that might give us a more clear picture?
In the meanwhile: Peter, what experiences gave you the attitude that was necessary to break world records?
We all have had parents and we all have had experience. The best studies to sort these out are done on identical twins, including identical twins separated at birth and raised in different circumstances. The Scandanavian countries lead in this kind of research because they maintain large registries of twins. I don't know if anyone has looked at juggling in this way.
There is https://twinjugglers.com but it's an example, not a study.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Yeah, talented juggling siblings (& twins) enough... But how does twin research help? They not only have the same genetics, also they share very similar experiences....
Anyway, this is a good moment to start and list some twin jugglers...
David & Scott Cain
Doubble Troubble
Ashok & Anand (I never heard of them before you put that link, hah)
Jake & Marty LaSalle
Oh, as I am listing these from the top of my head, I just remember a story:
You all have heard of Ernest Montego? Who became a top level juggler without being aware of his family members Lottie and Francis Brunn being jugglers?
This suggests that there is something in genetics.. I mean, there have not been so many jugglers on that level in recorded history, perhaps 200? What are the odds of such a story to happen??
But that is not what I wanted to tell you. This same story actually happened again!
Two Dutch jugglers, both working as professionals nowadays, are also half-brothers. I've never heard the story from either of them themselves, so I can not confirm all the details. I am not quite sure if they knew of each others existence. Anyway, they met each other while juggling in a park in Amsterdam. Both of them were juggling, so they chatted, and discovered later they were half-brothers. Isn't that insane? They both picked up juggling independently of each other...
I am talking of Marco Bonissimo and Jeroen Regtien. Here is a video of them together
https://youtu.be/yvJNwxP7Y2o
Now, that gives some hope that genetics plays some role... Right?
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Ah, I just realized he actually told that story also online, in a TED talk. From on 3:15
https://youtube.com/v/YqIhjQIsM6k?start=195
And I realized that there is another twin I know, Sandra & I forgot the name, two girls in Berlin doing club passing.
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I think he also told the story on the Juggling Podcast episode 24.
http://www.lukeburrage.com/rss2html.php?XMLFILE=http://www.lukeburrage.com/audio/jugglingpodcast.rss.xml
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
So the approach of the book, is not that naturally talented people necessary have better genetics (I believe it can play a part, as with every sport/activity, but I don't know to what extent), but rather that some people, perhaps randomly, stumbled upon the most effective training strategies. And these strategies can be extracted and used by others too, of course.
I have been thinking about this myself too. Why is it that Gatto never needed to see many other jugglers to learn to do what he does? Why do so many of the most skilled jugglers have 'terrible posture', many catchers vs throwers who still out level the others... Hardly any training has proven to be very successful in the technical skill area of juggling. Yet kids pop up and they manage to break records, with youtube as their only guide!
I've experienced myself, youngsters my age, who claimed to practise fewer hours a week than I did, yet still progressed at such a faster rate that it can not be explained by simply being 'genetically talented'.
This book is as far as I am aware the first attempt to research some of this, and is a first step in the right direction! It sure made me aware of some patterns that seem so obvious after hearing about them, yet being immersed in the juggling community for over 7 years never got me to think about them.
In the case of Gatto, I believe that anyone born into his circumstances would have had the same chance of becoming as good as he got. Like Mozart he was raised by an expert in training methods. He had a good indoor space that he was able to train in every day near his house (the biggest barrier for most jugglers). Nick Gatto has said that keeping him separate from other jugglers was good for him because he never realised the difficulty of what he was learning. Nick knew whenever he did something never done before, but never told him.
Dittmar's book may be the first to cover this specifically for juggling, but there are many other books regarding other sports and talents.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Yes, true, and Dittmar's book leans heavily on concepts from other books to get his ideas across.
The intro titles are the best bit! I was disappointed when the juggling started & it became apparent this was a legitimate video. I was hoping for a return of the Extreme Juggling Podcast.
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