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Read this (Qualifying after a trick): https://juggle.wikia.com/wiki/Qualify
Does that mean that if you...
1. Do the trick from a cold or warm start
2. Make 2x catches of n props of the basic pattern
...it's a qualify? And if so, is it only required to do the trick "one round", or do you have to do two?
Let's take 97531 as an example
Is 97531 - 5555555555 a qualify of the pattern then?
Earlier I thought a qualify of 97531 would require
5555555555 - 9753197531 - 5555555555
The words flash and qualify come from numbers juggling. There's not really a fixed definition for siteswaps. Personally I don't count a siteswap throw unless I throw that ball again after catching it.
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
Ah, thank you. I'll just set up a personal limit for myself then.
You're mixing up a "qualify" two rounds (\periods) of a pattern or siteswap or of ground-state (cascade) with a "qualify of ground-state (e.g. casc or fountain resp. or chosen basic pattern e.g. mills mess resp.) after something" ( be that "sth" a flash or a (different) qualify or a pirouette or anything ).
So, 5b-555555555597531975315555555555 is a qualify of 97531 from a qualify of 5b-casc (in)to a qualify of 5b-casc (= in #sum three qualifies).
A flash is one round (/period) - no matter from what to what. In numbers (flashing the simplest one-digit-siteswap) usually from launch to collect.
975315555555555 is a flash of 97531 (from launch obviously) (in)to a qualify of 5b-cascade.
But in case of a "flash", .. it can in other contexts also be
.. also be .. like "up", "3 up", "3 up + clap-hands", "anything ``up´´", ..
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_%28juggling%29 )
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
Wow, thank you! Very helpful! Now I understand :)
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
So for example 9753197531 only (not starting or ending with the cascade) is not a qualify?
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
Ohhh... It's a qualify....
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
And to qualify 5 ball 5-up 360 for example, you have to do the 5-up, (360), and then 10 catches of the 5 ball cascade...
... And necessarily don't need to do it from a warm start.
Aaaaha! .. Now I see:
You have somewhere seen or heard someone `qualifying´ a pirouette or qualify a gimmick or sth, then meaning "having done a ground-state-qualify after it". While usually "qualifying" means to do two periods of a pattern or of a trick or of a siteswap or of the ground-state itself (regardless of what happens before or after).
In that very very special case, where it - the gimmick or the pirouette or sth single - cannot be confused with doing two rounds of that gimmick or of that pirouette, "qualifying it" can only mean "having confirmed it (as well-done) by doing a qualify (=two rounds) of the ground-state after it".
So, - in that sense - [queer wording:] "qualifying a flash of 97531" can only mean "having done a qualify of 5b-cascade after the 97531-flash", or [better:] "flashed 97531 (in)to a 5-ball-cascade-qualify".
"Qualifying 97531" should mean: "9753197531 (no matter from or to what in the first place)". Else it will be misconceived as that latter.
Otherwise, - when it's mistakable - you cannot `qualify´ something by doing something other after. (sort of post-pattern, post-trick) So, you can't "qualify 97531" by doing two rounds of cascade after it, but only by doing two rounds of 97531.
For 360-ies, I'd say, that ..
"qualifying n-up 360° (in)to cascade" = "flashed (in)to cascade" = "doing or flashing n-up 360° (in)to cascade"
"qualify n-up 360°" = two rounds of "n-up 360° " = "consecutive n-ups 360° ".
Else `qualifying´ "single n-ups + 360° " would be misconceivable with "consecutive n-up 360° ".
So, .. if you call ..
[anything, launch or cascade] -> 5 up 360° -> 5 ball qualify (10 throws)
a "qualify of 5 up 360° ", you'd have to call ..
[anything] -> 5 up 360° -> 5 up 360°
"qualify of consecutive 5 up 360° ".
Or not call "5 throws of unconsecutives to a cascade-qualify" a "qualify" in the first place, because they're then misconceivable as consecutives.
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
It's a little bit tricky, but I at least understand more now, than I did before :)
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
And a big thank you for your time to explain!
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
So, to summarize, is this correct?
Flash:
Doing at least ”one round” of the period of the siteswap to a collect or to a re-entry of the basic pattern or another pattern.
E.g. 97531:
97531
Qualify:
Doing at least twice as many catches as the period of the siteswap.
E.g. 97531:
9753197531
To a collect:
Stopping immediately after the trick.
I haven't read 7b-wizard's longish explanations, but this sounds silly.
To 'qualify' 5 would mean by this definition doing only two throws: "55"?
Also, if you want to say "I did one round of 97531", why don't you just say that instead of flashing/qualifying/whatever?
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
1. In that case it would be the full period, but that doesnt make any sense. I wrote pretty bad, you get it "two rounds"
2. That is a great point Julius. I'll use that instead, much easier!
It seems as though people are making up their own definitions of how a qualify applies to siteswaps. What I don't understand is why we need to define it.
lukeburrage - - Parent #
Yup. The term qualify comes from the IJA numbers competitions, that happen only once a year, and means you've done enough catches of one number of objects so you can move on to the next higher number. The idea was morphed when applied to WJF competitions, where a juggler must get two rounds of the base pattern after doing a trick for that trick to be considered by the judges as valid.
Outside of competitions, the idea of a trick or pattern needing to be "qualified" isn't needed. It can be a personal goal for a trick or number, but there's nobody who will say a trick isn't valid if it doesn't hold up to their own standard of what qualify might mean in that circumstance.
When it comes to siteswaps, what is it you are trying to qualify for?
For siteswaps I normally just think in terms of the number of cycles I can do. If I can do 10 cycles I'll normally say that I can run it.
Here's consecutives 5b 5 up 180° https://youtu.be/UxdIyYr6Smw ..
two rounds of consecutive " 5b 5 up 180° " would be a "qualify".
If now people start qualifying "tricks", "``certain´´ tricks according to WJF-rules" by doing a cascade-qualify after ``the trick´´, you can `qualify´ "5b 5 up 180°" in an `easy way´ -doing a cascade-qualify after it, or `the hard way´ - doing consecutives. That is simply misconceivable wording. It would become necessary to ..
.. either call the consecutives a "consecutive's qualify" to distinguish it from the "cascade qualify after the 5 up 180° flash" ..
.. or not call the non-consecutives (a flash!) a "qualify" in the first place (but call them "a 5 up 180°-flash(!) (in)to a (cascade) qualify" .
cf.: https://youtu.be/ibUXNZMiN6Q 5 up 360° flash & 5 up 180°-flash, both `qualified´ according to WJF-rules with a ground-state-"qualify after `the trick´".
On a related note Luke, I'm curious about the rules for winning a point in FNC. From rules for referees:
Does rule three really achieve anything that the first two rules don't? Do judges use this rule much?
lukeburrage - - Parent #
There aren't enough judges for the rules to matter. The rules are more like a clarification of what most jugglers "feel" is right anyway, something surprisingly hard to get into writing!
The point of the second rule is that if a juggler's pattern is very shaky, they can stop any way the want after 6 catches, even if the clubs are trapped or grabbed wrong ended. The third rule means that if a juggler stops before six catches, the point will only count if the pattern is obviously under their full control. An uncontrolled pattern under six catches won't count, a controlled pattern over three catches will.
Brook Roberts - - Parent #
My guess would be that this rule is to cover the case where players stop when they feel their pattern is stable regardless of the rules saying you should do 6 catches. So if I have a pattern with wrong ends, I'll probably quite carefully make my pattern be stable, then stop. But if I attack and have all right ends and am totally in control, I might instinctively stop because I know I've won the point. Even if the rules say otherwise.
You can either change the players to conform to the rules, or change the rules to conform to the players :P
This seems linked to discussion of qualifying after a trick - my general rule for having landed a trick is for my pattern to be as stable as it was before I did the trick, with a minimum of a qualify if I'm not solid on the pattern. So if I do a 3 club trick, I'm satisfied pretty easily. If I do a 5 club trick, I might carry on for 20 catches, drop, and not feel I got the trick, because I never got the pattern back to the state it was if I hadn't bothered doing a trick.
lukeburrage - - Parent #
> You can either change the players to conform to the rules, or change the rules to conform to the players :P
This was my goal. I was trying to record how jugglers play combat now, not how I want them to play in the future.
Oscar Lindberg - - Parent #
That's true, and in fact, I use it only for personal goals. I asked about this after I did 5555555 - 9753197531 - 5555555555 (Only 7 catches before the trick) and first thought I didn't "qualify" it. The only reason why I would want to use "qualify" is for personal goals, to check the trick off the list (and also because it sounds good to say: I have qualified blablabla :P). But I understand now, I'll just set up a personal definition for my own personal goals. Thank you :)
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