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7b_wizard -

Thought of the Day

Yesterday, when flashing 9b, I had this reflection \thought \insight \enlightenment(?), that juggling or getting your pattern up, then keeping it rollin', is very much about shifting focus, how you shift focus from one aspect or from one property of the pattern and-or your hands' ado, to the other.

Let me explain, give an example or two:   when flashing nine, ..
- first, I focus on the first slow well aimed ball (kind'a paired with the second weakhand ball not awarely aimed, but following stronghand's throw, also slow), but also on being prepared to fire up the rest,
- then I focus on keeping that first ball spotted and orienting all the rest of the balls along that first ball's height, flighttime and trajectory in space (relative to the optimal front plane),
- then - if all goes well and all 9 balls up built a nice shape - I can focus on aiming the rethrows through the middle of my pattern.
- the next step, I'm currently working on, is to shift focus to pattern's top only and firing all rethrows into a hopefully well shaped top of my pattern focussing on the upper last ball up or upper three balls (maybe five) only.

when correcting, ..
when doing 7 balls or 5 balls and the pattern is ongoing and let's say somewhat stable, and my focus lies on for example simply doing left--right--a.s.o., or focus lies on in case the right height to keep, or in case on tuning the rhythm, or in case on reducing dwelltime. There might then be an outbreaker to bring back into pattern, and again the focus shifts to where exactly that ball lands, on spotting it, and on how its `wrong´ position in spacetime relates to my frontplane or the to the rest of the intact pattern, and focus lies on how and where I have to throw it in order to get it back into place.

All this happens within millisecs and is partly automized and-or unaware, but when learning, before having gotten there, these shifts of focus are maybe a major aspect of getting there, be they unawarely naturally found or rather by reflecting.

#JugglingWisdom (?) #focus #flashing #ThoughtOfTheDay

Mats1 - - Parent

That's a lot of analysis. When I try 9, I pretty much just throw them up there best I can and hope for the best! I think it's good to not overthink these kind of things and trust that practice will improve it.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hm .. it just doesn't come to me naturally, and by practising planlessly or unreflected, I might not get anywhere on that high level.
And also, I'm always in hunt for understanding what exactly goes on like in the brain when juggling, and hopefully find some kind of essence of how learning works best. And I some day want to understand what ``mastership´´ means.
I believe, knowing what to exactly focus on and when exactly, and also what there might be to anticipate, can help to find into higher levels and overcoming presumptive own personal limits.
And I wasn't referring to 9b only, .. I think, switching focus might be essential for juggling in general, like also for learning siteswaps.
But, yeah, .. trust that practise will improve it. sounds good and I feel that too over the long run. And, indeed, doing without thinking gets me my best most fluent runs, but first I need to work myself into that mindstate going through all crucial issues one by one to refind back into automation every stint.

peterbone - - Parent

I think that natural subconscious learning plays a big part of it, but there will always be those local maximums in the learning space that are difficult to get over that way. Some techniques in juggling can be counter intuitive at first. Watching better jugglers can always help but there are some thing you can't see. I'm always thinking of new variables to focus on, but they're not always things that are easily described and communicated.

Guili - - Parent

pretty much just throw them up there best I can and hope for the best!
LOL! I was thinking the same! but...
Let me share the way I see it.
Once upon a time I've discovered that the different things I've studied/practiced/learned in my life where interacting in my brain and, in some cases, helping each other.
For example, when I first began studying drums I was able to play pretty hard rythms, with different patterns on each limb (left hand, right hand, left foot, right foot), and I came to the conclussion that it was "a-little-less-hard" to me than to the other new players in my class, thanks to the coordination and disociation learned with juggling.
Now, when studying the cello I also had to break apart the challenge into little manegable tasks.
(like, you first learn the basic movement with the bow, then harder movements with the bow, then start pressing the strings with your left hand, and only then you start playing actual music)
The idea is that your body learns the basic movements well enough that you don't need to think each aspect of it ALL the time. Your body alone goes through the motions automatically, and your brain is free to think about notes, rythm, volume, etc.

I think juggling is the same. I've spent the last 5 months getting better with 7b, you know. Last week I've finally done it, made a qualifying run, and I think I got there thanks to the many hours of getting "familiar" with the 7-throw, using just 1 or 2 balls, and then letting my hands do their job when I grab the 7.
And me, I try to put my mind in a "focused-blank" state, if that's possible (like really focused, but blank... I really don't know how to put it better.. haha)

So, in conlusion, let it go, don't overthink, and trust your hands. You'll get it! :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Two keywords come to my mind .. for different things interacting in the brain, helping each other - synergy, i think, nails that; .. for focussed, but blank - yeah, that's a queer state of mind, not always easy to get there when mind is `busy´ wanting sth, trying sth, utterly relaxed, .. maybe that's a ``relaxed alertness´´ or readiness, a standby-state of mind, ready and prepared to react fullspeed and full focus anytime when necessary without any ground-tension, only with that Qi to the point. I feel, it's got a bit of trance or self-hypnosis, too, maybe.

I'm not sure, how the notions of ``being in a tunnel´´ or ``in the zone´´ relate to this.

But it's also different when relaxing and getting prepared before starting, or else during an ongoing pattern.

Guili - - Parent

it's got a bit of trance or self-hypnosis haha! totally!
and its hard to get there when you're into hard stuff, alrright.
but, it's worthy. and at the level we are juggling we need to train our minds as well as our bodies.
what I try to do before each run is visualise the perfect run I want, then toss the balls and start counting in my head the number of catches.
with 7b I go 1 (when the first ball, yellow, comes down into my hand), then 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are red balls, then 1 again. so it keeps my mind busy.
with 5b I count rounds (like only count the times the first, yellow, ball hits my hands) so its 1 - - - - 2 - - - - 3 - - - - (where each "-" is a red ball) and then multuply by 5.
this gives more time to think..but then again, 5 it's kindda easy allready.
But i digress... what I meant to say, is to keep your mind occupied in the count, so it won't start overthink the throws and everything.

7b_wizard - - Parent

#mentalTechnique #theZone #counting   [for better finding related threads later again]

7b_wizard - - Parent

Sometimes, esp. when I ran into some mental barrier (of amount of catches), I'd rather not want priority on counting, but rather on the pattern, thinking nothing, but "up--up--up--a.s.o. (or alike)" in snapped-in beat, or to only count ``unawarely, subconsciously, automized´´ (if that's possible) or if there's brain cells left for counting while focussing on the pattern, on doing right in the first place. Or I then try to think nothing at all and just watch the balls fly. But my uncounted runs, utterly delved into the ado only, are rare.

Guili - - Parent

'd love to hear some long-time-juggler's opinion about this. what to do with your head during hard runs?
(and "bounce up a ball" is not the answer we're looking for.. ;))

Mike Moore -

9 ball preparation

I'm looking to direct my juggling into numbers for the next while, specifically working on 7b in a way that will make a somewhat sustained 9b more feasible in the future. I've been enjoying 5 and 7 ups (no 360s) and praciticing 7b at what I expect 9b height will be. Finding these really fun.

My siteswap abilities are a fair bit below my base-pattern abilities, so I'm working through some remedial siteswaps with 5 (771, 75751, and the very non-remedial 933).

What are some other things to work on? Unless it is absolutely necessary, I'd like to avoid 8b and 6b (except in cascade patterns).

Austin - - Parent

Personally I think just try and work on lots of tricks back to pattern with 7, as they are both more fun and more productive than slaving away at 9. Try the 5 and 7 ups with 360s, and try getting a few rounds of 966, 867 and b6666 back to pattern. I also like working on (8x,6)*. On top of that, although I can get 100 catches of 7 most attempts I think it needs to be a lot more solid to be working on 9. Why not try 8? It's a lot easier than 9 and helps with the speed and height.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Thanks for the response. I've worked a little on 966 and (8x,6)* and will continue doing so. I don't like 360s (aesthetically, conceptually, and physically - they're normally asymmetric and hurt my knees when I practice them too much)

Do you think that b6666 and 867 are really useful for 9? Perhaps as a general "it'll make you spend more time on 7b siteswaps", but they seem to be pretty unrelated to a 9b cascade. Which leads me to...

I don't do base patterns of even numbers. I don't like the feel of the scooping motion, and collision avoidance in fountain patterns is a skill of mine that lags behind (and I am fine with it doing so). I've certainly /tried/ 6 and 8b, and worked on 6 enough at least to know that I don't like it.

Current 7b status for me is breaking 100 catches about once/practice.

Austin - - Parent

Well b6666 certainly will be as it will help your ability to have enough control over 7 to get out high throws. If you can do it, 978 would be worth working on if you dont want to do fountains. Other than that I just think getting 7 both rock solid and correctable is the best way forward, and I do that by trying to get increasingly hard tricks back to pattern, preferably with a nice run afterwards to show control. What balls are you using for it?

Mike Moore - - Parent

The problem with things like b6666 is that I expect the bottleneck in skill will be the several consecutive 6s no colliding. I'd be spending a lot of time/effort dealing with an aspect of the pattern that I don't expect would help me with my goal.

I'm using Drop Props (100 g) for 7, and will probably do that for 9. If I'm feeling lame, I might use my underfilled 85 g Drop Props.

Austin - - Parent

Fair enough, maybe just practice doing 7, throwing 1 very high and collecting 6, then going back to 7 straight away. What I'm wondering is whether your goal is just to get some runs of 9, or whether you want a general improvment in numbers skill? Because I only really work on base patterns so they're solid enough to get some tricks in them, because I get bored just running patterns.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Right now, my goal is to build toward runs of 9. I tend to switch focii and dig pretty deep for longish periods of time (e.g. from Feb-July, I only juggled 3b) and 9 is my medium-term goal at the moment.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Ooops, I forgot to say thanks for the idea of doing a collect to a restart. Thanks!

peterbone - - Parent

I personally don't think that any 7 ball siteswaps would be much help for 9 balls. I mean look at Gatto's 9 balls. 9 balls is all about throwing with a very consistent height and accuracy, which siteswaps won't help you with. You're already working on 7 balls high, which is one of the best exercises for 9. Get is as accurate as you can. I'd also recommend working on 7 low to get used to the speed. I'd also suggest to do these exercises with a range of different balls from small to large and light to somewhat heavy. Large balls with 7 will give you the pattern shape and arm position needed for 9. Other than that, just go for 9 with many short sessions.

Maybe these articles will help as well. The first I wrote mainly for flashing high numbers but a lot of the points may be helpful for running 9 as well.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071121072425/https://www.jugglingdb.com:80/compendium/skills/training/numbers/

Mike Moore - - Parent

When high 7 is working with good form, it gives me such a great feeling! 7 low is a bit frustrating right now, but frustrating in similar ways to 9b attempts, so seems like awfully good practice.

Very interesting advice about doing 7 with different types of balls. I'll be sure to do that, especially during club meetings when there are tons of different balls to go around.

Those articles are so nostalgic! Worth re-reading after such a long time, thanks.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

What do you consider sustained?

I took a look at the jugglingedge.com records database to see how good 9 ball jugglers are at 7 ball juggling. Link to graph showing relative difficulty of 9b and 7b.

Typically 7 ball jugglers are better 9 ball jugglers. Most jugglers who can sustain 9 balls longer than 20 catches can run 7 for more than two hundred.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I probably wouldn't practice 9b unless I thought I could break 20 catches of it at some point. So yes, I'm looking for >20 catch runs.

That's a cool comparison in your graph. I have no doubt that I'll run 7b for 200 catches before getting 20 catches (or maybe even a qualify) of 9b.

peterbone - - Parent

Nice plot. I can spot myself. The problem is though that a lot of 9 ball jugglers may not be interested in long runs of 7. It would be a bit like Usain Bolt running a marathon. Also some endurance jugglers may not be able to get decent runs of 9. That's why the data doesn't follow the linear regression very well at the higher catch counts.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I understand the idea of the comparison between Usain Bolt's best races (100 m, 200 m, maybe 400 m) and marathons against 9b and 7b seems hugely exaggerated. I expect it would be more like comparing 9b versus 3b (or 4b). Distance running and sprints are hugely different. It's not the case that sprinters are just "uninterested" in running distance: elite sprinters couldn't run distance at an elite level, nor could elite distance runners sprint at an elite level.

peterbone - - Parent

Yeah, I said a bit different. I think it would be more like comparing 9 balls to 5 balls. I know that it's not just a case of being uninterested in the other discipline. It's also about what people have trained for. 7 and 9 are still different enough that people could have specialised in one and not be anywhere near as good at the other.

7b_wizard - - Parent

[ sry for being late on this thread .. still had it "unread" .. but I believe it's not deep-frozen yet ]

My prospective approach on this - if I were at your level - would currently be ..

- to walk and turn with 7b - it provides a stronger feeling of control generally and on the front plane in particular,

- vary any 7b heights and - maybe more important: widths,

- vary 9b depending on how good or bad it works; dare some notably higher runs (or be it launches) when you feel strong and lissome and launches come well, dare some low patterns when you feel speedy; or also when things are going bad for too long, force a few high and a few low attempts for the sake of ``defining´´ normal height and speed.

There's a few rather simple 7b siteswaps that contain consecutive 9-s and don't seem too hard to at least have a go at them on your level (I couldn't and wouldn't currently) and I see a chance that these might train 9b with two balls less:

[72]77777777999922 - even without being used to multiplexes, this one is mainly   9 -- 9 -- 9 -- 9 -- catch-wait -- catch-wait -- empty hands doing 7-s   (just like when launching).
Or simply 777777779999922

If you rather feel like `doing sth´ instead doing two holds ..
777777779999931 - you could maybe think of 31 as doing a higher bowy 2x over a lower slammed 2x and keep the first incoming 9 spotted in order to time the following 7-s ``over´´ it.

A bit trickier, I guess, are ..

9999337777777

9995377777777

And a more standalone insane one .. 77777777bbb5551

7b_wizard - - Parent

* ("..777...9999931..") - keep the first fourth 9 spotted in order to time the next 7 over it.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Certainly not a dead thread, I read every post here :)

I was practicing 9999922 last night, and I'd never thought to try a 31 or similar (as you explain above). I think patterns in that family would be excellent training, thanks for suggesting them.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Just found another one: 999333 - only three Nines in consecution, but being without holds or Ones, the low Threes grant for the those Nines needing to be precisely timed and right on height. Don't think, it only being 6 balls makes it an easy one ( maybe easier optics \view \ reaction timespace ). ___ [ no answer needed \expected \required ] ___ [ #9balls ]

7b_wizard -

Hey folks,
what were your greatest all time insights to juggling ever since you started? Was there any eye opener, any enlightment, anything that got you to become waaay better at anything? Did you encounter or figure out any #JugglingWisdom that changed your juggling to the much better?

For me it was ..

  • The finished pattern will be easy, swift, smooth. (And it will not be easy by stronger muscles, but by better technique, by overall doing with pattern, not against, by finding better ways). So, when you're forcing a lot and get burning arms, sth is wrong in most cases (unless you're doing effortish stuff, very high numbers, big balls, heavy props, fast explosive moves).

      In practise this means to e.g. avoid forcing a lot, but going to collect when the pattern is ``corrupt´´, that way sparing time (to pick up drops) and (muscle-) energy.

  • When you're stuck, things aren't going like they should, a change is most obviously (of course!) necessary --> so, at least varying in any way does a brute force hunt for such changes, or else, better, you can spot any flaws or errors (by reflecting, awareness) or get them told. The knack here is to account for the unknown, for anything that you did not(!) even think of that there is still to find out.

      In practise this actually switches the brain on, which afaik is required for learning, for getting on towards a goal, towards mastership, instead of numbly getting practising time down + hoping it'll work you up.

  • Even aiming at all (not simply "up"), was one the first! You seize control.


Found out or got told a lot more distinct stuff, like scooping well under last ball, like doing wristy with greater lever, like controlling a greater range (wide; bodythrows; blind), like awareness and control of dwell-time, like having an imagined whole rack of aiming points for siteswaps, like .. well many more, but which are all more or less subdue to the major guidelines above.
Which juggling wisdom struck you most?

Looking foreward to read your bits or stories

greets the wannabe wizard

7b_wizard - - Parent

Also theory, knowing about all kinds of aspects, the properties of a pattern or trick, is important. I mean, the brain needs sth to work with when switched on (not meet gaping void [lol?] inside lol).

So, for example, knowing different geometries of a same pattern (scoop, stretch, wide, 3d, .. stuff), knowing about physics, about lever, knowing that a column at same height flies just as long as a wide bow of same height(!), knowing that height and time gained needs gained low where the prop lands fast with longer path in shorter time to be made up for (not gain height and time high, where it's slow and little path), knowing how learning works, what the steps in learning are (short time memory, repetition, see, reproduce, do yourself, .. stuff), knowing what ways and options there are to structure a practise session, knowing about perception (delusions of optical, of timing's nature, a parallaxe e.g. when looking high up), knowing about sore muscles, about joints, knowing about the influence of the background (sky, clouds, diffuse light, wall, colours, .. stuff), knowing about bodymovement, .. well tons of things that concern your juggling. ..
.. Answers to simple questions like "What is it? What is it made of? Can I eat it? How big is it? How does it move and change? Who does it? Where is it? What is it part of? Why is it? .. " This world is huuuuge and full of diversity to find out about and relate it to what you do and want, can, cannot, is or is not possible but do it anyway, find truths .. [I'll stop here thx 4 your attention ;o]) ]

Mike Moore - - Parent

1 - Back when Sondre was coaching people via video, his first piece of advice was practically always the same: catch lower, throw (from a) lower (position). Made this change, made life better.

2 - Make the same mistake three times in a row? 10 pushups. Make the same mistake three times in a row while passing? 20 pushups.

3 - Catch where your fingers meet your palm.

4 - If you ever think, "I wonder if that's even possible...", reframe it and ask, "I wonder if [Chris Hodge, Peter Bone, Michael Falkov, Vova Galchenko, etc.] could do that." I've often felt something was impossible, but could easily imagine one of them doing it, so I had to reevaluate the pattern.

7b_wizard -

Is there any undisputable general principles, tenets, toss-juggling truths?
.. that necessarily always apply? Cos' it seems of all good advices and tips and "good for"-s it will always depend on your preferences, on your own approach, on your anatomy, on your way of learning, on skills you already have or have not, on which trick, which prop, on many things, if they even apply for you or not.

Is "There is no toss-juggling truth, that cannot be questioned, doubted on, done differently." true?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Like .. Is there any logical necessities when learning, when improving, that are without any doubt possible always true?

Orinoco - - Parent

Joggling will never be cool.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Joggling is/was considered pretty cool where I live...we had the most world-record holding woman who frequently trained here, along with some others because we have an annual race. It's posted about fairly often on our "overheard/overseen" facebook group, always positively. The people I run by while joggling almost always smile, and say "That's amazing/impressive/so cool/etc."

Somehow, here (maybe not there) the juggling part lifts or removes the stigma that running has to non-members of the community.

Actually, juggling in general is pretty well-respected in our city, as our club does a fair few charity shows, and is pretty popular. Last Thursday, someone came up to us while we were practicing in a lecture building lobby and said, "I've had classes here for the last four years, and I want to finally thank you guys for brightening up the place."

7b_wizard - - Parent

Haha! .. nor beautiful lol. Unless one joggles 7b olympic distance.

Mike Moore - - Parent

How about: it's easier to learn a pattern that only touches your hands sighted, then blind, rather than the other way around. I feel like the prevelency of doing this in practice is strong support of it.

Even something like BBB, some people use mirrors and the like to be able to better diagnose common mistakes.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Convinced.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I also mean like .. Is there any (true) guidelines, rules, that could show up in a schoolbook of juggling, any law(s) of juggling, that are not ``depends´´ and not ``yeah, but´´ in-case-true?
I mean, even gravity doesn't grant for props falling always "down" since people get the idea to juggle while hanging upside down, or when bounce juggling within big triangles, or when showing siteswaps on pool tables, rolling.   Hardly any insight, anything you learn, seems to be really granted, as there will always be someone who'll do it exactly opposite or make the impossible happen.   Isn't that pretty queer for a discipline? You don't have that in javelin throw or tennis or sports-fishing. Or let's take artforms .. there's howto-books for drawing, painting, music, dancing, anything, animation-arts .. only juggling has no true guidelines?? Only: you can do this or that pattern, and "Let the upper arms point downward!"

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I say bullshit.

Of course all the other art forms continually reinvent themselves, and of course juggling has howto books.

Javelin throw and tennis and sport fishing have objectives: winning. Ineffective paths can be removed from the tree and ultimately the sport will come close to perfection. With anything that doesn't have an objective or rules, there are limitless directions.

Does juggling have rules? Depends how you define juggling. The rules question is pretty pointless, but if for the arguments sake you were going to set some rules, for example that juggling means throwing AND catching, then a truth is "a drop is an error".

But even without written rules, the laws of physics are still applying to juggling. There are truths about the path a ball can make, about the possibilities and limits of the body.

I don't really know what you want to discover through your hypotesis, but juggling is not at all creatively superior to the other "artforms".

Little Paul - - Parent

"a drop is an error"

I thought the quote was "a drop is a sign of progress" and "a touch is as good as a catch, because you knew where it was headed"

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Don't tell my students I said that ;)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hmh ..
I don't see it so clear:

You can have distinct objectives, results to be gone for in juggling too, but hardly any or no clear guidelines, that will bring me there as i think is the case in other sports  ( music and painting are very bad examples of mine as anything is possible there too, and any howto-books can only be propositions or approaches and many ways lead to a wealth of possibilities ).
Maybe I've just read too few juggling books.

Agreed for: In (``strict´´) toss-juggling, a drop is a fail.
Although transitions are fluent to easily deconstructing this. (Intended drops; juggling near and with the floor; Olivia Porter's drops being part of the act; .. )

I think, you really only slightly misread me there: I wasn't out for a "Yes." on ".. no toss-juggling-truths..", but rather hoped on some of such guidelines or general truths, something that I've overseen. Gather some wisdom here. Or else, to find out, that there indeed isn't any. (It was really a question, not a subsumed hypothesis). Wondering, how everything always ``depends´´ or can be done as you like, for it can't be "wrong".

I am somewhat gotten mixed up in notions and reference frames now ("art" vs "sport" vs different "disciplines" or "styles" .. then "guidelines" for what exactly?), but I'll take with me: juggling is too much an art (with no common default objectives?) to necessarily need rules like other competitive sports do, unless it's combat or some juggling-game with distinct rules.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. and (toss-)juggling is not only an art, but also sport, gymnasics, body-science (?), physics, where I would expect common default guidelines, juggling-truths for a schoolbook of juggling.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Yup, and they exist:

Break down tricks, start with an easier step for faster and better learning (start with one ball)
Use big muscles rather than small ones, e.g. don't throw from your wrists. Larger muscles are more accurate.
Visual feedback is useful. Don't look into the sun, juggling white balls on a white background makes juggling harder
Underfilled beanbags are easier to collect, especially if you are juggling large numbers.
The pattern 423 can loop forever but the pattern 432 can not. (invalid)
Holding time influences the minimum throw height.
A cascade with clubs takes more time to learn than a cascade with balls.
What goes up will come down, even if you are Ignatov jr. and you juggle propellers.
The same trick with larger props can be recognised from further away.

This list could go on and on and on, but most seem too obvious to even mention.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

And of course you can ignore all of the "truths" above and say: But what if I want to be groundbreaking and juggle with only my wrists? But this is also true anything else like gymnastics: A summersault requires a 360 rotation.. but what if I want to break my neck?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Aha. There's some statements to work with.
All looked fine and obvious at first read, but here's my "yeah but"-s and "depends":

Break down tricks, start with an easier step for faster and better learning (start with one ball)
  a) The upside-down box was my first box. I never did a 3b mills mess - jus a good bunch of windmills - I'll try that with 5b for the first time one day, if necessary to break down with 4b, only then 3b. That is: having focussed on 7b (and 5b) cascade mainly (but also doing other few ball tricks, stuff and 3b freestyle), I am used to a lot more balls in the air and have earned skills and speed, so that tricks will collaterally just fall like ripe fruit.
  b) You can skip easier steps and do it the hard way (but it's not thathard). Often people tell you to do completely different patterns just because they're with one prop less e.g. lotsa 4b siteswaps with holds and or empties ("0"-s), where you don't get the constant cascade feeling or rhythm.
  I don't think it's obvious or undisputable. A "sure, but"-halftruth.

Use big muscles rather than small ones, e.g. don't throw from your wrists. Larger muscles are more accurate.
  Completely disagreed: I believe, (if even, then) all the muscles involved should work together at an optimal rate. And using less bigger muscles (upper arm, shoulders) - those only for stabilizing purpose - and using the levers from forearm and wrist, even fingers to get on height needs less effort in sum. We're not throwing cannonballs, not even pétanque, just small weight props. Darters use less than half the weights that jugglers use. Juggling is a question of skill and technique, not force.
  This one is "point of view" as far as I'm concerned.

Visual feedback is useful. Don't look into the sun, juggling white balls on a white background makes juggling harder
  100% agreed. I'll add disturbing, irritating strong contrasts in peripheral view; and throwing shadows, silhouettes of balls only, against a dark cloudy sky or nebulous diffuse weak cloudy light.

Underfilled beanbags are easier to collect, especially if you are juggling large numbers.
  "Yeah, but" they consume more thrust. They slip around your finger more easily. They don't aim as well as well filled or more compact balls. - So, not the whole truth, here, I'd say.

The pattern 423 can loop forever but the pattern 432 can not. (invalid)
  Absolutely undisputable siteswap maths.

Holding time influences the minimum throw height.
  .. at a given beat. (Else not)

A cascade with clubs takes more time to learn than a cascade with balls.
  Hmnjuhmjesnomostly .. not sure. I heard, some people get along better with clubs - for low numbers just as much as with higher numbers. It makes sense, as I just learned - here from ^Tom and Maria, that the throwing movement is or can be pretty different for clubs. So: "depends" what suits you better.

What goes up will come down, even if you are Ignatov jr. and you juggle propellers.
  Too obvious to not agree. Yet, we've seen Flüügzüch with Helium Ballons; jugglers juggling upside down (props then fall UP!); and bounce juggling in big triangles (balls ``fall´´ to and from sides too there, before they fall as physics require). So, "depends", but ordinarily: "Okay, how else."

The same trick with larger props can be recognised from further away.
  hmnjuhmyes .. Yes, but that's optics involving an audience, not really a guideline for the task of juggling itself, and not really what you'd start a schoolbook with. But, well, sure is true.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I'll give them numbers so it is easier to respond:

1 (breakdown)
Yeah the only thing the upside down and the normal box have in common is their rhythm. I hope you started with 2 balls and not 3? Until we teach 2 large group of people the same trick through different methods, we can't tell for sure if it really helps to break down. However, I know from my own experience that I'll do better runs of 3b backcrosses if I do 1 minute of practising one side at a time and 1 minute of running it, than if I go for 2 minutes of just running the pattern. There are too many things going on which after all these years I still can not understand unless I break it down and correct errors one by one.

2 (muscle size)
Look up "best dart players" on google image.. all have big arms!
Of course all muscles are involved, but the roles of applying force and transferring force are assigned to different ones. In circus school anatomy class I was told that larger muscles can perform more accurate actions but I can't quickly find a source to back this up. Juggling will become a question of force. Try and run 5b non stop for half an hour, and see afterwards if you can still make it to half of your personal record.

4 (saggy balls)
Everything works, or doesn't work, depending on the goals. The saggy balls are just an example, you could name any prop for any other benefit. Obviously flashing 11 balls is going to be much harder with golf balls than it is with the bagladies finest number bags.

6 (holding time)
Same thing here. Things work or don't work depending to the "rules".

7 (clubs)
Motivation issues aside, I can't be convinced that people with no prior throwing and catching experience will ever be quicker to learn clubs. Juggling a cascade with balls was a challenge of 2 hours. With clubs 2 weeks.

8 (gravity)
again: You make up the rules! Wanna talk about juggling as this meaningless all-containing concept, or wanna talk about juggling as we know it? Yes, I've seen some great acts using hair driers to keep balls afloat, but it is completely irrelevant if you want to understand juggling better and you're just working on that 97531.

9 (size)
Hahaha, so involving helium is allowed but involving an audience not? In my definition of juggling, the audience is very very relevant. Juggling to me is a visual medium, anything I do has to be seen.
As always, it depends on the rules.


And since everything depends on the rules, there will never be an ultimate truth. Until god steps up and writes the bible and lawbook of juggling, we'll be free to do anything and call it whatever we like. For communication sake I have some boundaries to my concept of juggling, but I wont force them onto anyone else.

So, next up on our agenda:
Are there any truths in life?

7b_wizard - - Parent

1 - break down - Oh! .. you got me there .. i think, yes: broke the inv box down to two balls at first. So let my objecting examples be exceptions from the rule that is then not logically necessarily always true, but very much mostly true by experience.

2 - muscles - I'm not taking that argument: anything, even simply keeping your arm held up for ½ an hour or merely standing immobile for a long time will of course stress any involved muscles, even lying still without moving every once in a while. I agree that going to some (not all) extremes (enure, high numbers) might or will stress muscles - but that doesn't go for (toss-) juggling in general or as guideline, and still then, technique and skill will make up for lotsa unnecessary effort. I'd say, there's lotsa a room for research on optimizing movements - it's being done for one-armed robots, engineers are far ahead there in knowledge about kinetics and forces involved. So: "highly disputable" if not wrong, the way, you said it, or not the whole truth about biokinetics and just a minor aspect neglecting a view on optimizing the whole.
MCGilligan, LØfberg and Sobolieva have thin arms. (Raise! Double or nothing.)

4 - saggy balls - Disputable. I believe, hard balls give higher precision, but i think have greater spread on smallest differences in releasing them. Saggy balls might be easier to collect in sum (they do roll around your finger more easily), but are less precise, i believe, and for sure consume thrust, i am convinced of. Any proven or experienced and agreed on properties of props will furthermore be highly individual and depend on many things like which pattern, how you throw or catch or juggle, depend of the style you have, depend on your grip, depend on combination with other ball properties (underfilled + slippy surface; overfilled + grippy surface; their shell, their filling and its behaviors, endless combinations). So, I don't see any obvious simple truths easily stated here - just single experiences stated out of again a whole context.

5 - s'swaps - I'll add Ben Beever's Axioms here. Add that universal siteswap map, built on states. But also relativize any notations as being abstract and describing only parts of the whole, the calculable aspects. Any siteswap-maths statements are true within their system, that is assuming a lot be idealized (beat, hands, vanilla setting, or extended). For a lot of juggling, upto this day's notation systems have their limits.

6 - dwell-time - Yeah, but again the whole set of involved factors is needed here for describing the physic's ratioes: When you don't account for different beats, it's only half the truth or only for juggling at a constant beat, which in practise is not an obvious thing to do (when still learning or when allowing for changes of the beat). But when you include a changing beat, you have three variables: height, beat-speed and dwell-time. Nonlinear. Complex. And that is for an ideal pattern, with idealized hand movements. Reality might involve even hand and arm positioning for different patterns giving different measure values.

7 - clubs vs balls - Hm: undecided? I wouldn't wanna call club-only-jugglers an exception from a rule that favors balls. Maybe we need a club-only (or mainly or better) juggler state on this.

8 - gravity - make up rules, concept vs juggling as we know it   A concept, structured knowledge, valid guidelines that apply, for what we know it from doing it (but, okay, that's generally thinking, not in this concrete gravity issue).   - That act was great! I thought it's done, but he did it with more and more and he didn't even want to lol -   Okey, if it's true, then it's soo trivial. Or, we can question it - after all the intention of juggling is to make gravity disappear, right.

9 - dependsdependsdepends   yeh, .. that's why i wondered if there's truth that not ..endsdependsdep.., but generally serve to guide you along a well structured learning or improving.

truths in life   Yes! You have to break down challenges to their parts an work with one ball first.

LukasR - - Parent

1 break down - i agree on it beeing the fastest way to "master" a trick but sometimes i still prefer to just "force try" a trick either because it seems easy enough, or because it´s more fun or because i just want to do it once on camera but don´t intend to ever practise it.

2 muscles: i think we could formulate this in a way that it applyes to russian technique (there is some problem with the leg beeing the largest muscle which shouldnt be involved). also i think this gets counteracted by the many disciplines that utilize the wrist and minimal bodymovement which let´s me make up this rule

10 Minimize unnecesary (body) movement - (for speed, precision, minimum efford etc)

4.1 jugglers will always argue about their balls/props

5-9 jep there´s some truth in physics

7b_wizard - - Parent

10 - unnecessary movement - Can You give one or two examples of which in particular unnecessary movement there is. (unnecessary walking with pattern instead of doing pure, isolated? unnecessary flourishing? unnecessary, exaggerated use of shoulders, upper arms for an easy small 3b pattern?).     I also see a problem defining "unnnecessary" for vivid, dynamic, dancing style juggling vs static, immobile styles (doing the same patterns). It would be very helpful, though, to know which movements or parts of movements are necessary (wouldn't go without, somehow the prop must go up), and which really aren't. And I wonder if such required minimum movements necessary can be easily spotted and defined.

  .......................................................... .,-~°~-,.................................................

Are there elements of toss-juggling? Is there an elementary most basic (easiest, uncomplicated, minimum) throw?

I lately tried to break down the simplest very low 1 ball throw from relaxed standing position with hanging arms and stronghand holding the ball, intending to find  t h e  most basic element of toss-juggling (possibly in order to build a natural optimized juggling theory up on from there): So, in that position, I thought, it might be a good idea to lift my forearm to get prepared for a throw. I lifted it to 90° angle to upper arm. I found by the weight of my forearm up, the upper arm would sway back slightly, then pointing slightly backwards. Then I lowered the forearm a bit to build up momentum and continued the movement back up to release the ball. It (instinctively?) happened with rather stiff wrist which seems to provide greater control on the flight direction (straight up in this case).   A day later, I wondered, why I had lifted my forearm just to get upward rid of the ball in the hanging hand, when I might just aswell throw earlier from further below and could use my wrist more to make up for a long way up of the forearm. So, this time, I threw right on fromout hanging arm, mainly from my wrist, without lifting my forearm more than necessary to not throw ahead, but up.     Long paragraph to say only this: really nothing seems granted from the moment on that you decide to throw sth up. Is juggling complex from the very first moment on, does it have no basics, no elements? (And I didn't even throw it to the other hand and it hardly left my hand)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

As for the legs: You know that there is someone juggling 4 balls with one foot, even though toes are not by far as forgiving as hands? I find that legs can make very very precise throws/kickups with not too much training!

But of course, using your legs while juggling can destabilize your upper body, which is bad.. Though I know some passers/synch jugglers who put their legs to good use!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Okay, our schoolbook of juggling upto now contains the following (upto now undisputed or agreed or not disagreed on) guidelines:


a)   It's easier to learn a pattern that only touches your hands sighted, then blind,
rather than the other way around.



b)   In toss-juggling, a drop is an error.


c)   Breaking tricks down, starting with an easier step, will usually grant for faster and better learning,
    for the fastest way to master a trick.


d)   Visual, optical conditions impact on the quality of your juggling.

    Visual feedback is useful. Don't look into the sun, juggling white balls
on a white background makes juggling harder



e)   Calculations and statements within a given description system are logically true.

    [s'swaps, validity; fitting orbits; how many hands for how many props; calculable stuff; Beever's axioms;
    lotsa maths and logics; .. example:
    The pattern 423 can loop forever but the pattern 432 can not. (invalid)]


f)   Holding time influences the minimum throw height at a given beat.


g)   What goes up will come down, even if you are Ignatov jr. and you juggle propellers.


h)   The same trick with larger props can be recognised from further away.


[ Sorry for citing wrong, modified, altered, trying to make it yes-no-statements, or hopefully more generally valid for e) ]

Hmh ..

#JugglingWisdom #schoolbook

RegularJugular -

Will sloppy patterns always cause plateau? How can I juggle neater patterns?

This has been discussed a lot over the years, but I just wanted some consolidated information*.

I've experienced after many years of juggling with bad form / sloppy patterns wih 4 or more objects that: 'Juggling consistantly ugly input does not get beautiful output at the end'. It also causes more fatigue, which causes shorter runs.

Assuming that I am correct in my observation: How does someone avoid sloppy, wonky, inconsistant and generally ugly patterns with 4 or more objects? For a beginner and also as someone who has tried for years to chase difficult goals with bad form?

Thank you

*I may be asking in the wrong place

James Hennigan - - Parent

Can you specify which patterns exactly you are talking about? And also what is it about your technique that you consider 'sloppy'?

To avoid sloppy patterns in general, you could try the "don't practice mistakes" method. If you feel the pattern is too messy (maybe you're moving around too much or you're turning around or something) then just collect the props and stop juggling. Work on shorter, controlled runs. Stop when you find yourself juggling with bad form.

This is what I do with patterns like 744. Some days I can't do it for very long without moving all over the place, so I just work on shorter runs where I can stand still.

RegularJugular - - Parent

Almost any pattern, but it's easier to describe symmetrical patterns, most typically the 5 ball cascade. I used to guage my patterns quality by how long I could run them for now I want to see a beautiful pattern. So sloppiness would be anything that causes the pattern not to be smooth. Typical of my 5 ball cascade:

  • Inconsistent heights (by a significant amount)
  • Throws out of plane e.g Forward or Backward
  • Lopsided cross, one peak higher than the other
  • Constantly trying to correct for any of the above

After a while one or another* will become apparent.

For a while now I have deliberately practised short, controlled runs** for the majority of my practice. I have experienced some improvement when I stick to it, but very rapid reversal of improvement when I don't.

The biggest problem I had with that sort of method is I used not to be able to identify what the mistakes were or the different levels of importance to each mistake.

I was wondering if there is a concise way to describe good practice technique, perhaps there isn't.

*These cover just about any error result possible, but not root causes

**I try to make sure I'm doing much more of the base cascade or fountain pattern than tricks so I'm not confusing my subconscious too much.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Don't practise the mistakes. Take your juggling to the level where you can fully concentrate on your body posture and perfect throw. This will most likely mean 1 ball.

I don't like this much, but working on 1 ball throws with a trainer who watches did help to clean up my juggling.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yeh .. be (anytime) ready to question your basics as there might be improvement in there, which is yet hidden to you.

7b_wizard - - Parent

my two cents: I believe body posture, arm movement and the pattern should fit one another to be a smoothly running whole. I think errors come from too tensed juggling, from too much effort used, from having to correct a lot.

For the pattern this means: Aim the height, the region, the area, the top of the pattern, that is needed at your beat-interval well. (Or, vice versa: adopt your beat-speed to your preferred height). Stay in the plane. This can be achieved by imagining or actually using a bar to throw over or a ring to throw through (every single throw! constantly.). Know that height to throw to, have it internalized, automatic, 'by heart'. Don't ever do any lower throws, always get the minimum height.

For posture, this means to find which stance suits you best, for instance either have feet parallel or one foot (the stronger or weaker one) slightly ahead, or else for instance slightly bend knees or not, or still else for instance, sway body's weight from one foot to other in a rhythm while juggling, or else, still, put feet nearer or further apart. Take the pattern near your body (corresponds to upper arms hanging straight down). Watch what your hips and your shoulder-line do when juggling.

For arm's posture and arm's and hand's movement: don't juggle too far ahead of your body as it causes unnecessary tension in upper arm and shoulder. Find a way of getting props on height easily without too much effort, for example by loosening your wrists and profiting from greater lever throwing from a fingerbasket, or else by getting more thrust from hearty scoops (on cost of some more dwell-time needed),   ( or even else - which I don't recommend - by working out to have more muscle power, force and condition, endurance, to keep the pattern up even when far ahead of your body or constantly slightly tensed or grasping balls with whole hand in full palm without much lever ).

Generally an awareness of the body, where there's most tension, then changing something there, trying differently, leads to improvement of posture and arm movement. Juggling as lax as would keep the pattern up a few periods, as lazy as would go, as monotoneous as possible for example. Trying out differently throwing a lot, different arm posture, pulling the pattern to and shifting it away from you, doing wider and narrow, throwing fromout lower or fromout higher, more or less scoop, more from inside, trying faster, speedy throwing movement (= shorter dwell-time), .. things alike will an find an easier posture and style and technique(s). Varying the pattern's height, width, speediness will find your easiest (or easier) pattern that will then also suit posture and arm movement and make it a rhythmic fluent smooth whole.

I also think to have spotted some instincts to overcome: not wanting to hit your face and eyes, maybe is, what makes us throw precarious throws ahead all the time. Maybe trying to avoid collisions makes us leave the front plane. The height per beat (or vice versa)-ratio from doing less props maybe sits so deep, that it needs be overcome when oing more props (with those more props's dwelltime needs to be gained above the mere physical flight-time).

Even more general, meta: When sth feels wrong, a change is obviously needed. By varying everything (pattern, posture, movement, props, conditions), one increases the chance to find the improvements (q.e.d.), instead of doing same over and over again, hoping for it to 'happen' from alone or from stronger muscles.

I've had long easy runs with 5b cascade and periods where it did feel as easy as walking, as could go on forever that way, but I don't get it anytime and it's not simple, not obvious to find back into. Throwing from looser wrists; pulling the pattern near my body; aiming well in the first place ('feeding' the top of the pattern) were my clues to get near 1,000 throws with 5b without burning arms.

RegularJugular - - Parent

I think this is a helpful list of things to look for. It condenses most of the things I'd tried so far and a bit more into one post.

#Practice #Technique #HandyReference #JugglingWisdom

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Where you throw the ball is less important than when you throw the ball. Cadence is quite difficult to see from a video, but you should be able to feel it when you juggle.

The balls should be coming out of your hands with the precision of a metronome. The things you list (height, plane, lopsidedness) are symptoms of bad cadence.

The throws in a beautiful juggling pattern occur at equal time intervals.

Good: Left....Right....Left....Right....Left....Right....
Bad: Left..Right......Left..Right......Left..Right......

RegularJugular - - Parent

This is something I hadn't thought about for years and certainly hadn't attributed enough importance to. I did a small amount of 'investigative juggling' and it seems to support your observation.

I think it would help to juggle a bit higher than minimum height to achieve the best control and feeling of timing*. Do you agree?



*It also looks better for an audience

RegularJugular - - Parent

This seems to have got me and 7b_wizard thinking. Answering my own question: I observed that whatever height I am used to has a strong impact on how well I can control cadence, as well as getting a height that cadence is better controlled at.

It should be self-evident that beautiful patterns will have even cadence(s*).



*cadence for each siteswap orbit

7b_wizard - - Parent

On "height(s)": I have different heights for 5b cascade:
-   a ``secure´´ one about barely a foot above head where I get my very long runs casually starting first several hundred throws from easier, faster pattern [see next below], or, when i feel secure, get back to that lower, faster pattern:
-   fluent, very easy \ "easiest", snapped-in pattern at about head height or slightly below. This pattern, its height respectively, is more risky, more liable to breakdown on outbreakers or drifts, less easy to correct or save, and I can hold it for a few hundred throws at its best. It would, alone, not make for very long runs.
-   everything below that (Eye-nose-height. Chin and below.) is drop bound below 100-120 catches (Chin: max 30 throws).
-   then a high height, outdoors without ceiling, about two / two and a half feet above head, about low 7b-height. Time plenty to scoop nicely and much more time to comfortably give thrust from forearm with few wrist-work (which latter will again be necessary with 7b on that low 7b-height, though). There or higher, aiming well to keep the balls in comfort reach fitting posture and arm's degrees of freedom get more attention. (anything above that will make me have to step to where balls land and patterns high up there will be liable to tear apart, .. guess, due to lotsa whole arm + shoulder work + more effort then making throws unprecise)

I believe, that such staggered different comfortable, `best´ heights are a direct consequence of the anatomy of the arm and its part's degrees of freedom depending on how much wrist is used, how much forearm is used, how much the upper arm moves, how much the shoulder takes part in the throw. There will be maxima and minima for any reasonable combination of the arm's part's moving together, the kinematic chain, i suppose.
[further reading, (technical; biokinematics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_solution,   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/321_kinematic_structure,   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinematic_chain,   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_freedom_%28mechanics%29,   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulated_robot, haven't yet found human arm's kinematic chain or degrees of freedom for moving or handling sth, even though i suspected sport's science to be concerned with such]

7b_wizard - - Parent

#biokinematics #heights #forces
Also, in Wes Peden's SALT there's a few clips with drawings of the human arm with ball in hand and forces and levers acting in and on everything, that go in direction of this topic.

7b_wizard - - Parent

#science

7b_wizard - - Parent

This should relate to showers and half-showers, where galopping is natural part of the pattern. So, maybe alternating between halfshower and cascade can increase an awareness for flawful galoping in the cascade (e.g. caused by lower throws from weakhand, or by some asymmetry in posture) and either get rid of an unwanted galop, or else adopt it as doing such slight asymmetry (in shape and beat) on purpose (if it feels more comfortable like that). Or maybe for example practise halfshowers and showers bothsided in order to 'merge' both hand's galop until they are equal then also for the cascade.

7b_wizard - - Parent

> "[..] caused by weakhd, asym posture [..]" .. or simply by emphasized beat or counting on every 2.nd beat (galop then done by the mind, with no physical cause).

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. which gets me to what i did, to count on weakhand's beats (even changing emphasis from weakhd to stronghd in e.g. a nine-rhythm during running pattern) to try and get rid of weakhand low throws when i feel it be necessary. (until you do that correction back to stable pattern automatically whenever necessary without much special intent then anymore needed)

 

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