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Stephen Meschke -

GDPR and Juggling. Is recording a juggler without consent prohibited?

When the weather is nice, I love training outside. Occasionally, other park-goers will ask to record video of me for social media. I always give consent and then hit one of the quick tricks that I train for this specific scenario. This makes me feel good because it shows that juggling is interesting enough to record and share. I have been paid up to $5 as well!

I am 100% certain (but have no proof) that people record me without asking for my consent. This doesn't bother or intimidate me, but I can sympathize with other jugglers who are find this behavior intrusive and distracting. In the USA it is legal to record someone and then post that content online without their permission.

NPR reported that the GDPR, "forbids people from posting anyone's picture online without their permission." After hearing the news story, I am left with these questions:

  • Does the GDPR affect the legality of recording a juggler in public without their consent?
  • If a juggler finds images or videos taken and posted online without permission, what can be to get the content removed?
  • If filming a juggling video, it is necessary to obtain permission from people in the background before posting the video online?

Guili - - Parent

I've been recorded juggling many times, some of them without my consent... and it never bothered me. but i do think some people may feel it's not right. either for privacy, or for like trademark issues... you know. if someone records your show, you won't be able to sell a dvd later, some like that...
so, out of respect, yes, i think consent must be asked.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Don't spend those 5 bucks - keep 'em as a trophy!

Danny Colyer - - Parent

GDPR affects what businesses and organisations are allowed to do with personally identifying data, meaning data that can be used to identify an individual.

GDPR does not affect what individuals are allowed to do. In the UK, at least, there is no legal requirement to seek anyone's consent before taking photos or video in a public place, and that will continue to be the case.

I don't know what NPR is, or whether it's a reputable news source, but I'd hazard a guess that the story was written by someone who hasn't read GDPR. I have. Three times. And I wouldn't claim to to be certain about what it means in every possible data storage/processing/sharing scenario. But I can say with certainty that an individual would not be in breach of GDPR by posting a photo or video without the subject's consent. I suppose, conceivably, the company that owns the hosting site might have a problem. It's not something that's relevant to my reasons for reading the regulation, so it's not something I was looking for in any of my own readings, but I'm pretty sure there was no intent to ban photo sharing.

Javitxuzo -

Hi people!
I'm new in this forum. I'm Javi a spanish juggler & uniciclyst and I have recently moved to San Francisco.
Currently I'm trying to juggling with 5 clubs but is being very difficult, any tip would be appreciated.

See you in the forum

(Sorry for my english :P )

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi there, Javi!

Guili - - Parent

bienvenido javi!
ya somo varios de habla hispana en el foro :)
un saludo desde argentina!

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. yo, un vario desde alemaña :oD

Ethan -

Hi.

Quick question regarding shoes for juggling stage performances:

Anyone have a favorite style of shoe the like to wear while they perform? I've tried jazz shoes for a few years now, and they tend to not have enough grip for 360s etc. So, any suggestions?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I love feiyues, it's a kungfu shoe which is popular among Chinese pole acrobats and circus students in general. But they don't look great on stage.
For pretty shoes I like Bleyer, custom colors and everything. Email them about their grip soles, for a fiver extra you get great soles on your shoes.
If you need standard smart/dress shoes go to shoesforcrews. They look basic but feel almost like a sneaker and have great grip.

Ethan - - Parent

Thank you so much for the suggestions! I've just ordered a pair of Feiyues, and I'm going to be ordering some shoes from Bleyer for an upcoming performance!

Cheers.

Dee - - Parent

​Coming from a ballet background, I would say to think about your "push off" technique. You shouldn't need to use your other foot at all to generate rotation. A bad technique can cause injury, it may be worthwhile to attend some dance classes to improve your technique to try to minimise the risk of injury in the longer term.

Ethan - - Parent

Thanks! I'll definitely look into it!

lukeburrage - - Parent

In ballet, do you use your upper body and arms to generate rotation? That’s cool for dancing, but for juggling you are often using your arms for something else at the time you want to begin generating rotational force.

Dee - - Parent

You use a surprising amount of stomach muscles to generate rotation, with some shoulder (but more stomach than people realise).

Techniques will need to be adapted for juggling (of course), but going to more grippy shoes because of "push off" issues is more likely to cause problems - with the rotating foot getting stuck and twisting knees.

Unless a character would have a reason for wearing different shoes, then I would recommend refining a technique that enables jugglers to avoid knee injury caused by jarring.

Orinoco - - Parent

You use a surprising amount of stomach muscles to generate rotation, with some shoulder (but more stomach than people realise).

Specifically your internal & external oblique abdominal muscles. So standard sit ups won't help.

Orinoco - - Parent

If you are doing a lot of 360s then less grippy shoes are a better option.

I think most people have the same instinct that more grip = more force to launch the spin = better spins. However, if you spin with a grippy soled shoe it puts a rotational stress on your knee which is a major cause for knee operations among salsa dancers. This is why you won't find many grippy dance shoes. The other way of looking at the problem is: Reducing friction = less force required to spin = better spins.

I'm convinced that the reason why jugglers who wear trainers get better at 360s is because they gradually wear away the grip from the one foot they consistently spin on.

I started getting problems with my knees due to dancing so I started wearing these Cotton soled kung fu shoes. It took a while to adjust but it has definitely made things easier & I won't be going back.

Ethan - - Parent

Yes, I would agree.

The main problem is that the foot that is kicking off the spin does not have enough grip. Which means that there is ultimately not enough force generated to create multiple fast and clean spins.

Those cotton soled shoes look very comfortable!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi Ethan, @ all - would it make sense to wear two different shoes (L+R), one for pushing \kicking off, and one for the stance foot turning, maybe? Or have a rubber cap for the pushing foot ( that you can slip over when needed and take off when not anymore ) ? (don't they have it in bowling?)

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

Ofek Snir is notorious for his super fast spins (7-up 1080!) and he wears a sock on his spinning foot and goes barefoot on his other. Not often appropriate for performing, but he pulled it off in "Sock It".

7b_wizard - - Parent

Ah, okay. Impressing! .. I'd still go with what Dee said above - sounds profund and very plausible. ( So Ofek is maybe an exeption to the rule, with maybe his own technique perfectionned, or maybe evn bluntly doing it wrong and overstressing his anatomy on the long run )

Btw., I myself get dizzy after a one stage 540° turn lol and try it only rarely.

Scott Seltzer -

https://www.wired.com/story/the-physicsand-physicalityof-extreme-juggling/ - links to the Edge. The video is nice, too.

barnesy - - Parent

Nice. I wouldn't like to question Alex Barron's abilities, but I wonder if that 25 near the end was meant to be a 15? Perhaps not, I dunno!

Orinoco - - Parent

Jack Kalvan's original paper stated the average was 16 & the highest was 24 so Alex's 25 seems legit.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Cool article! I'm looking forward to Jack's book now!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Nice video too:
https://youtu.be/7RDfNn7crqE

peterbone - - Parent

I actually misquoted myself in my post that's linked to in the article. The original quote in the IJDB article is "Finally, Peter agrees with Ben Beever in his belief that someone will flash 14 balls someday but not 15."

I've always been careful to not say that I think that 15 is impossible, but made one lapse which happens to have been picked up in the Wired article.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I have nothing to lose - I can say it, so here we go:

15 balls is im-poss-si-ble.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

16 balls will be flashed but not 17

Guili - - Parent

sounds like a prophecy... haha

but I think mankind has an ability to overcome seemingly impossible obstacles... regardless of the price to itself, others, the earth, etc...

so, one day, what was impossible, is not anymore :)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Perhaps many 'impossibilities' are overcome able, if the incentive is high enough... With the amount of money and organization that goes into football, I'm sure jugglers could reach an unimaginably high skill level. But is it likely that juggling will ever be that high on the list for future societies?

I suppose that's the bottleneck, people don't care enough.. I recon any young person who really wants to can learn to flash 11 balls, yet only a couple dozen people have done so..

Guili - - Parent

agreed. and juggling could hardly get as big as a bussiness like football is.
but we jugglers also have obsession and stubborness helping us :)
with the way it's been spread around the world maybe it's just waiting for the next boy-genius.

Sergei -

Juggler's tennis.
Enigma for the beginner (me). My deepest gratitude to 7b_wizard who adviced to practice Shower on incline surface. I guess not very useful for the Shower, but it works perfectly well for Tennis )) I have got the feeling of the pattern in 10 minutes using beanbags and inlined list of cardboard. Any other ideas with Tennis ?

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Interesting that you find shower easier than tennis. I think its harder.
You can try siteswap 423 where the 3 are reverse, its known as real tennis. But i think you might want to learn other 423 variations first. (If 423 doesnt mean anything to you, you might want to read about siteswap)

Sergei - - Parent

I guess I am practicing 423 as "W" variation and it works well for me. Currently working on various 2 in 1 to be able to do other forms of 423

7b_wizard - - Parent

Have you seen this: http://www.libraryofjuggling.com/Tricks/3balltricks/JugglersTennis.html
The 2.nd animation with the black ball shows best how it's   normal--normal--overthrow--a.s.o.   ( overthrows in a 3-beat ) and because that overthrow is higher, it makes sense to also throw \release it from higher (else it will land too late).
Lib'O'Jugg suggests to train those overthrows in a slower tact, only once in a while from normal cascade (3.rd animation).
An overthrow is not(!), and not to be confused with an usual reverse throw that flies to and lands near the middle (or: inside), but it flies over the whole pattern to the outside of catchhand.
And, hey, why not indeed use a different ball (or Paint It Black) for those overthrows!?

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks a lot for explanations. Of course, I am using different color over-throw ball to be sure I am on the right track. I guess I have to work more on the incline cardboard to be sure my hands do the pattern without thinking. Tennis is pretty funny and nice looking trick. What a pity I began learning juggling at so old age (( I expect it will takes me twice more time to master simple routines (Cascade, RC, HS and Tennis)

7b_wizard - - Parent

twice more time .. don't underestimate, how understanding what goes on, and the flexibility of a lot of general experience and wisdom, will hopefully keep you from waisting a lot of practise time on inefficient practise ( I'm only about ten years younger and - too stubborn on 7b - still doing that wrong lol )

Sergei - - Parent

Probably I am not seriously motivated for Juggling and don't see very attractive goals. Surely I don't want to become a "great juggler" )) In my twenties I was pretty good in weight-lifting, in my forties I have got 4 DAN (grade) black belt in Shotokan karate , in my sixties I have got International Chess Master Dyploma (FIDE) in blitz chess online. It surely were very tasty goals ))) I guess I am doing "recreational juggling" and it is very useful activity for total body coordination. Some psychological rewards in form of small achievements as "I was able to do 11 catches in Shower". At this moment I am practising 2-in-1 practice and it is great to feel my clumsy hands slowly getting more and more dexterity. Probably good "recretaional juggler" (up to the Box) will be reasonable goal for me ))

Maria - - Parent

When I started juggling (at age 30), my main goals were "become good enough to impress friends and family", "juggle torches" and "learn club passing". I don't know how impressed my friends and family are (they are kind of used to me juggling by now), but I can juggle torches a little bit and I do club passing twice a week.

Now my main goal is to become a good club passer. Actually... The main goal is to have fun with friends, but for me, that involves doing lots of club passing. So I want to be a good club passer to be able to participate in all kinds of crazy passing patterns. :)

Other goals are to learn 5 balls, then 5 clubs, and doing more partner juggling/passing with the two colleagues that sometimes juggle with me at the lunch breaks.

Sergei - - Parent

Doing torches at night ... really impressive

Hermit Of Masada -

Hi guys, promised you more questions, so here they are! Ive been having some thoughts about the subject of fitness for jugglers.
What fitness exercises you find are the most valuable for jugglers?
Cardio makes you sharper and more energized, so thats an obvious choice.
When i juggle clubs for a long time i can feel the strain on my forearms (maybe im using to much wrist?) And its obvious to me that 5 ball endurance takes some muscle.
What do you guys think? Is fitness even that relevant, or is juggling itself the best exercise to develop the abilities needed? What do you do to keep in shape?

Sergei - - Parent

to my humble opinion, most jugglers are pretty weak guys. I reasonably doubt they can bench-press more than own weight. So my recommendations will be to have some upper-body muscles, especially pectoralis major and triceps. Bar-dips will be ideal. Reasonable standard 20 reps for guys under 50 y/o and 10 reps for grand-pa over 60 )))

7b_wizard - - Parent

Juggling is not a force act, I believe. ( "We're not juggling cannonballs, right." )
Getting the rhythm snapped-in to the point, aiming and precision, agility, speediness, speedy thinking, handspeed, wristyness are crucial.
At least for for upto 5-6-7 balls, clubs dunno, guess ~5c.
There is though, a phase when you're not mastering a challenging pattern yet, where you're liable to do tensed, to fight to even keep it up and going, .. there then, having a bit of muscle power will keep you from wearing off soon in long sessions. But that's not the clue in the first place to getting better, to seizing a patterns rhythm and ratioes well and to optimizing your movements along pattern's needs, along a perfect comfortable, nimble, smooth pattern.

In that sense, I totter and limber up, stretch, do arm-circles and -twists an' stuff to prevent soreness. My concession to strength is doing 200g balls a bit for warmup, and I think, it serves me well for 7b cascade (and 9b flashing).

( "Working out on big muscles only makes your arms heavier!" :p )

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Juggling sure isn't a force act, but it is all about endurance. What ive learned from watching 5b andurance comoetitions is that you use less streght when you have proper technique, but when you get tired your technique becomes worse and worse and you have to compensate more using muscle, which gets you even more tired and so on. It shows in ofek snir 5b record, i believe.
It goes double for clubs. 30 minutes into a club session there is no way i can get more than a flash of 4 clubs. Surely if i had better technique it wouldn't have to be so hard.
Also some muscle tone is needed to prevent and minimize injuries.
Its evident that a juggler doesn't (or even should'nt) have to be a bodybuilder to be a great juggler, but technique can only take you so far to my understanding. Same goes for strength of course.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, endurance is a point where you get into doing tensed after a while and where it's good to not have to give in to a lack of muscle power.
But I made the experience - when doing 5b endurance (for minutes only, not hours like Ofek) - that finding back into perfect swift smooth pattern will indeed find back into a relaxed pattern  ( sometimes all of a sudden, when snapping-in again out of nowhere )  that will keep on going much longer with muscles then relaxing again, as opposed to fighting yourself through such bad phases with primarily muscle power that you will soon or late have to give in to. So, to me, that's my credo, my approach to it all, the perfectly mastered pattern is the clue, and doing with muscle power only the bad but sometimes unavoidable way when the pattern is going astray, then testifying that I'm doing something wrong. It should at its best be like walking, I believe, not like powering oneself through it with more effort than absolutely necessary.

Guili - - Parent

in my opinion is really helpfull to be a little in shape. i mean, i don't go out to run, but i do stretch like 10 minutes everyday i juggle. it's important to loosen up every muscle and joint. legs, back, neck, wrists, elbows.
also as i do have kinda weak tendons, i try to reinforce them with a little of weight lifting.
every other day, after stretching, i make 10 reps of 4 different movementes. it doesn't tire me. gives me muscle, and i also take the chance to use it to stretch a little.

Sergei - - Parent

My point is that juggling mostly involves biceps, deltoids and wrist flexing muscles. Opposite important muscles are not working. Exercises for one group of muscles without working on opposites leads to negative effects in spinal motor roots. I greatly enjoy juggling lying down on my coach )) Watch David Cain setting world records in this position )) Doing bar-dips 20 reps is just minimum fitness standard. "Heavy arms" require 20 reps with at least 100 - 200 lb additional weight. It doesn't make one SLOW, watch shot-put and disc throw competiotions ))

Guili - - Parent

sorry, i don't understand what you're saying, i'm not that much into fitness.
I just use a 3kg. weight to keep my arms strog, and they didn't get any slower by this.

Maria - - Parent

I believe that I would be able to juggle 4 clubs a bit longer if I was stronger. My arms usually get tired after about 100 catches.

I don't do enough to keep in shape, and nothing that is specifically for juggling, barely a minimum to keep healthy.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yes, I believe fitness is relevant. I can easily tell the difference between when I'm fairly fit and when I've spent some time off fitness by how I feel with my juggling. I am also FAR more prone to injury if I'm not particularly fit.

I was the fittest I ever had been when I went to my first IJA and stayed high-energy through the entire fest. IJA 2013...not so much. Had to pace myself, couldn't do hard stuff all the time, it was rough.

Hermit Of Masada -

hello everyone! my name is Yonatan, and i have to admit i have already had a thread here a couple of years back about 5 ball training. I'm ashamed to admit though that the reason I'm posting now is the exact same... i took a really really long break from juggling due to leukemia (all fine now! got me some new bone marrow and I'm three years healthy) and a friend of mine who just got back from the ijc convinced me to get back into it, which I'm super excited about.
since my return to juggling a few things bothered my over analytical database-oriented brain. the first thing was that i don't know how people train. so first question, and this is fairly subjective so i know you gonna have more than a few opinions on this (though I'll be glad to know if any of you have a study on the subject):
what do you find the most efficient way for you to train? working for one specific goal the whole session (trying to get this one trick down)? getting all over the place (working your 5 balls for some time, getting tired and changing it up with some 3 ball body throws or even setting the balls aside for a bit and picking up the diabolo)? or working on similar but different tricks (4 ball shower and 5 balls both have hard tall throws, so lets do both)?
I have a notebook i keep my juggling thoughts in, so i might lay a few more on you the next time i get a chance ;).
P.S
been training 5 balls using Thom Wall's guide.. wanted to get your input on it (i can get ~25 throws of right 5551, qualified left 5551, get a flash of 5551 in my fountain and semi-consistent flash 5)

Mike Moore - - Parent

Welcome back and I'm happy to hear you're healthy!

I have a few "focus patterns" that I make sure I put some time into every session. Depending on where I am in those patterns and how things are going on that day, the amount of time for each varies from 3-~15 minutes. Then I have some secondary patterns/pattern families that I try to chip away at when I remember.

My warm up tends to be a "whatever I feel like for a little", sometimes with a focus on a certain type of movement (e.g. left-handed dots, body throw combos, etc.). When warming up for numbers, I try to incorporate patterns that are below my skill level, but unpracticed, so that I have to do lots of corrections. Corrections warm up the body very quickly!

I practically only train with balls. I don't have enough time or skill to make meaningful contributions to juggling with a diversity of props. I do play with other props some, but mostly socially and not too seriously.

Thom Wall's guide + sweat + time = 5b cascade :)

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

hi man! thanks! what do you mean you do corrections? how do you purposely get in a situation you need to correct?

Mike Moore - - Parent

I find that patterns that are unpracticed but below my general technical skill result in having to do many corrections while keeping the pattern alive. The ones I enjoy right now are some flashes of siteswaps out of a 5b reverse cascade. Balls go everywhere, but because I have a pretty solid 5b and those siteswaps are pretty easy for my in a normal cascade, I can wrangle everything back in and repeat.

And if all else fails, I listen to Chandelier by Sia. I can't help but move a bunch after seeing that amazing music video way too many times.

Orinoco - - Parent

Maddie Ziegler is awesome!!!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yeah, downright mindblowing. There are times when I see/hear something that makes me realize I had no idea how good at certain things people are. Sort of like an abrupt mental re-benchmarking Some examples:

William Lin's BJC performance way back
Maddie Ziegler's Chandelier video
When a competitive classical singer that I was teaching chemistry to sang (!!!)
Occasional research papers (the Nobel Prize one on neutrino oscillations where they had to filter out the radioactivity from THE WIRES IN THEIR ELECTRONICS comes to mind, as well as some of the framework-development ones in educational research).

Do you (or anyone else) remember those types of moments? What are some that come to mind?

The Void - - Parent

The Picture Of Dorian Grey and Vanity Fair.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'll have to move those up the reading list a bit. Thanks for the recommendations.

Have you read Thinking Fast and Slow? I'm only partially finished it but am enjoying it an awful lot! Go figure: a book that explains part of how your thought patterns work is good at influencing your thought patterns.

Orinoco - - Parent

oooh, good question... ones that immediately spring to mind.

Lars Andersen - archery

Jane Zhang doing the Diva song from the Fifth Element live with no synthesizer assistance.

https://youtu.be/kJl2uPNsJEk

Adam Winrich - whip cracking

https://youtu.be/Wzd34P5uTtU

Sean DeBurca - fingerstyle guitar, I first saw Sean perform live in Tunbridge Wells when he was I think 17 years old, I had never heard fingerstyle before.

https://youtu.be/8d_1m_hyYEM

Veronika Petrova, Inna Lymar, & Yuriy Danilchenko - skipping

https://youtu.be/UdLt70d-4kQ

Mike Moore - - Parent

Sometimes when I see something that SHOULD reframe how I see a discipline, I can feel myself rationalizing that I had obviously thought of that before, or that "of course it should be at this level". It's kind of hard to explain, but that's how I felt when I first saw Lars's archery video (and how I used to see Dave Kelly's and Chris Hodge's videos). Almost like they're doing something categorically different, and the stuff they're doing CAN'T be similar to what I've seen before.

That whip cracking video was something else!

I don't know why, but I've randomly encountered so many VERY good skippers. In high school I saw a professional skipper perform in a talent show. At Turbofest in the first few years I went (2010-~2012?) there was a really amazing skipper. In Japan, while walking the streets randomly, I came across this:

https://youtu.be/mFjU2y_CVU0

It's funny how things happen.

And the middle section of that Raw Art video was very cool!

Orinoco - - Parent

Congratulations on the health front! Facing leukemia is a far more impressive trick than a 5 ball cascade so this should be easy for you!

Don't focus too much on 5 ball like patterns. Getting a good start when you launch the pattern is really important, & launching 2 balls from one hand is different to launching 3 so make sure you practice that part.

Also try to practice a little bit more than a flash as soon as possible, even if it is just 1 more throw. With a flash it is fairly easy to compensate for errors in rhythm, during the running pattern, not so much.

If you like data & analysis ty keeping a practice log, it can draw graphs for you & everything!

Maria - - Parent

Wrong address in the "log" link, it doesn't work. :)

Orinoco - - Parent

I should know that by now!

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Thanks man! valuable input. so you say i should stick to the flashes to learn launching 5 balls?
the practice log was a major reason to come back here, though i never used it before :P

Orinoco - - Parent

I think so.

I don't think it is worthwhile breaking down base patterns (3, 5, 7 ball cascade etc) too much. The best practice for a 5 ball cascade is a 5 ball cascade. Breaking things into components only makes sense to me for combination tricks involving different skills, & for more complex patterns where you need to do different types of throw.

In a cascade every ball does the same thing, for 5+ balls the important points are rhythm, accuracy & speed. If you take out a ball for 55550 it is still possible to do the pattern without the correct timing which allows bad habits to develop.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi Hermit,

for 5 ball cascade, I warmly recommend this: http://juggling.tv/16767 with 3 balls, the idea being: if you can't do it with 3 balls, how can you expect to get it with five?! And it will be necessary to keep a 5 ball cascade up and to get it stable, that one has at least somewhat of control on most of those dimensions shown in the vid, especially 5b speed (and handspeed) and 5b height (and precision \accuracy \aiming well there), but also for correcting or for working against any drifts, twists, furthermore for controlling the front plane, then for finding your most comfortable and efficient posture, so far for what I can think of.
It's pure cascade training; this approach skips any 4b exercises, but as you seem to be getting along well with the fountain and siteswaps, all this is maybe just a minor alternative. Yet, checking it out at least briefly might find the one or other exercise that could be a precious clue for improving on 5b.

( I'm afraid my practise, though structured mostly after priorities, that i stubbornly work on, a huge ``plight´´-part, "good-fors" and only a small ``leisure´´-part, .. afraid, my practise isn't as efficient as should, so I'd rather not extend on it. )

cheers & happy juggling

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Thanks man! thats a lot of material! I always check my posture when juggling, but having a check list like this might be beneficial.

Sergei -

3 ball Shower for old mentally retarded beginner. Just made 10 catches dominant hand Shower. It was pure luck. Left hand only preliminary exercise - two throws left hand + right hand pass and total mess. Any ideas how to learn and improve Shower ? as I understand it is probably intermediate level trick.

The Void - - Parent

Think of it as
Throw,
Throw & zip,
Throw & zip,
Throw & zip,
etc.
Also, try to hold the zipping hand a little higher than the throwing hand. It's easier to zip/pass the ball slightly *downwards* than straight across or upwards.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks for advice. Is it possible to make it geometrically more like a correct CIRCLE ?

The Void - - Parent

Personally, I think of it as an isoceles triangle. If you want to be more circular, hold your hands further apart. But that will make the zips more difficult. Experiment!

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Nice and solid two ball version before you progress to three. Keep the two throws (zip throw and up throw) roughly the same distance ie *don't pass the 'zipped' ball* - throw it horizontally with some force. Keep your hands apart and as still as possible (then the next pattern (box) will be much easier.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks for your advice. Yes, I am already looking forward for Box and already practice 2 ball exercise for the Box. My humble guess it is also good for Shower

7b_wizard - - Parent

There is also the "half-shower" (with 3 balls): ___ you throw only outside throws with one hand on its side (rather with stronghand), and only inside throws with the other hand on the other side. The siteswap for that is then not 51, but ``regular´´ 3. The outside throws a bit higher and the inside throws a bit lower, then ( for the higher balls to pass well over the top and not get any collisions ). Then looks a bit more like a half-circle too, but essentially feels notably slower.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. it's a bit like juggler's tennis, but all tennis throws, every second throw, and only those, now to the same side. ( like a tennis-ball-feeding-machine. if you want. :o| )

Sergei - - Parent

You can not even imagine how I love Half-Shower !
Worked very seriously on this pattern, but it was non-reciprocal love ))) So I shifted to preliminary exercises for full Shower, more difficult pattern, with hope that new skills will be useful for my beloved HS ))) Funny that I possibly will learn Shower BEFORE HS )))

Monte - - Parent

I learned shower before cascade, I also do 4 clubs in singles and never learned it in doubles. Not sure if it matters what order you learn things at first. Just enjoy your progression.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I think some order, at first, is important. Better to learn cascade first. It's easier so more likely not give up. Shower should be learned in both directions. Shower and cascade are quite different motor skills. The half shower is a kind of lazy shower (sometimes called lazy shower I think). It caused me bad habits and the real shower and box were more difficult than they needed to be.

Sergei - - Parent

tried half-shower today after abstaining for a week and attempts to learn full shower. I feel HS goes better now. My humble goal is to have stable 10 cycles HS (20 catches?) both hands. It is really nice pattern ))

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Slightly off topic - I remember you mentioning you were practicing the reverse cascade. Have you tried the RC with arms crossed? Keep them crossed, left hand doing the job of the right hand, right hand doing the job of the left. If you can juggle RC it's much easier than you think and it looks far more difficult than it is. Just takes a little while for your brain to realise it's the same as RC but the hands are swapped position and then it 'clicks'.

Sergei - - Parent

yes, reverse cascade for me is more easy than normal cascade )) but to do it crossed arms ??? I am not sure I am ready for this witchcraft )))

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

There's a momentary 'crosswires' in your brain when you first try but very quickly you can do it, if you can already do RC. Just jump straight in with three balls. Try to do three throws first. Your brain will make sense of it quickly. It's a good 'quick fix' when you're learning things that might take a little longer.. like shower/s and box.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks. I guess I ought to try it just to make some middle level brain injury )) need to look for step by step tutorial on Net

Sergei - - Parent

Just created exercise # 1 for crossed arm cascade : arms crossed with 2 balls in one hand tossing "one-two" into the empty hand/ Hope it is not idiotic idea ))

orlando -

hi my name is Orlando and I am have been juggling for 2 years. I am 13 years old. I am trying to learn the mills mess. Any tips welcome. Thanks.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi Orlando.
For Mills Mess - it's Windmills with a sidechange on the crosshand throw. So, doing both ways' windmills, then getting the sidechange should get it. I think, the first crosshand throw after sidechange should be over the other arm, then another reverse throw, then a crosshand throw under the other arm. All throws to the middle.

Mats1 - - Parent

Watch a slow-mo video of it and then learn to throw the first 3 throws of it. Once you can do that a bit consistantly, learn to do the first 4 throws. Then once that is consistant, learn the first 5 throws. Then finally, the same with the 6th throw. You have then done one complete round of mills mess and can just practice running it for longer and longer. Every time you add the next throw, watch the video again to check what should happen.

Final tip (and the best one): Practice it a lot.

Terix -

When logging your training, do you subtract some time (for example when props fall down and you have to lift them up, when you change song at what you are juggling etc.)? :)
I usually have better feeling when I subtract it - usually seconds, but sometimes these are minutes of training :D

Maria - - Parent

No, I count picking up props as practise time. It would be impossible to keep track without actually using a stop watch or something like that otherwise, I drop a lot. Short, necessary breaks (like drinking water) are not subtracted either. Longer breaks (like, taking 5 minutes to discuss what passing pattern to do next) is usually subtracted. In general if I have 2h practise time I might log it as 100-110 minutes depending on how much time I feel like I spent talking or doing something else that is not juggling. I don't actually look on the clock every time I stop juggling.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Pretty much same here.
I log "on spot", "unidle" practise time including picking up drops, including tottering and limbering up a few seconds, excluding notable breaks doing sth else like for over a minute or minutes accumulated. Currently I'm estimating outdoor stint durations and practise minus driving time minus breaks, as I'm out without a watch.

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