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7b_wizard -

How do you cope with frustration?
Do you bear it and somehow get along with it, do you ``fight´´ it, do you try to find ``strategies´´ (whatever that might be) against it, do you try to avoid it, do you simply stop and have a break then stop for good that day or that session, do you simply do other tricks instead, do you try to find into a ``mindstate´´ patiently waiting for it to pass by, do you try to find the cause, do you .. well, how or what do you do?

Guili - - Parent

I try to blow out some steam.. haha... I'm not good disguising my feelings..
If, like today, I'm in no good state of mind to confront my frustration, I just call it a day.
Tomorrow might be better :)
Some other times I'm able to stop, clear my head and keep it up. but not today.. haha

7b_wizard - - Parent

^^hehe .. I call them "good for tomorrow days" and be it only killing lifetime doing \trying the pattern ;oD for example in a lax, lazy way if nothing else would go.

.. but then - I've so often had totally sudden very good runs, like a quantum jump right amidst very bad training .. so anything is possible any time, and I wanna be prepared to jump such trains ( and not like do ``fixated´´ within or haunted \cursed by any bad feelings ).

Terix - - Parent

I try to do another tricks and when I have just very bad juggling day, it is very uneasy for me to be calm and continue training, because I am quite a choleric person)) It helps me a lot to take rest, to watch any juggling videos or I love joggling - it is like juggling, but if I want, I can consider it just run)) So I can juggle and feel like I am not doing it :D
I think, I have no idea why is it so, that some days are very good for training, I can make a lot of personal records and some of them are lousy

7b_wizard - - Parent

no idea why is it so, that some days are very good for training, [..] and some of them are lousy

I think, it maybe comes from doing at the limit + (what I more and more observe on myself:) any different conditions - like when doing challenging stuff and not everything is well set, but sth disturbing or wind or cold or queerly lighted background everywhere or simply bad arms, then what you can normally do is simply harder under such conditions. On the other hand, great conditions don't grant for a new PR, not even always for good, fresh practise.

Little Paul - - Parent

My rule of thumb is “if you’re not enjoying it, and no one is paying you to do it, stop doing it”

So if I’m working on something and get frustrated, I’ll stop and do something else and come back to the frustrating thing later or another day.

I do this with all my hobbies, not just juggling. Sure it’s not the “most productive” or “highest return” strategy, but it is the most fun

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, sounds so reasonable, .. just .. as soon as you're doing towards a goal, you'll often get into that dilemma of "How bad an ado can I bear and go on trying?!" for the sake of having to walk over stones to get to the stars. [hire a poet, anyone?]

Maria - - Parent

First I try to calm down, take a deep breath, focus and see if I can figure out why things don't work. If that doesn't help, I usually switch to another trick. On a really bad day when it feels like nothing works, I try to do something I have never done before, or at least never been good at and not practised a lot. It could be just a new siteswap, but the idea is that if I have never done it before, I don't expect to get it so I don't get too frustrated by failing. And if I actually get the new trick the whole session feel a lot better. :)

Mike Moore - - Parent

As motivation has yielded to discipline, I find that I find frustration less often. If my performance is poor I'll work on something below my skill level that I'd been putting off.

Terix -

There is another thing I would like to talk about - when juggling 4 or 5 clubs, how much spin do you do? With 4 just one or two and with 5 two or three? Is there any difference for you? What is better and easier?
I am training now for 4 (I can´t even qualify now) and I feel that 2 spins are better and with 5 I can´t juggle at all, but I think that 2 spins are not too much - with 5 it is needed to juggle much higher.
So how do you do it?^^

Maria - - Parent

I do doubles for 4 clubs. I might learn to juggle them on singles, too, but I don't practise that very often.

For 5 I'm also trying to do doubles. Have not got more than a flash yet, though.

Terix - - Parent

And for how long do you train?

Maria - - Parent

For how long? Like, how long a practise session is, or how long I have been juggling? (My practise log could give you more detailed answers than I can write here.)

Anyway, I'm probably not the most ambitious jugger, I do want to learn five clubs some day but I'm not in a hurry and sometimes I don't practise it for weeks. I can't juggle five balls yet, either. Four clubs, though, I do every time I juggle clubs (except if it's in my living room).

When I was learning 4 clubs, I made a "mandatory warm up sequence" containing siteswaps with many 4s. I had to get that one at least once before I could practise anything I wanted. (I still use almost the same one as warm up, maybe I should switch to one focusing on siteswap 5 instead.)

Terix - - Parent

So "mandatory warm up sequence" - it was like juggling a lot of tricks with 4 clubs or props in general?
Yes, I was asking about training because not everybody writes on Practice logs every training)
I admire you if you can juggle 4 clubs, do you have any advices please? I can juggle 5 balls, but my record is about 22 sec, I am not a good juggler but I would like to be)

Maria - - Parent

It was a short 3-clob sequence to practise the throws in 4-club juggling. 3333423423441441444044144404413333 if you know siteswap. In the beginning I dropped often and had to try many times before I got that sequence, but I still think it was good warm up for trying 4 clubs afterwards. (I do log all my practise, with varying degree of detail, but I started juggling a few years before I started logging it.)

"lots of tricks with 4 clubs" is still a bit above my level, there are several tricks that I can do quite often but they are not solid.

So, advise for 4 clubs...
I assume that you can juggle 4 balls. Anything you practised to learn 4 balls is probably useful for 4 clubs as well.
Think about the angle of the club. When you do a fountain pattern you want the club to point a bit outwards when you throw it, to get a nice angle for catching it. In cascade, you throw it pointing inwards but catch it pointing outwards since you are throwing it to the other side, so this is the opposite angle while throwing to get the same angle while catching. (Clubs pointing in the wrong direction are hard to catch and more likely to hit your arms.)
Oh, and a friend of mine recommended trying 4c on singles quite soon, too. He says he didn't get 4c solid on doubles until he started practising it on singles, because that forced him to sort out any bad habits and do better throws. (I didn't really listen to this advise myself, I still can't do more than 10-15 catches on singles, but he is certainly a better juggler than I am...)

My record with 5 balls is 7 catches, so you are way ahead of me there. :)

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I train 4 and 5 clubs frequently. For juggling four clubs, I usually do doubles. For juggling 5 clubs, I train both double and triple spins. This is how I rate the difficulty of those tricks (running for 40 catches):

  • 3 club singles: 3 out of 100
  • 3 club doubles: 8 out of 100
  • 4 club doubles: 19 out of 100
  • 4 club singles: 26 out of 100
  • 5 club doubles: 75 out of 100
  • 5 club triples: 100 out of 100

Terix - - Parent

Thank you for exhaustive answer)) It is exactly what I was asking for) But... Now I have feeling that juggling 5 clubs isn´t possible for me :DD

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Juggling 5 clubs may not be physically possible for you, but I highly doubt that. The main consideration for me when scheduling my 5 club training is recovery. I am large and strong, and my body recovers from injury and exercise quickly because I eat and sleep well. When I train 5 clubs, I can do a lot of repetitions in one training session, and I can train 6 days a week.

If a juggler can only do a few repetitions (like 15 attempts at a 5 club flash) before having to stop for the day, it is going to take more time to learn the trick than another juggler who is physically capable of longer and more frequent training sessions.

Terix - - Parent

So to juggle for longer time at every training it is needed to have all body strong and to have strong muscular arms? I am not still sure where my borders are, but when I try to juggle 4 clubs I have to stop after few attempts because the fell on my wrists and it is very painful.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Increasing strength will allow you to get a few more good repetitions in before it's time to stop. So, in addition to training juggling, it may be helpful to do some resistance exercises to build muscle and gain strength.

From your description, it sounds like you have some problems with your technique that are making juggling a lot harder than it needs to be. Personally, when I am having a good day with 5 clubs, I don't find juggling to be physically taxing. If I am having a bad day, I have to make corrections on almost every throw and that is a lot harder.

Mats1 - - Parent

It's really hard to juggle 5 clubs. If you can't yet juggle 4, expect it to take quite some time! 4 clubs will feel easy when you can do even short runs of 5 clubs.

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

Probably 98% of people prefer 5 clubs with doubles as their base pattern. The doubles can be a bit loftier and slower spinning than you might use for 3 or 4. I'm a proficient 5 club juggler, and triples are a challenge for me to maintain for a long time since they're much more tiring and hard to get just right.

Mike Moore - - Parent

As others have said, doubles for 5c is the easiest choice.

I learned 4c in doubles and switched to signles instead once I could do about 30-50 catches of 4c doubles. Now I find singles was easier and more enjoyable (I don't have the patience to do doubles: it takes forever for the club to come down).

Terix -

Hello, I would like to ask a question) Maybe there is somebody who has similar problem or who had have similar problem and was able to solve it :D
I juggle 5 ball cascade for about 6 years and there is no progress - my record is 22 sec, but I can´t improve it for a few years already - where is the problem? Can it be that my arms are still weak?
Usually my cascade ends because of collision of balls, it becomes too wide, I am rotating around with cascade, it is too low or any other strange problem. I try to keep my elbows near body and throw it slowlier, but it becomes faster and faster usually, that is a problem too.
Please, can anyone give any advice that would help? I am quite disappointed because a lot of effort and almost no result.

Guili - - Parent

one question: how do you train for it?

I ask because since I first came to the forum I learned I was training without any method, and reading and asking to the people at the forum I got to improve the way I train, and got much better results, for sure!

What was really mind-blowing for me, is the "no-drops policy" and the pyramid training.
the no-drop policy says to Juggle only what you know you can keep in the air, if it's 5 catches, then just juggle 5 catches and collect.
combining with the pyramid:
10 times 5 catches
5 times 10 catches
2 times 20 catches
1 time 50 catches
This pyramid can be "moved up" when you manage to juggle it with little or no drops. Juggle like this every day and you will definetively see progress!
Keep it up and good luck!

Terix - - Parent

Thank you very much^^

Terix - - Parent

I forgot to answer, I usually throw and catch as much as I can, so I will try this pyramid system

Little Paul - - Parent

There are two plateaus early on in 5 balls which have easy fixes.

The first is caused by people concentrating so hard that they hold their breath (without realising it) so make sure you're breathing.

The second is caused by people concentrating so hard that they're forgetting to blink.

Eventually your body makes you do one or the other and your pattern falls apart. So take a step back from the numbers, chill out, and make sure that you're breathing and blinking.

If you're breathing/blinking ok, but are consistently rotating in the same direction, you can either follow it (and worry about correcting the rotation later) or try standing with one foot slightly in front of the other. If you're rotating to the right, put your right foot slightly further forward. If you're rotating to the left, put your left foot slightly further forward.

Terix - - Parent

Thanks a lot!)))

Mike Moore - - Parent

Hah, it's amazing how common those issues are. I had the breathing (and rotating) one with 5b and the blinking one with 7b.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi, are you getting into tensed juggling after those 20 secs, slaving to get more catches when long lost a smooth pattern with swift ado, with then arms rowing a lot? ( which then causes those problems you named )

I got over that phase, where tensions reveal, by ``hunting´´ for the easiest way, e.g. by going to early collects on slightest flaw. But mainly by this: ..

There's a difference when doing from wrist, giving thrust to get on the right height from wrist, aiming the last bit at release from wrist and fingers in a bit of a whippy way - it gives very hazardous throws at first, but one can learn to control these, learn to aim where the balls belong. ( I'm not sure, maybe how you play darts is a compare .. you don't throw with the whole arm lol, but aim and thrust from wrist and focus on where the dart should land. ) [ '.. very hazardous throws at first ..' ] .. but once you've gotten this speedy way of throwing plus aiming it well, it will help a lot for a) finding a smoother way to juggle 5b, b) getting back into that easier pattern after correcting while enduring.
  This is not about having to do wristy all the time while enduring, but about having that way of doing for fast bail out phases to get back to stable pattern without having to fight too much.

I suspect, you can keep a good pattern up for those 22 secs, but you're lacking control, when it comes to enduring, to coping with single throws going slightly astray or the whole pattern drifting.

A good approach is to check all properties of the cascade pattern in their variations: do these exercises with 3 balls ( or with 5b ) to find out, where you maybe have a major skill lacking yet: juggling.tv/16767 It's, the vid, also doing all your problems on purpose (e.g. turning the way round your patterns takes you), and also counteracting them actively (e.g. turning the other way round) to get a hold of them all. You learn to control exactly your problems, pattern's width, it rotating, its height an' all with these exercises.

Terix - - Parent

Thank you^^

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Try to expand your flexibility of dealing with your 5b cascade, it will help you to correct the errors that creep up after a few seconds. Here are the 53 tricks and moves I recommend you train:
https://youtu.be/pMVr_MZf6EM

Loisen -

Hello, I’m new here. I started juggling about 45 years ago. Never got beyond three balls. I can keep four afloat for 5 seconds at most. But, I have juggled around the world (as I travel for chemist work). I’m getting to the point in life where retirement is approaching. I could sit in a chair like a responsible adult or get back into juggling. I need some help. HELP!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Great to have more chemists here, welcome! What kind of chemistry did you do?

I think getting back into juggling is really the responsible thing to do, with all that mental and physical exertion pushing off the symptoms of aging.

Mats1 - - Parent

Get back to juggling! There are plenty of tutorials on Youtube these days to expand your trick repertoire.

Little Paul - - Parent

Retirement sounds like an idea opportunity for finding enough time to learn new skills :)

Feel free to post questions/progress here (we're mostly a friendly encouraging bunch) but there's nothing quite like meeting other jugglers in person when it comes to learning new stuff, getting tips on how to improve, and generally having a lot of fun.

So check out the Clubs and Events listings here, and find something local you can go to!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi & welcome Loisen,

do both! .. retire AND juggle as long as its fun ;o]

Mike Moore -

Fully inverted sprung cascade

The first of my endgame patterns. FINALLY got a qualify!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bjn4Je_jCCI/

Mats1 - - Parent

This is really nice. How hard is it to run for longer periods do you think? Is the jump from inverted box to this super insane, or just insane?

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oh man, SUPER insane for sure. In my opinion, inverted box is somewhere between 4.25-4.5 ball difficulty. Inverted sprung cascade is somewhere a little ~6.25 ball difficulty. Inverted sprung fountain (https://www.instagram.com/p/BiFhmhsDHVU/) is probably about 7b difficulty. I can't run fully inverted sprung cascade for long enough to give it a nice number like the others, but it's the only one among that group that I have to mentally really psych myself up for and can't follow in real-time. It's much harder than inverted sprung fountain.

Who knows, though. Maybe I went through the learning process of it poorly and other ways would knock down its difficulty considerably. And there's always the added difficulty of being the first to do it. It'll be easier to gauge its difficulty when a few more people can wrap their hands around it.

Mats1 - - Parent

I found inverted box is more like 4.75-5.0 difficulty!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Haha, amazing!

What do you mean by endgame patterns?

Mike Moore - - Parent

Thanks!

There is a pattern that I thought of at IJA 2013 that seemed so conceptually clear (but non-obvious) and disastrously difficult. ~4 years ago I realized that there would be three interesting stepping stone patterns along the way. They were all so far above my skill level at the time, and I'm still not convinced they're all doable by me, but I set the very long-term goal to run them all before retiring from juggling. I reckon I can probably make progress on them until my early-mid thirties (other parts of life permitting), so there's slight urgency.

Fully inverted sprung cascade (FISC) is the first of those four patterns! In my opinion, patterns 2 and 3 aren't as cool as FISC, but pattern 4 would be a dream. I don't want to expose the later three patterns just yet, sorry!

Mats1 - - Parent

4: I guess it's inverted 5 ball tennis. I also think you probably have at least until you're 40 to work on this stuff.

Mike Moore - - Parent

It would be nice to have until 40! Having injured myself a handful of times through juggling working on things like this, I'd be a bit surprised to make it to 40.

Can you tell me what you mean by inverted 5 ball tennis? Maybe Inverted sprung 5b cascade? (Which is not the 4th)

Mats1 - - Parent

Yes, inverted sprung 5b cascade. Do you think that's even possible at all?

And let's hope your practice can make it to 40 and beyond! It's always good to see a new trick from Mike Moore.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I think it's possible, yes. I would guess it's even possible for me, but it would be very finnicky with all that 5b in not much horizontal space. Maybe in a year or two!

My practice will probably still be happening at age 40! Just on tricks less physically demanding with handspeed.

The Void - - Parent

"I reckon I can probably make progress on them until my early-mid thirties"

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Amazing stuff Mike. It almost looks 'easy' in some kind of strange way. I can see there is almost no time to get from one throw to the next though, so it looks almost impossible too. You are truly pushing the boundaries!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Hah, I thought the same thing. Everything looks so simple, what's the problem??

Thanks!

7b_wizard -

How many juggling (or artistry, magic, object manipulation, whatever got you here) bookmarks (or: browser "favourites"), text or vid or also to software, anything "juggling", do you have?
.. and including secondary links that you keep for e.g. juggling background only or mainly ( e.g. learning theory, anatomy, history, showbizz, artistry in general, programming of juggling, etc. ).
[ no need to count, a rough estimation will do ]

  1. none.
  2. 1 to 5.
  3. about upto 15
  4. around upto 25
  5. 25 - 50
  6. 50 - 100
  7. 100 - 200
  8. MORE
  9. unclear, too fuzzily defined to tell, too much overlap (e.g. "browser\\offline", "juggling\\non-juggling\\artistry\\..", sources of any kind)


[ °wow° .. what a parentheses' mess once again lol - sry for that, but tried to make it halfway defined, un-misconceivable, able to nail, to find oneself in it, represent many ]

This is a competition thread which ran from 4th Jun 2018 to 11th Jun 2018. View results.

Mike Moore - - Parent

146 videos listed under my Youtube playlist "3b juggling ideas" alone, then many of my favourites are juggling. I also have a Mendeley account with a juggling folder for any academic articles on Juggling.

Much of what I do for fitness/nutrition are also for juggling, so I think I'll be in that MORE category!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I've just tried to count the juggling videos in my youtube playlists, and estimate them to be around 360... That's definitely the most important source of 'bookmarks'. I don't tend to save written texts on the internet after I've read them (I save them if I want to read them later), as I can nearly always find them again through google using words I remember. Finding videos again is much harder as you search using text to find moving images....

Mike Moore - - Parent

I save the academic journal articles because they're typically behind paywalls. I have access to them at the moment, but not for too much longer.

Marvin - - Parent

This competition has now ended with 8 votes cast. The results are:

  1.   none. (1 vote)
  2.   1 to 5. (1 vote)
  3.   about upto 15 (0 votes)
  4.   around upto 25 (0 votes)
  5.   25 - 50 (1 vote)
  6.   50 - 100 (1 vote)
  7.   100 - 200 (1 vote)
  8.   MORE (3 votes)
  9.   unclear, too fuzzily defined to tell, too much overlap (e.g. "browser\\offline", "juggling\\non-juggling\\artistry\\..", sources of any kind) (0 votes)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Thanks all for voting!

I said 200, maybe a bit more, but I don't think notably more.

Apart from the examples already mentionned in titlepost, I have - of course - video-links, mostly numbers, then like teaching offers' homepages (even from other sports like tennis as a compare), in several categories, like prop-shops, sewing own balls, siteswaps, records pages, scientific e.g. biokinematics e.g. perception, a mostly empty "going pro" folder with undercategories "ship, street, therapeutic, circus-school, varieté, camp-workshopping, possible sports that juggling is possible compensation or exercise for, and more such mingle-mangle.

7b_wizard -

Which tricks or exercises can you suggest to do while watching soccer World Championship?
Not sure, the question makes any sense, as it's obviously individually different, but what would you choose to do viewing peripherally only?

3b cascade is - of course - no problem (even a bit unchallenging). Tried it with 5b cascade, but still getting several drops there. Maybe inv box, but I'm not sure it's safe, but will try. Contact's Butterflies are surely an option, maybe sth horizontal with both hands ( but that could roll right across my view on the soccer game ). Not sure about 1c flourishes.

A challenge lies also in looking at the game but not awarely seeing it for being actually focussed on the periphal juggle.

Which patterns do you have experience with, looking through them like also at an audience or a passing partner or when talking to someone [can't say "chatting" anymore lol] while juggling? Are there patterns ``naturally apt´´ for it?

Little Paul - - Parent

If you’re committed to sitting on your arse staring at the tv for several hours over many weeks (instead of doing something productive) then there is only one trick.

Ball spinning.

It takes several hours of frustrating practice to learn to spin a ball, and it’s best learned when you’re thinking about something else anyway.

Little Paul - - Parent

If you want some tips about how to learn it - try this video:

https://youtu.be/o7GXdqw4aKI

7b_wizard - - Parent

"BALL SPINNING" .. OH YEAH! .. cool.
No, not "sit on my arse" but standing facing the monitor ( if that makes a difference to what you meant lol ;o)
Thanks!

7b_wizard - - Parent

( I can do it already, but not keep it up very long, not more than a few, 3-5 seconds )

Guili - - Parent

haha good question man!
I guess it mostly deppends on the match...
I mean, we argentinians usually have hard-on.the-heart matches, not suitable for cardiacs, but the jitters on a group stage match has no comparisson to a semi-final... you know what i mean?
but i did like paul's suggestion of a spinning ball.

7b_wizard - - Parent

^^hehe .. yeah! .. but the group stage can always be good for a surprise and some all-or-nothing matches .. maybe a team gets disqualified and a no-name will enter by wild card and get the title ( Denmark once won the European Championship like that haha ).

Mike Moore - - Parent

I watched How I Met Your Mother mostly to learn BBB. I can now do BBB.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Great idea, but too many levels beyond what I could do halfway dropless. Pinball Style is a strong option now that you said that, though! .. wow, I'm getting a whole sheduled agenda for this! ( I'll have to rewatch one game or other in the late night-repeats, to keep up with my plans )

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. when I had just shut my PC down after posting, I ´´saw´´ the box and 441 and related patterns and exercises (like e.g. 2b-01414) would naturally fit right around the monitor .. !? ( I could then even fit the side, a pattern goes towards, to which way left\\right, attack\\defense, the soccer match is currently going, to who's got the ball now ).
If only my behind the back catching weren't so droppy .. that would be a fun 2b exercise without having to look anyway!

Hermit Of Masada -

Hi guys, promised you more questions, so here they are! Ive been having some thoughts about the subject of fitness for jugglers.
What fitness exercises you find are the most valuable for jugglers?
Cardio makes you sharper and more energized, so thats an obvious choice.
When i juggle clubs for a long time i can feel the strain on my forearms (maybe im using to much wrist?) And its obvious to me that 5 ball endurance takes some muscle.
What do you guys think? Is fitness even that relevant, or is juggling itself the best exercise to develop the abilities needed? What do you do to keep in shape?

Sergei - - Parent

to my humble opinion, most jugglers are pretty weak guys. I reasonably doubt they can bench-press more than own weight. So my recommendations will be to have some upper-body muscles, especially pectoralis major and triceps. Bar-dips will be ideal. Reasonable standard 20 reps for guys under 50 y/o and 10 reps for grand-pa over 60 )))

7b_wizard - - Parent

Juggling is not a force act, I believe. ( "We're not juggling cannonballs, right." )
Getting the rhythm snapped-in to the point, aiming and precision, agility, speediness, speedy thinking, handspeed, wristyness are crucial.
At least for for upto 5-6-7 balls, clubs dunno, guess ~5c.
There is though, a phase when you're not mastering a challenging pattern yet, where you're liable to do tensed, to fight to even keep it up and going, .. there then, having a bit of muscle power will keep you from wearing off soon in long sessions. But that's not the clue in the first place to getting better, to seizing a patterns rhythm and ratioes well and to optimizing your movements along pattern's needs, along a perfect comfortable, nimble, smooth pattern.

In that sense, I totter and limber up, stretch, do arm-circles and -twists an' stuff to prevent soreness. My concession to strength is doing 200g balls a bit for warmup, and I think, it serves me well for 7b cascade (and 9b flashing).

( "Working out on big muscles only makes your arms heavier!" :p )

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Juggling sure isn't a force act, but it is all about endurance. What ive learned from watching 5b andurance comoetitions is that you use less streght when you have proper technique, but when you get tired your technique becomes worse and worse and you have to compensate more using muscle, which gets you even more tired and so on. It shows in ofek snir 5b record, i believe.
It goes double for clubs. 30 minutes into a club session there is no way i can get more than a flash of 4 clubs. Surely if i had better technique it wouldn't have to be so hard.
Also some muscle tone is needed to prevent and minimize injuries.
Its evident that a juggler doesn't (or even should'nt) have to be a bodybuilder to be a great juggler, but technique can only take you so far to my understanding. Same goes for strength of course.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, endurance is a point where you get into doing tensed after a while and where it's good to not have to give in to a lack of muscle power.
But I made the experience - when doing 5b endurance (for minutes only, not hours like Ofek) - that finding back into perfect swift smooth pattern will indeed find back into a relaxed pattern  ( sometimes all of a sudden, when snapping-in again out of nowhere )  that will keep on going much longer with muscles then relaxing again, as opposed to fighting yourself through such bad phases with primarily muscle power that you will soon or late have to give in to. So, to me, that's my credo, my approach to it all, the perfectly mastered pattern is the clue, and doing with muscle power only the bad but sometimes unavoidable way when the pattern is going astray, then testifying that I'm doing something wrong. It should at its best be like walking, I believe, not like powering oneself through it with more effort than absolutely necessary.

Guili - - Parent

in my opinion is really helpfull to be a little in shape. i mean, i don't go out to run, but i do stretch like 10 minutes everyday i juggle. it's important to loosen up every muscle and joint. legs, back, neck, wrists, elbows.
also as i do have kinda weak tendons, i try to reinforce them with a little of weight lifting.
every other day, after stretching, i make 10 reps of 4 different movementes. it doesn't tire me. gives me muscle, and i also take the chance to use it to stretch a little.

Sergei - - Parent

My point is that juggling mostly involves biceps, deltoids and wrist flexing muscles. Opposite important muscles are not working. Exercises for one group of muscles without working on opposites leads to negative effects in spinal motor roots. I greatly enjoy juggling lying down on my coach )) Watch David Cain setting world records in this position )) Doing bar-dips 20 reps is just minimum fitness standard. "Heavy arms" require 20 reps with at least 100 - 200 lb additional weight. It doesn't make one SLOW, watch shot-put and disc throw competiotions ))

Guili - - Parent

sorry, i don't understand what you're saying, i'm not that much into fitness.
I just use a 3kg. weight to keep my arms strog, and they didn't get any slower by this.

Maria - - Parent

I believe that I would be able to juggle 4 clubs a bit longer if I was stronger. My arms usually get tired after about 100 catches.

I don't do enough to keep in shape, and nothing that is specifically for juggling, barely a minimum to keep healthy.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yes, I believe fitness is relevant. I can easily tell the difference between when I'm fairly fit and when I've spent some time off fitness by how I feel with my juggling. I am also FAR more prone to injury if I'm not particularly fit.

I was the fittest I ever had been when I went to my first IJA and stayed high-energy through the entire fest. IJA 2013...not so much. Had to pace myself, couldn't do hard stuff all the time, it was rough.

Hermit Of Masada -

hello everyone! my name is Yonatan, and i have to admit i have already had a thread here a couple of years back about 5 ball training. I'm ashamed to admit though that the reason I'm posting now is the exact same... i took a really really long break from juggling due to leukemia (all fine now! got me some new bone marrow and I'm three years healthy) and a friend of mine who just got back from the ijc convinced me to get back into it, which I'm super excited about.
since my return to juggling a few things bothered my over analytical database-oriented brain. the first thing was that i don't know how people train. so first question, and this is fairly subjective so i know you gonna have more than a few opinions on this (though I'll be glad to know if any of you have a study on the subject):
what do you find the most efficient way for you to train? working for one specific goal the whole session (trying to get this one trick down)? getting all over the place (working your 5 balls for some time, getting tired and changing it up with some 3 ball body throws or even setting the balls aside for a bit and picking up the diabolo)? or working on similar but different tricks (4 ball shower and 5 balls both have hard tall throws, so lets do both)?
I have a notebook i keep my juggling thoughts in, so i might lay a few more on you the next time i get a chance ;).
P.S
been training 5 balls using Thom Wall's guide.. wanted to get your input on it (i can get ~25 throws of right 5551, qualified left 5551, get a flash of 5551 in my fountain and semi-consistent flash 5)

Mike Moore - - Parent

Welcome back and I'm happy to hear you're healthy!

I have a few "focus patterns" that I make sure I put some time into every session. Depending on where I am in those patterns and how things are going on that day, the amount of time for each varies from 3-~15 minutes. Then I have some secondary patterns/pattern families that I try to chip away at when I remember.

My warm up tends to be a "whatever I feel like for a little", sometimes with a focus on a certain type of movement (e.g. left-handed dots, body throw combos, etc.). When warming up for numbers, I try to incorporate patterns that are below my skill level, but unpracticed, so that I have to do lots of corrections. Corrections warm up the body very quickly!

I practically only train with balls. I don't have enough time or skill to make meaningful contributions to juggling with a diversity of props. I do play with other props some, but mostly socially and not too seriously.

Thom Wall's guide + sweat + time = 5b cascade :)

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

hi man! thanks! what do you mean you do corrections? how do you purposely get in a situation you need to correct?

Mike Moore - - Parent

I find that patterns that are unpracticed but below my general technical skill result in having to do many corrections while keeping the pattern alive. The ones I enjoy right now are some flashes of siteswaps out of a 5b reverse cascade. Balls go everywhere, but because I have a pretty solid 5b and those siteswaps are pretty easy for my in a normal cascade, I can wrangle everything back in and repeat.

And if all else fails, I listen to Chandelier by Sia. I can't help but move a bunch after seeing that amazing music video way too many times.

Orinoco - - Parent

Maddie Ziegler is awesome!!!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yeah, downright mindblowing. There are times when I see/hear something that makes me realize I had no idea how good at certain things people are. Sort of like an abrupt mental re-benchmarking Some examples:

William Lin's BJC performance way back
Maddie Ziegler's Chandelier video
When a competitive classical singer that I was teaching chemistry to sang (!!!)
Occasional research papers (the Nobel Prize one on neutrino oscillations where they had to filter out the radioactivity from THE WIRES IN THEIR ELECTRONICS comes to mind, as well as some of the framework-development ones in educational research).

Do you (or anyone else) remember those types of moments? What are some that come to mind?

The Void - - Parent

The Picture Of Dorian Grey and Vanity Fair.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'll have to move those up the reading list a bit. Thanks for the recommendations.

Have you read Thinking Fast and Slow? I'm only partially finished it but am enjoying it an awful lot! Go figure: a book that explains part of how your thought patterns work is good at influencing your thought patterns.

Orinoco - - Parent

oooh, good question... ones that immediately spring to mind.

Lars Andersen - archery

Jane Zhang doing the Diva song from the Fifth Element live with no synthesizer assistance.

https://youtu.be/kJl2uPNsJEk

Adam Winrich - whip cracking

https://youtu.be/Wzd34P5uTtU

Sean DeBurca - fingerstyle guitar, I first saw Sean perform live in Tunbridge Wells when he was I think 17 years old, I had never heard fingerstyle before.

https://youtu.be/8d_1m_hyYEM

Veronika Petrova, Inna Lymar, & Yuriy Danilchenko - skipping

https://youtu.be/UdLt70d-4kQ

Mike Moore - - Parent

Sometimes when I see something that SHOULD reframe how I see a discipline, I can feel myself rationalizing that I had obviously thought of that before, or that "of course it should be at this level". It's kind of hard to explain, but that's how I felt when I first saw Lars's archery video (and how I used to see Dave Kelly's and Chris Hodge's videos). Almost like they're doing something categorically different, and the stuff they're doing CAN'T be similar to what I've seen before.

That whip cracking video was something else!

I don't know why, but I've randomly encountered so many VERY good skippers. In high school I saw a professional skipper perform in a talent show. At Turbofest in the first few years I went (2010-~2012?) there was a really amazing skipper. In Japan, while walking the streets randomly, I came across this:

https://youtu.be/mFjU2y_CVU0

It's funny how things happen.

And the middle section of that Raw Art video was very cool!

Orinoco - - Parent

Congratulations on the health front! Facing leukemia is a far more impressive trick than a 5 ball cascade so this should be easy for you!

Don't focus too much on 5 ball like patterns. Getting a good start when you launch the pattern is really important, & launching 2 balls from one hand is different to launching 3 so make sure you practice that part.

Also try to practice a little bit more than a flash as soon as possible, even if it is just 1 more throw. With a flash it is fairly easy to compensate for errors in rhythm, during the running pattern, not so much.

If you like data & analysis ty keeping a practice log, it can draw graphs for you & everything!

Maria - - Parent

Wrong address in the "log" link, it doesn't work. :)

Orinoco - - Parent

I should know that by now!

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Thanks man! valuable input. so you say i should stick to the flashes to learn launching 5 balls?
the practice log was a major reason to come back here, though i never used it before :P

Orinoco - - Parent

I think so.

I don't think it is worthwhile breaking down base patterns (3, 5, 7 ball cascade etc) too much. The best practice for a 5 ball cascade is a 5 ball cascade. Breaking things into components only makes sense to me for combination tricks involving different skills, & for more complex patterns where you need to do different types of throw.

In a cascade every ball does the same thing, for 5+ balls the important points are rhythm, accuracy & speed. If you take out a ball for 55550 it is still possible to do the pattern without the correct timing which allows bad habits to develop.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi Hermit,

for 5 ball cascade, I warmly recommend this: http://juggling.tv/16767 with 3 balls, the idea being: if you can't do it with 3 balls, how can you expect to get it with five?! And it will be necessary to keep a 5 ball cascade up and to get it stable, that one has at least somewhat of control on most of those dimensions shown in the vid, especially 5b speed (and handspeed) and 5b height (and precision \accuracy \aiming well there), but also for correcting or for working against any drifts, twists, furthermore for controlling the front plane, then for finding your most comfortable and efficient posture, so far for what I can think of.
It's pure cascade training; this approach skips any 4b exercises, but as you seem to be getting along well with the fountain and siteswaps, all this is maybe just a minor alternative. Yet, checking it out at least briefly might find the one or other exercise that could be a precious clue for improving on 5b.

( I'm afraid my practise, though structured mostly after priorities, that i stubbornly work on, a huge ``plight´´-part, "good-fors" and only a small ``leisure´´-part, .. afraid, my practise isn't as efficient as should, so I'd rather not extend on it. )

cheers & happy juggling

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Thanks man! thats a lot of material! I always check my posture when juggling, but having a check list like this might be beneficial.

Stephen Meschke -

Mike Moore has provided some excellent source video for the Juggling Data Set. Check it out on juggling.tv:

http://juggling.tv/16844

or in the Juggling Data Set:

https://sites.google.com/view/jugglingdataset/juggling-tricks

If anyone is interested in being included in the Juggling Data Set, share some video! The Juggling Data Set helps other jugglers (and computers) learn more about juggling.

Mats1 - - Parent

The difficulties on those tricks are crazy? 771 more difficult than 6 balls? 753 more difficult than 7?! There's just absolutely no way that can be accurate.


Mike Moore - - Parent

I agree that 7b cascade is much harder than 753, despite my guess that most jugglers would be able to run 7b cascade longer. I see 771 and 6b to be similar difficulties.

Mats1 - - Parent

I think most jugglers will have practiced 7 at least 100x more than 753. If the practice was equal on each, 753 runs would be way longer.
771 maybe is as difficult as 6 ball 1/2 shower, but there's no way it is as hard as the fountain.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

These graphs show that, on average, jugglers can get more catches with 7-vs-753 and 6-vs-771. There aren't that many data points, but it looks like a trend to me. Because difficulty is subjective, I'll replace it with statistics from the Juggling Edge Records Database.

Mike Moore - - Parent

"Because difficulty is subjective, I'll replace it with statistics from the Juggling Edge Records Database."

One of my favourite take-homes from Thinking Fast and Slow is to be aware of when one answers an easier question than the one they mean to answer. The JERD gives an answer to some question, but it doesn't answer the question of relative difficulties.

Mats1 - - Parent

Sorry for this very slow reply, but I was in deepest Norfolk away from any internet or phone signal!

You cannot use number of catches as a judgement of difficulty. You must also include how much that trick is practiced. I would venture that 90%+ of people who can juggle 7 balls have spent more time practicing 7 balls than on any other pattern with less than 7 balls, for example.

Personally, I think if I had I spent the same time on 753 that I have on 7 balls, I would expect to be running it for *at least* several minutes, probably more. That is vs not even having quite reached 1 minute with 7 cascade. I've hardly practiced 753 in my life (probably a few hours or something) and already nearly got to the 100 catches milestone.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Your very slow reply has given me time to ponder the relative difficultly between these two tricks. I have increased the amount of time that I spend on 753, and I have continued to improve. Still, I find that 753 is much more difficult than 7 ball cascade.

For a little more perspective, how would you rank the difficulty of these tricks: 744, 753, 771, 77772, 777771?

Mats1 - - Parent

Easy -> Harder

744 - 753 - 771 - 77772 - 777771

And I think 777771 is easier than the 6 ball fountain.

Mike Moore - - Parent

My ranking:

744 - 771 - 77772 - 777771 ~= 753 ~= 6b fountain -------- 7b cascade

Reasoning: 3s tend to be pretty hard in siteswaps with relatively high numbers and consecutive same-height throws tend to be easier than not. That said, I don't think those factors come close to accounting for the seventh ball.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Wow! My difficulty ratings are quite different than your (and Mats1). I find base patterns (cascade and fountain in particular) to be much easier than siteswaps. I would rate the difficulty like this:

6b+ftn --> 744 --> 77772 --> 771 --> 7b+cas --> 7777771 --> 753

I also think that the step up in difficulty between these tricks is also roughly equal.

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