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Sergei -

Juggler's tennis.
Enigma for the beginner (me). My deepest gratitude to 7b_wizard who adviced to practice Shower on incline surface. I guess not very useful for the Shower, but it works perfectly well for Tennis )) I have got the feeling of the pattern in 10 minutes using beanbags and inlined list of cardboard. Any other ideas with Tennis ?

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Interesting that you find shower easier than tennis. I think its harder.
You can try siteswap 423 where the 3 are reverse, its known as real tennis. But i think you might want to learn other 423 variations first. (If 423 doesnt mean anything to you, you might want to read about siteswap)

Sergei - - Parent

I guess I am practicing 423 as "W" variation and it works well for me. Currently working on various 2 in 1 to be able to do other forms of 423

7b_wizard - - Parent

Have you seen this: http://www.libraryofjuggling.com/Tricks/3balltricks/JugglersTennis.html
The 2.nd animation with the black ball shows best how it's   normal--normal--overthrow--a.s.o.   ( overthrows in a 3-beat ) and because that overthrow is higher, it makes sense to also throw \release it from higher (else it will land too late).
Lib'O'Jugg suggests to train those overthrows in a slower tact, only once in a while from normal cascade (3.rd animation).
An overthrow is not(!), and not to be confused with an usual reverse throw that flies to and lands near the middle (or: inside), but it flies over the whole pattern to the outside of catchhand.
And, hey, why not indeed use a different ball (or Paint It Black) for those overthrows!?

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks a lot for explanations. Of course, I am using different color over-throw ball to be sure I am on the right track. I guess I have to work more on the incline cardboard to be sure my hands do the pattern without thinking. Tennis is pretty funny and nice looking trick. What a pity I began learning juggling at so old age (( I expect it will takes me twice more time to master simple routines (Cascade, RC, HS and Tennis)

7b_wizard - - Parent

twice more time .. don't underestimate, how understanding what goes on, and the flexibility of a lot of general experience and wisdom, will hopefully keep you from waisting a lot of practise time on inefficient practise ( I'm only about ten years younger and - too stubborn on 7b - still doing that wrong lol )

Sergei - - Parent

Probably I am not seriously motivated for Juggling and don't see very attractive goals. Surely I don't want to become a "great juggler" )) In my twenties I was pretty good in weight-lifting, in my forties I have got 4 DAN (grade) black belt in Shotokan karate , in my sixties I have got International Chess Master Dyploma (FIDE) in blitz chess online. It surely were very tasty goals ))) I guess I am doing "recreational juggling" and it is very useful activity for total body coordination. Some psychological rewards in form of small achievements as "I was able to do 11 catches in Shower". At this moment I am practising 2-in-1 practice and it is great to feel my clumsy hands slowly getting more and more dexterity. Probably good "recretaional juggler" (up to the Box) will be reasonable goal for me ))

Maria - - Parent

When I started juggling (at age 30), my main goals were "become good enough to impress friends and family", "juggle torches" and "learn club passing". I don't know how impressed my friends and family are (they are kind of used to me juggling by now), but I can juggle torches a little bit and I do club passing twice a week.

Now my main goal is to become a good club passer. Actually... The main goal is to have fun with friends, but for me, that involves doing lots of club passing. So I want to be a good club passer to be able to participate in all kinds of crazy passing patterns. :)

Other goals are to learn 5 balls, then 5 clubs, and doing more partner juggling/passing with the two colleagues that sometimes juggle with me at the lunch breaks.

Sergei - - Parent

Doing torches at night ... really impressive

Hermit Of Masada -

Hi guys, promised you more questions, so here they are! Ive been having some thoughts about the subject of fitness for jugglers.
What fitness exercises you find are the most valuable for jugglers?
Cardio makes you sharper and more energized, so thats an obvious choice.
When i juggle clubs for a long time i can feel the strain on my forearms (maybe im using to much wrist?) And its obvious to me that 5 ball endurance takes some muscle.
What do you guys think? Is fitness even that relevant, or is juggling itself the best exercise to develop the abilities needed? What do you do to keep in shape?

Sergei - - Parent

to my humble opinion, most jugglers are pretty weak guys. I reasonably doubt they can bench-press more than own weight. So my recommendations will be to have some upper-body muscles, especially pectoralis major and triceps. Bar-dips will be ideal. Reasonable standard 20 reps for guys under 50 y/o and 10 reps for grand-pa over 60 )))

7b_wizard - - Parent

Juggling is not a force act, I believe. ( "We're not juggling cannonballs, right." )
Getting the rhythm snapped-in to the point, aiming and precision, agility, speediness, speedy thinking, handspeed, wristyness are crucial.
At least for for upto 5-6-7 balls, clubs dunno, guess ~5c.
There is though, a phase when you're not mastering a challenging pattern yet, where you're liable to do tensed, to fight to even keep it up and going, .. there then, having a bit of muscle power will keep you from wearing off soon in long sessions. But that's not the clue in the first place to getting better, to seizing a patterns rhythm and ratioes well and to optimizing your movements along pattern's needs, along a perfect comfortable, nimble, smooth pattern.

In that sense, I totter and limber up, stretch, do arm-circles and -twists an' stuff to prevent soreness. My concession to strength is doing 200g balls a bit for warmup, and I think, it serves me well for 7b cascade (and 9b flashing).

( "Working out on big muscles only makes your arms heavier!" :p )

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Juggling sure isn't a force act, but it is all about endurance. What ive learned from watching 5b andurance comoetitions is that you use less streght when you have proper technique, but when you get tired your technique becomes worse and worse and you have to compensate more using muscle, which gets you even more tired and so on. It shows in ofek snir 5b record, i believe.
It goes double for clubs. 30 minutes into a club session there is no way i can get more than a flash of 4 clubs. Surely if i had better technique it wouldn't have to be so hard.
Also some muscle tone is needed to prevent and minimize injuries.
Its evident that a juggler doesn't (or even should'nt) have to be a bodybuilder to be a great juggler, but technique can only take you so far to my understanding. Same goes for strength of course.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, endurance is a point where you get into doing tensed after a while and where it's good to not have to give in to a lack of muscle power.
But I made the experience - when doing 5b endurance (for minutes only, not hours like Ofek) - that finding back into perfect swift smooth pattern will indeed find back into a relaxed pattern  ( sometimes all of a sudden, when snapping-in again out of nowhere )  that will keep on going much longer with muscles then relaxing again, as opposed to fighting yourself through such bad phases with primarily muscle power that you will soon or late have to give in to. So, to me, that's my credo, my approach to it all, the perfectly mastered pattern is the clue, and doing with muscle power only the bad but sometimes unavoidable way when the pattern is going astray, then testifying that I'm doing something wrong. It should at its best be like walking, I believe, not like powering oneself through it with more effort than absolutely necessary.

Guili - - Parent

in my opinion is really helpfull to be a little in shape. i mean, i don't go out to run, but i do stretch like 10 minutes everyday i juggle. it's important to loosen up every muscle and joint. legs, back, neck, wrists, elbows.
also as i do have kinda weak tendons, i try to reinforce them with a little of weight lifting.
every other day, after stretching, i make 10 reps of 4 different movementes. it doesn't tire me. gives me muscle, and i also take the chance to use it to stretch a little.

Sergei - - Parent

My point is that juggling mostly involves biceps, deltoids and wrist flexing muscles. Opposite important muscles are not working. Exercises for one group of muscles without working on opposites leads to negative effects in spinal motor roots. I greatly enjoy juggling lying down on my coach )) Watch David Cain setting world records in this position )) Doing bar-dips 20 reps is just minimum fitness standard. "Heavy arms" require 20 reps with at least 100 - 200 lb additional weight. It doesn't make one SLOW, watch shot-put and disc throw competiotions ))

Guili - - Parent

sorry, i don't understand what you're saying, i'm not that much into fitness.
I just use a 3kg. weight to keep my arms strog, and they didn't get any slower by this.

Maria - - Parent

I believe that I would be able to juggle 4 clubs a bit longer if I was stronger. My arms usually get tired after about 100 catches.

I don't do enough to keep in shape, and nothing that is specifically for juggling, barely a minimum to keep healthy.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yes, I believe fitness is relevant. I can easily tell the difference between when I'm fairly fit and when I've spent some time off fitness by how I feel with my juggling. I am also FAR more prone to injury if I'm not particularly fit.

I was the fittest I ever had been when I went to my first IJA and stayed high-energy through the entire fest. IJA 2013...not so much. Had to pace myself, couldn't do hard stuff all the time, it was rough.

Sergei -

3 ball Shower for old mentally retarded beginner. Just made 10 catches dominant hand Shower. It was pure luck. Left hand only preliminary exercise - two throws left hand + right hand pass and total mess. Any ideas how to learn and improve Shower ? as I understand it is probably intermediate level trick.

The Void - - Parent

Think of it as
Throw,
Throw & zip,
Throw & zip,
Throw & zip,
etc.
Also, try to hold the zipping hand a little higher than the throwing hand. It's easier to zip/pass the ball slightly *downwards* than straight across or upwards.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks for advice. Is it possible to make it geometrically more like a correct CIRCLE ?

The Void - - Parent

Personally, I think of it as an isoceles triangle. If you want to be more circular, hold your hands further apart. But that will make the zips more difficult. Experiment!

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Nice and solid two ball version before you progress to three. Keep the two throws (zip throw and up throw) roughly the same distance ie *don't pass the 'zipped' ball* - throw it horizontally with some force. Keep your hands apart and as still as possible (then the next pattern (box) will be much easier.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks for your advice. Yes, I am already looking forward for Box and already practice 2 ball exercise for the Box. My humble guess it is also good for Shower

7b_wizard - - Parent

There is also the "half-shower" (with 3 balls): ___ you throw only outside throws with one hand on its side (rather with stronghand), and only inside throws with the other hand on the other side. The siteswap for that is then not 51, but ``regular´´ 3. The outside throws a bit higher and the inside throws a bit lower, then ( for the higher balls to pass well over the top and not get any collisions ). Then looks a bit more like a half-circle too, but essentially feels notably slower.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. it's a bit like juggler's tennis, but all tennis throws, every second throw, and only those, now to the same side. ( like a tennis-ball-feeding-machine. if you want. :o| )

Sergei - - Parent

You can not even imagine how I love Half-Shower !
Worked very seriously on this pattern, but it was non-reciprocal love ))) So I shifted to preliminary exercises for full Shower, more difficult pattern, with hope that new skills will be useful for my beloved HS ))) Funny that I possibly will learn Shower BEFORE HS )))

Monte - - Parent

I learned shower before cascade, I also do 4 clubs in singles and never learned it in doubles. Not sure if it matters what order you learn things at first. Just enjoy your progression.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I think some order, at first, is important. Better to learn cascade first. It's easier so more likely not give up. Shower should be learned in both directions. Shower and cascade are quite different motor skills. The half shower is a kind of lazy shower (sometimes called lazy shower I think). It caused me bad habits and the real shower and box were more difficult than they needed to be.

Sergei - - Parent

tried half-shower today after abstaining for a week and attempts to learn full shower. I feel HS goes better now. My humble goal is to have stable 10 cycles HS (20 catches?) both hands. It is really nice pattern ))

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Slightly off topic - I remember you mentioning you were practicing the reverse cascade. Have you tried the RC with arms crossed? Keep them crossed, left hand doing the job of the right hand, right hand doing the job of the left. If you can juggle RC it's much easier than you think and it looks far more difficult than it is. Just takes a little while for your brain to realise it's the same as RC but the hands are swapped position and then it 'clicks'.

Sergei - - Parent

yes, reverse cascade for me is more easy than normal cascade )) but to do it crossed arms ??? I am not sure I am ready for this witchcraft )))

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

There's a momentary 'crosswires' in your brain when you first try but very quickly you can do it, if you can already do RC. Just jump straight in with three balls. Try to do three throws first. Your brain will make sense of it quickly. It's a good 'quick fix' when you're learning things that might take a little longer.. like shower/s and box.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks. I guess I ought to try it just to make some middle level brain injury )) need to look for step by step tutorial on Net

Sergei - - Parent

Just created exercise # 1 for crossed arm cascade : arms crossed with 2 balls in one hand tossing "one-two" into the empty hand/ Hope it is not idiotic idea ))

Sergei -

Just want to thank all who helped me with reverse cascade/ I was working on half-shower with very little success and suddenly felt I can toss from outside both hands relativey easy. Sent the video to Martin Frost and David Cain. Both confirmed it is reverse cascade. Pretty ugly to my humble opinion )) I guess I have all chances to meet my 90 years celebration with 5 ball cascade )) Please, accept my deep gratitude

bad1dobby - - Parent

Happy to help. Anyone learning to juggle at 67, especially with your level of enthusiasm, gets maximum respect from me!

Sergei -

sorry, how to attach video with juggling ?

Orinoco - - Parent

Just post the URL of the video is, if it's on JTV, Youtube or Vimeo the Edge will do the embedding for you for those that want it.

Sergei -

Tennis 3 balls. I guess you all know this simple trick. Can you be so kind to share some of your personal ideas how to learn tennis? Funny, that most valuable idea how to learn half-shower I have got from youtube kid age about 7-8 who was droping balls constantly ))) It was drill with two balls.

david - - Parent

OK, from a cascade, throw one ball over the top, over the incoming ball. Go back to the cascade for a while and then throw one over the top from the other hand, the one opposite the one you tried first. Go back to the cascade and repeat until you are comfortable with either hand. Finally throw one over the top and throw the next one from the other hand, which is the one you just caught, back over the top, and then back to the cascade. Notice that there are two other throws after the first over the top and the return. When this is comfortable extend the series back and forth over the top. Every third throw is over the top.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks for your explanations. I guess the drill for tennis can be "one-two cascade + three over the top" and pause. Then go the opposite way. Looks like "flash" for tennis.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I think, I do the tennis-throws from higher and also catch them higher to rethrow from that height. So that the tennis-ball doesn't ever interfere with the normal (hopefully automized in your case) rest of the pattern.

Another approach is to reduce the dwelltime for the tennis ball and -throws: you do only that throw with a faster throwing movement (like hot potatoe or glowing coal) and also a good bit higher - it will then fly higher in the same time and stay well in beat and rhythm.

( I'm not all sure, all this is right, cos all three dimensions, the time, the length of the flightpath, and the dwelltime (and thrust for the height) are involved in nonlinear complex way here. )

Sergei - - Parent

Yes, I notice the height of tennis throw and I think some disruption of tempo is just cute pecularity of this pattern.Thanks

7b_wizard - - Parent

Are you still doing 3b cascade a lot too, or only your new tricks now?

bad1dobby - - Parent

The key to half-shower is very similar to the key to reverse-cascade: focus on getting the low throw right, dropping just inside the resting hand position. It's very natural to think the over-the-top is the important throw, but you will progress faster if you focus your attention on getting the low throws right.

Tennis is a constantly reversing half-shower, so my best suggestion would be to work on half-shower in each direction (which will also be good for balancing your hands). After that, tennis should come easily.

At the stage you are at, Sergei, there is enormous temptation to rush to the next trick. Of course there is, it's the joy of learning new tricks that is so addictive in juggling! Nothing wrong with that. However, it's worth disciplining yourself to work on tricks in both directions. Learning both directions/hands can seem like wasted time when you're impatient to try the next trick, but training up your weak side now will truly pay off as you move to more difficult skills later.

Sergei - - Parent

AMEN)) I was thinking about changing general approach to juggling from my current sport orientation to MEDICAL ("every trick is just new useful exercise to improve my age-deteriorating coordination") )))) I surely like your idea of combining half-shower exercise with tennis. I already can "flesh" half-shower from right hand and need to work on life hand.

Sergei -

What does it mean "flash" and "qualify" in case of 4 balls sync collumns. I know that in case of 3 b cascade it is 3 and 6 catches. How to count in case of 4 b collumns as each catching act consist of TWO balls ?

Guili - - Parent

hello sergei. according to wikipedia a flash is a form of numbers juggling where each ball is only thrown and caught once
so each hand will toss both balls, catch them and that's it :)
here an animated gif made by my great friend "palito" (sticky in english)

https://www.facebook.com/guili.pesoa/videos/10156156813329594/

Sergei - - Parent

Sorry, this link is not working for me. May be I need some "sesame" word ))

Sergei - - Parent

I have visited your page and saw your juggling balls ))

Guili - - Parent

hi sergei! too bad.. it was just an animated gif made in jugglinglab, you know it?
it's a juggling emulator. shows you any pattern. it's really usefull.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks, I have got it correctly, but it is the TRICK "flash"/ I mean different issue

Guili - - Parent

try now, i think it was not in "public" post

Guili - - Parent

or it is a juggling trick where every prop is simultaneously in the air and both hands are empty
like this:

https://www.facebook.com/guili.pesoa/videos/10156156903389594/

Maria - - Parent

What you call one "catching act" is still 2 catches.

So a flash, 4 catches, so each ball has ben thrown and caught once, even if you do two balls at a time (like in sync patterns).

A qualify for 4 balls is 8 catches, each ball thrown and caught twice.

Guili - - Parent

ah, so when you're juggling sync patterns, a flash is like that?
(didn't get we were talking about sync patterns before)

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks, Maria, I got the point. At least I can flash 4 balls column. Two simultaneous throws and two catches of 2 balls. I warms my ambitions that I can juggle 4 balls in this humble pattern )) Next step is to qualify this pattern ))

Sergei - - Parent

As I understand you live in Sweden where my sister lives for more than 20 years (Uppsala)

Maria - - Parent

Yes, I live in Sweden, not too far away from Uppsala either. I juggle in Stockholm, though.

Sergei -

Hard way learning reverse cascade
While learning reverse I still put each next toss higher and higher and after 3-4 throws everything falls apart. Today I tried the 1st ball throw much higher and at the same side which made no sense in throwing second ball higher than the first ))) somehow fooled myself. Got 20 catches. What do you, guys, think about this approach ?

bad1dobby - - Parent

The key to learning reverse cascade is to think about throwing into the middle, rather than to the other hand. Think about the point between the hands, and aim each throw to drop into that space. Escalating higher and higher throws usually come because you are throwing to the other hand, and you need to throw 'over' the incoming throw. Good luck!

bad1dobby - - Parent

Just to clarify, the balls shouldn't actually be dropping down on the centre line, because that would require too much hand movement for the catch. You want them to drop about midway between the centre line and the hand's rest position. However, it's useful to think in terms of dropping them into the 'gap' rather than into the hand. Hope this helps.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks a lot for this idea (throwing into the center) It really helps to understand the dynamics

Monte - - Parent

You know, it's nice to hear all this enthusiasm for juggling. Takes me back to when I was excited about new tricks. I might even drive into Norwich for Matt's workshop tomorrow night,if it's still going.
Thanks, from a cynical old has been.

Sergei - - Parent

"Cynical old" )))) I guess I am older than anyone here (67). But still very motivated to learn new skills. In year 2016 made "International Chess Master" online blitz FIDE, last year learned Italian to B2 level according european standards, started learning juggling December 2017 )))

Sergei -

What is normal progress for beginner juggler?
How long it takes to reach and what it means "stable cascade"? What about other tricks?

Guili - - Parent

well... i guess it deppends on many factors...
mainly, the time and effort one puts on it, right?
another factor is your body and mind, i mean, it is clear to me that each one of us can be good at some things, not so much at others. for example your body and mind could be more capable for juggling than rock-climbing.
the point is to find something you like doing, and just keep doing it until you get it.
the time it takes you, only you can tell. there is no "normal" people, we're all different.
also the context, are you juggling alone? is somebody teaching you?
for example it took me a few years (teaching myself, not doing it everyday, or even everyweek) to master 4 balls, but my wife got it in like a month with my help... i don't think that means she's better that me... each one of us is walking his path.
so i guess my advice is allways compare yourself to yourself, never to others.
enjoy the progress, don't get anxious to get to the goal.
it's a brave thing you're doing. starting with this world at 67 y.o., so my respects to you!

ah, and i guess 60 catches could qualify as stable, right?
but it's endless... i mean, after getting the 60, you will want to make 100, and so on...

Sergei - - Parent

My record is 80 catches, but next time balls falls after 10-12 throws (((

Orinoco - - Parent

Never worry about how long it takes to learn a pattern. Just enjoy the process!

Little Paul - - Parent

Juggling is a journey, not a destination. Nothing wrong with enjoying the scenery!

7b_wizard - - Parent

"Stable", I'd say, for a pattern is when the pattern is well-timed (right handmovements in time, comfortable tact) and well-spaced (comfortable equal spaces between all balls, good geometry), well-aligned (no great spread, balls follow one another well, follow their flightlines well).
You can get a "stable cascade" sometimes, but still not always, still doing tensed and with arms rowing a lot (e.g. when doing a nice, but too big huge pattern), and still getting drops and fails also a lot. So, getting a "stable pattern" isn't yet the best you can get.
"Stable juggling", I'd say, means you get stable patterns a lot and have less to no drops; I guess, it also then means more control.

Other words (and notions) to describe how well a pattern (itself) runs or how the ado of juggling it goes (judging also posture, hand- and bodymovement), are "kept up [for #n rounds or catches]", "fluent", "flowy", "floaty", "snapped-in", "running", "rolling", (whatever these might distinctly mean) .. maybe "poised" (but that sounds point-of-view, like "nice" or "superb" or so), .. then, rather unprecise, I find, expressions like "getting it down" or "owning" a pattern; maybe these can mean, you can show the pattern anytime a few rounds, or else it could mean, you can do it in your sleep.

Higher levels, I'd say, would be when it is not a challenge anymore to do without drops, when hands seem to ``do all by themselves´´, when you're getting better at correcting outbreakers back to pattern (easily) with fast precise correction throws, or even when you can bail out a completely rotten pattern back to stable. When you can move, sit down, bend, turn, jogg with the pattern, do it on bycicle. When it's well in rhythm, when the whole ado (You + balls + your handmovement + the whole pattern + your brainwork + your automatisms + your mindset) feels like One.

I like (to go for) control over the pattern, full control.

How long it takes to learn depends on how much you stay aware that there's always more to still learn that you know nothing about yet, thus not getting stuck on a level where you think you got it, but don't get any better and don't understand why.
Always reckon for the unknown.

Other tricks give a compare to how juggling is more than getting the cascade down - they define the cascade and its skills as what it is among what else there also is.

Sergei -

Juggling in laying down position. May be somebody practicing it and what are the benefits ? I know David Cain loves to set new records this way ))

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Sakari Mannisto did a lot of research on juggling laying down. There are a lot of arm positions possible while laying down, a lot of leg throws one can do. His enjoyment of laying down juggling inspired this scene in Clowns and Queens:

https://youtu.be/JOO1GSuydBg

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