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Stephen Meschke -

GDPR and Juggling. Is recording a juggler without consent prohibited?

When the weather is nice, I love training outside. Occasionally, other park-goers will ask to record video of me for social media. I always give consent and then hit one of the quick tricks that I train for this specific scenario. This makes me feel good because it shows that juggling is interesting enough to record and share. I have been paid up to $5 as well!

I am 100% certain (but have no proof) that people record me without asking for my consent. This doesn't bother or intimidate me, but I can sympathize with other jugglers who are find this behavior intrusive and distracting. In the USA it is legal to record someone and then post that content online without their permission.

NPR reported that the GDPR, "forbids people from posting anyone's picture online without their permission." After hearing the news story, I am left with these questions:

  • Does the GDPR affect the legality of recording a juggler in public without their consent?
  • If a juggler finds images or videos taken and posted online without permission, what can be to get the content removed?
  • If filming a juggling video, it is necessary to obtain permission from people in the background before posting the video online?

Guili - - Parent

I've been recorded juggling many times, some of them without my consent... and it never bothered me. but i do think some people may feel it's not right. either for privacy, or for like trademark issues... you know. if someone records your show, you won't be able to sell a dvd later, some like that...
so, out of respect, yes, i think consent must be asked.

Javitxuzo -

Hi people!
I'm new in this forum. I'm Javi a spanish juggler & uniciclyst and I have recently moved to San Francisco.
Currently I'm trying to juggling with 5 clubs but is being very difficult, any tip would be appreciated.

See you in the forum

(Sorry for my english :P )

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi there, Javi!

Guili - - Parent

bienvenido javi!
ya somo varios de habla hispana en el foro :)
un saludo desde argentina!

Hermit Of Masada -

Hi guys, promised you more questions, so here they are! Ive been having some thoughts about the subject of fitness for jugglers.
What fitness exercises you find are the most valuable for jugglers?
Cardio makes you sharper and more energized, so thats an obvious choice.
When i juggle clubs for a long time i can feel the strain on my forearms (maybe im using to much wrist?) And its obvious to me that 5 ball endurance takes some muscle.
What do you guys think? Is fitness even that relevant, or is juggling itself the best exercise to develop the abilities needed? What do you do to keep in shape?

Sergei - - Parent

to my humble opinion, most jugglers are pretty weak guys. I reasonably doubt they can bench-press more than own weight. So my recommendations will be to have some upper-body muscles, especially pectoralis major and triceps. Bar-dips will be ideal. Reasonable standard 20 reps for guys under 50 y/o and 10 reps for grand-pa over 60 )))

7b_wizard - - Parent

Juggling is not a force act, I believe. ( "We're not juggling cannonballs, right." )
Getting the rhythm snapped-in to the point, aiming and precision, agility, speediness, speedy thinking, handspeed, wristyness are crucial.
At least for for upto 5-6-7 balls, clubs dunno, guess ~5c.
There is though, a phase when you're not mastering a challenging pattern yet, where you're liable to do tensed, to fight to even keep it up and going, .. there then, having a bit of muscle power will keep you from wearing off soon in long sessions. But that's not the clue in the first place to getting better, to seizing a patterns rhythm and ratioes well and to optimizing your movements along pattern's needs, along a perfect comfortable, nimble, smooth pattern.

In that sense, I totter and limber up, stretch, do arm-circles and -twists an' stuff to prevent soreness. My concession to strength is doing 200g balls a bit for warmup, and I think, it serves me well for 7b cascade (and 9b flashing).

( "Working out on big muscles only makes your arms heavier!" :p )

Hermit Of Masada - - Parent

Juggling sure isn't a force act, but it is all about endurance. What ive learned from watching 5b andurance comoetitions is that you use less streght when you have proper technique, but when you get tired your technique becomes worse and worse and you have to compensate more using muscle, which gets you even more tired and so on. It shows in ofek snir 5b record, i believe.
It goes double for clubs. 30 minutes into a club session there is no way i can get more than a flash of 4 clubs. Surely if i had better technique it wouldn't have to be so hard.
Also some muscle tone is needed to prevent and minimize injuries.
Its evident that a juggler doesn't (or even should'nt) have to be a bodybuilder to be a great juggler, but technique can only take you so far to my understanding. Same goes for strength of course.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, endurance is a point where you get into doing tensed after a while and where it's good to not have to give in to a lack of muscle power.
But I made the experience - when doing 5b endurance (for minutes only, not hours like Ofek) - that finding back into perfect swift smooth pattern will indeed find back into a relaxed pattern  ( sometimes all of a sudden, when snapping-in again out of nowhere )  that will keep on going much longer with muscles then relaxing again, as opposed to fighting yourself through such bad phases with primarily muscle power that you will soon or late have to give in to. So, to me, that's my credo, my approach to it all, the perfectly mastered pattern is the clue, and doing with muscle power only the bad but sometimes unavoidable way when the pattern is going astray, then testifying that I'm doing something wrong. It should at its best be like walking, I believe, not like powering oneself through it with more effort than absolutely necessary.

Guili - - Parent

in my opinion is really helpfull to be a little in shape. i mean, i don't go out to run, but i do stretch like 10 minutes everyday i juggle. it's important to loosen up every muscle and joint. legs, back, neck, wrists, elbows.
also as i do have kinda weak tendons, i try to reinforce them with a little of weight lifting.
every other day, after stretching, i make 10 reps of 4 different movementes. it doesn't tire me. gives me muscle, and i also take the chance to use it to stretch a little.

Sergei - - Parent

My point is that juggling mostly involves biceps, deltoids and wrist flexing muscles. Opposite important muscles are not working. Exercises for one group of muscles without working on opposites leads to negative effects in spinal motor roots. I greatly enjoy juggling lying down on my coach )) Watch David Cain setting world records in this position )) Doing bar-dips 20 reps is just minimum fitness standard. "Heavy arms" require 20 reps with at least 100 - 200 lb additional weight. It doesn't make one SLOW, watch shot-put and disc throw competiotions ))

Guili - - Parent

sorry, i don't understand what you're saying, i'm not that much into fitness.
I just use a 3kg. weight to keep my arms strog, and they didn't get any slower by this.

Maria - - Parent

I believe that I would be able to juggle 4 clubs a bit longer if I was stronger. My arms usually get tired after about 100 catches.

I don't do enough to keep in shape, and nothing that is specifically for juggling, barely a minimum to keep healthy.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yes, I believe fitness is relevant. I can easily tell the difference between when I'm fairly fit and when I've spent some time off fitness by how I feel with my juggling. I am also FAR more prone to injury if I'm not particularly fit.

I was the fittest I ever had been when I went to my first IJA and stayed high-energy through the entire fest. IJA 2013...not so much. Had to pace myself, couldn't do hard stuff all the time, it was rough.

Stephen Meschke -

Juggling Club Drop Simulation

Using this Pygame tutorial, I created a club drop simulation. In the simulation, I successfully dropped and balanced a club several times:

(1) https://imgur.com/a/akWywIS
(2) https://imgur.com/a/7nW4C44
(3) https://imgur.com/a/ddeR2YP


There are an infinite amount of ways to drop a club and have it bounce back up and balance on it's end. A club is most likely to bounce back up into a balance if it has enough energy to rotate backwards (1) 180° or forwards 180° (2).

Guili - - Parent

cool!
any chance of actually doing it?
would look really good!

peterbone - - Parent

Here's one recent example.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BiHWQunAXAx

Guili - - Parent

wow! that's awesome!
haha, not on purpose anyway.. haha but it counts

Maria - - Parent

It happened to me once, too. Dropped while juggling 4 clubs, reached for a club that bounced but noticed that it was almost standing still on the end, waited and it stayed there. I have no proof, though, I was the only one who saw it.

Guili - - Parent

so.. it's doable... I mean, it can be trained.. right?
would look soooo good to do it while juggling

Maria - - Parent

I don't know, I have never heard of anyone being able to do it on purpose. I mean, with a reasonable success rate. I have heard of people trying for hours without getting it though... On the other hand, it might be that nobody actually tried to learn it. Maybe Stephen's simulations says something about how well mathched the clubs speed, rotation and angle while hitting the floor has to be for it to work. My guess would be that it's too many parameters that has to be just right. Also, what kind of floor you are standing on might affect the bounce...

peterbone - - Parent

I've seen people at the BJC sitting in a circle trying to bounce the club into a balance on the floor. At least some of them got it. I've seen at least one video, but can't find it now.

The Void - - Parent

How about during a performance?
http://juggling.tv/6228

Little Paul - - Parent

*squints*

Blimey, internet video has come a long way in the last 10 years

Guili - - Parent

precisely my point!
once I saw a documentary about varietes in the US in the 50's. it showed this guy, a "hat, kane & cigar juggler" (don't know any better way to put it) he said that everything is trainable. and he actually got a number where he threw a matchbox, with a match and a cigar on it, from his foot, in the air the match lights itself against the box, and he catches the cigar in his mouth and the match falls on balance on the tip of the cigar, and then he actually lights up the cigar and smokes!!
so... yeah.. with enough time to spend, you can probably get an acceptable succes rate, but... how's the balance between the hours of practice and the reward? (says the guy who's been obsessing with the 7 balls for the past 3 months... :) )

Guili -

yeah! I did it!

(not that anyone matters... or has to.. haha.. just needed to post it :) )

this video links have two short clips of my biggest achievements in number juggling.

6b-flash

http://juggling.tv/16827

7b 7-catch run

http://juggling.tv/16828


now attempting to qualify the both, some videos soon :-]
thanks to 7b_wizard, dani simu, and others, for the advice and support!
(feel like I'm not juggling alone anymore)

Roger Bananas - - Parent

Hey congratulations on both feats! You'll get far, keep working on them :D

I recently joined the edge too in hopes of always feeling connected to a juggling circle. I have been backpacking for the last 4.5months and I have definitely missed it on some occasions. Conventions are just around the corner but joining this site was long overdue, we got each other's backs ;)

Guili - - Parent

thanks man! so cool!
and throw a line if your backpacking takes you to patagonia, would be nice to have people to juggle with!

Roger Bananas - - Parent

Definitely! I just landed to Madrid a few minutes ago and for the upcoming months it's probably be mainland Europe all the way until EJC. After that anything can happen!

The Void - - Parent

Congrats man.
Looks like there’s a problem with the thumbnails images on JTV. I’ll try to fix them when I’m at my computer later today. Cheers.

Guili - - Parent

thanks!

(yeah, i pressed the thing several times, but didn't make any images.)

The Void - - Parent

Force-refresh, and they'll be there. Your video files seem to be 480high x 640wide, but with an orientation tag to play vertically. Which means our encoder coped, but our thumbnail generator didn't. (Better than it used to be - we'd've encoded your video sideways previously. :-) ). Still, room for improvement on our thumbing, obviously. Cheers.

7b_wizard - - Parent

S's's'trongggg!   ;o)

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. and I'm burning to give new advice, now that you're getting many rethrows:
your posture, handspeed, wristyness, and arms not rowing a lot with little to no shoulders involved looks very good to me. Just, pattern's top looks very messy, so, ..

  • once all balls are up, feed pattern's top, no matter what ! And try to focus on the upper balls and orient on those,
  • keep gettin' a hold of front plane and high aiming and outbreakers with 5b varied high, wide and walk and turn with it, ( a little bit can be enough to remember those dimensions available to you )
  • .. but don't only haste, exhaust, power, but also try slaving to the good, snapped-in smooth rhythm(!) whenever you get it, casually doing a tiny bit ``higher, than you think in the same tact´´.

.. ( I hope, that's all correct ) take it or leave it haha! :o]

Guili - - Parent

thanks man! gonna keep that in mind!

Guili -

hi there fellow jugglers!
I've been training 7b for the last few months. I feel currently at the edge of pulling it off. and I was wondering how long it took other people to get it.
so here, my first poll. hope i make it right...

How long it took you to qualify 7 balls?


  1. a few months

  2. a year

  3. a few years

This is a competition thread which ran from 6th Mar 2018 to 13th Mar 2018. View results.

Mike Moore - - Parent

From what reference?

From when I started juggling? From when I started trying 7b?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Qualifying 7 balls usually takes me about 4.5 seconds..

Guili - - Parent

yeah, i guess i mean time you spent really focused on it.
I've been training allmost exclusevely for 7b this last 2 months, maybe I tried throwing 7 before, but never like this time.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Combining an old FB video and JE data...

My first flash: April 21, 2009. I had been working on it hard since the beginning of that month, and less hard since the beginning of the ~year

My first (maybe?) qualify: Aug 26th, 2009. At least, that's when I have 15 catches logged on the JE records page.

I guess I'll vote for a few months then! I recall that was a pretty juggly summer.

7b_wizard - - Parent

 Undecided between 2. and 3. I wasn't juggling regularly at the time, only when the weather was nice in summers and not even always then.
 I remember endlessly going for a whole launch \flash, then later being round a few rethrows like upto 11 for a long time, and again a long time to to get all balls not only rethrown once but also caught. I think, 3. comes closest.
 I haven't been as fast a learner, as I always thought I were, but being wrong on that kept me going enthusiastically :o) and now I'm looking foreward to knockin' on worldclass'sses door by doing a 7b all up 180° prospectively in a few decades only, you know.

Guili - - Parent

you'll get it! eventually... :)

James Hennigan - - Parent

The gap between my first 7b flash and my first 7b qualify was almost a year (305 days). I wasn't working on it at the time though. All of my attention was on my 6 ball patterns.

Solander - - Parent

I never was that interested in learning 7 balls. I had this idea that I wanted to master a number before going to the next. Mastering, for me, was 500 catches, and I'm not there with 6 yet. :P After a few years I tried flash 7 and got it within not that many tries on a train station, I remember. :P Now I have just below 200 catches with 7 but the qualify took be a few years, I think, since I didn't practice it that much. :)

Marvin - - Parent

This competition has now ended with 10 votes cast. The results are:

  1.   a few months (4 votes)
  2.   a year (1 vote)
  3.   a few years (5 votes)

Real_Ego_87 -

Hello. I am normally not that extremely creative a guy, but last night I appear to have stumbled randomly into your beautiful webforum in a moment of temporary sleep deprivation hysteria. I read part of one thread and quite enjoyed it. You really have an interesting culture here. As it turns out that thread was a couple of years old, which I failed to notice at the time. Therefore the comment I had planned to post there is slightly too irrelevant for my taste especially since I am unfamiliar with the rules here. Instead I will post this short introduction of myself, assuming this is an appropriate place for it. I am a 30 year old hobby musician with far too much time to spare. A small portion of that time I have come to spend juggling, over the last few years. Actually I tried it one summer, learned to juggle three tennis balls in a ridiculous fashion, and then gave up. Then I came back years later, just in the last couple of months.

The reason for my giving up was, in case anyone is interested, that I did not realize you could not juggle 4 balls crossing in a continuous and regular cascade, very little of which terminology I had at that time, and so in confusion and frustration I lost interest.

I have since learned that it is possible to juggle a 4 ball cascade in a 5 ball pattern, which is what I've been doing lately. Upon reading a thread from this forum, from which I learned nothing immediately useful that I can point to, but which I found inexplicably inspiring just in its personality, I went immediately to juggle in the small hours, and performed multiple 4 ball crossing cascade flashes in a row, having only been able to do at most one in a row until that point. For this moment of focus and the joy it caused me I thank you all in excessive formality, and please have a nice day.

Maria - - Parent

Welcome to the Edge, and may your juggling bring you many more moments of joy!

I also learned to juggle 3 balls many years ago, then gave up, in my case trying to learn 3 clubs. Seven years ago I picked it up again. I went to my first juggling convention a few months later and have been hooked since then. The juggling community is a very important part of the hobby for me, so I am happy that you found us here and hope that you will find your way to a juggling convention soon.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Nice post, thanks for sharing your juggling story! I did not realize you could not juggle 4 balls crossing in a continuous and regular cascade .. yeah, that happened to me too, didn't notice that gap that necessarily will appear then, while it's obvious when you divide balls by hands that handle them (which in turn doesn't make sense for uneven ball numbers 3 balls/2 hands = 1.5, then what). Adding a fifth ball then actually made it easier.

Guess, you did 3 balls to music in a beat? There's some rhythm & music to be found in juggling if one wants to look at it that way.

cheers so far, and, yeah, like Maria: more moments of joy! :o)

Mike Moore - - Parent

Wonderful introduction, happy to have you here. I think you'll find the rules here far fewer than expected, with the culture guiding matters far more.

Real_Ego_87 - - Parent

Thanks for your welcomes. I think I will lurk for a while.

Guili - - Parent

hi there! welcome to the egde!
just like you, i had some troubles and doubts in my begginings. i guess that's just part of being self-taught...
In this forum I found the source of knowledge and encouragement i was looking for since i first started juggling.
any doubts, just ask. the guys, and gals, of the edge will help.

also, i suggest you start writing down your practice sessions in the LOG, it's so usefull and motivating!

(too much of a saler's speach? what can i tell..? i just love this site! ;) )

Sergei -

What does it mean "flash" and "qualify" in case of 4 balls sync collumns. I know that in case of 3 b cascade it is 3 and 6 catches. How to count in case of 4 b collumns as each catching act consist of TWO balls ?

Guili - - Parent

hello sergei. according to wikipedia a flash is a form of numbers juggling where each ball is only thrown and caught once
so each hand will toss both balls, catch them and that's it :)
here an animated gif made by my great friend "palito" (sticky in english)

https://www.facebook.com/guili.pesoa/videos/10156156813329594/

Sergei - - Parent

Sorry, this link is not working for me. May be I need some "sesame" word ))

Sergei - - Parent

I have visited your page and saw your juggling balls ))

Guili - - Parent

hi sergei! too bad.. it was just an animated gif made in jugglinglab, you know it?
it's a juggling emulator. shows you any pattern. it's really usefull.

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks, I have got it correctly, but it is the TRICK "flash"/ I mean different issue

Guili - - Parent

try now, i think it was not in "public" post

Guili - - Parent

or it is a juggling trick where every prop is simultaneously in the air and both hands are empty
like this:

https://www.facebook.com/guili.pesoa/videos/10156156903389594/

Maria - - Parent

What you call one "catching act" is still 2 catches.

So a flash, 4 catches, so each ball has ben thrown and caught once, even if you do two balls at a time (like in sync patterns).

A qualify for 4 balls is 8 catches, each ball thrown and caught twice.

Guili - - Parent

ah, so when you're juggling sync patterns, a flash is like that?
(didn't get we were talking about sync patterns before)

Sergei - - Parent

Thanks, Maria, I got the point. At least I can flash 4 balls column. Two simultaneous throws and two catches of 2 balls. I warms my ambitions that I can juggle 4 balls in this humble pattern )) Next step is to qualify this pattern ))

Sergei - - Parent

As I understand you live in Sweden where my sister lives for more than 20 years (Uppsala)

Maria - - Parent

Yes, I live in Sweden, not too far away from Uppsala either. I juggle in Stockholm, though.

7b_wizard -

Do you juggle more than you walk?

  1. Yes.
  2. No.
  3. Not sure.

This is a competition thread which ran from 17th Feb 2018 to 25th Feb 2018. View results.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Kneejerk reaction: of course not!

But now that I'm thinking about it...I'm not so sure. If we exclude walks under a couple minutes, then it's very close.

Maria - - Parent

Same... If I count every step as walking, I definitely walk more than I juggle (especially since it is not uncommon to walk while juggling, too).

If I only count outdoor walking it might actually be less than the juggling, even though I walk to work every day. Or maybe about the same amount of time.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes - meant walking several steps at least, so also walking around to pick up dropped balls, just as much as walking out of the house anyway. But not tripping single steps to correct one's positon while juggling, and also not taking one-two steps towards a dropped ball to pick it up while already bending down, but just really normally walking upright.

Basically, if one sits or drives a lot and doesn't usually need to walk a lot, AND-OR gets long runs a lot while juggling, not walking around a lot while practising, but rather mostly standing, then there's a great chance that they'd juggle more than they walk.

Maria - - Parent

Does walking while juggling count as both walking and juggling? (For example passing patterns where you are walking... I do those a lot.)

Does walking from the kitchen to the livingroom count, or only walking more than a few steps?

7b_wizard - - Parent

[see answer & distinction two posts above] .. I don't know what made me have that thought, but it struck me that I am actually juggling way more than I walk. Why "walk"? .. well, it's sooo genuinely normal, we think we do it always and forever and it's so omnipresent, it's part of our definition as upright walking humans. Yeah .. wrong! - we don't do it as much as we think .. we have cars, bikes, trams, planes, trains, busses; we have professions and desks where we sit; and for many people, jogging, walking, taking a walk, wandering is an activity that they (have to) take extra time for. Walking is not ``always there´´ as one might easily first think.

So, one juggler might indeed be juggling (notably) more time than doing what seems granted fro a member of the human upright walking species.

( It's a bit analogue to the insight that modern (over)civilized humans don't walk anymore as much as they used to and not walk as much anymore as what they were ``originally meant for´´, but have cars and sit a lot now, instead. Just that now for juggling, and if it's true for you. )

Guili - - Parent

if we take walking as an activity, not just moving yourself through the house, like maria said, then I definetively juggle a LOT more than i walk...

7b_wizard - - Parent

Any walking counts as "human upright walk", no matter where, while what (even while juggling). Just "time walked" versus "time juggled without walking". One-two steps don't count as really "walking upright" (and it's seconds only anyway), but time of indeed really (clearly) "walking while juggling" counts as +-0, and "walking through the house" is "walking" through the house and counts as such. - Anyway - if one's answer should depend on such distinctions and it's not clear, then please choose "3. Not sure." (unclear, not definitely or positively rather "yes", not definitely or with clear tendency towards rather "no")

Little Paul - - Parent

According to fatbit I walk more than 15k steps every day (which is around 10Km apparently)

There’s no way I juggle that much!

Marvin - - Parent

This competition has now ended with 12 votes cast. The results are:

  1.   Yes. (4 votes)
  2.   No. (7 votes)
  3.   Not sure. (1 vote)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Oh wow, .. didn't expect that many "yes". But then again, all you need to not walk a lot, is simply to use the bike a lot for example, or to not move a lot at all lol except when juggling.

Sergei -

What is normal progress for beginner juggler?
How long it takes to reach and what it means "stable cascade"? What about other tricks?

Guili - - Parent

well... i guess it deppends on many factors...
mainly, the time and effort one puts on it, right?
another factor is your body and mind, i mean, it is clear to me that each one of us can be good at some things, not so much at others. for example your body and mind could be more capable for juggling than rock-climbing.
the point is to find something you like doing, and just keep doing it until you get it.
the time it takes you, only you can tell. there is no "normal" people, we're all different.
also the context, are you juggling alone? is somebody teaching you?
for example it took me a few years (teaching myself, not doing it everyday, or even everyweek) to master 4 balls, but my wife got it in like a month with my help... i don't think that means she's better that me... each one of us is walking his path.
so i guess my advice is allways compare yourself to yourself, never to others.
enjoy the progress, don't get anxious to get to the goal.
it's a brave thing you're doing. starting with this world at 67 y.o., so my respects to you!

ah, and i guess 60 catches could qualify as stable, right?
but it's endless... i mean, after getting the 60, you will want to make 100, and so on...

Sergei - - Parent

My record is 80 catches, but next time balls falls after 10-12 throws (((

Orinoco - - Parent

Never worry about how long it takes to learn a pattern. Just enjoy the process!

Little Paul - - Parent

Juggling is a journey, not a destination. Nothing wrong with enjoying the scenery!

7b_wizard - - Parent

"Stable", I'd say, for a pattern is when the pattern is well-timed (right handmovements in time, comfortable tact) and well-spaced (comfortable equal spaces between all balls, good geometry), well-aligned (no great spread, balls follow one another well, follow their flightlines well).
You can get a "stable cascade" sometimes, but still not always, still doing tensed and with arms rowing a lot (e.g. when doing a nice, but too big huge pattern), and still getting drops and fails also a lot. So, getting a "stable pattern" isn't yet the best you can get.
"Stable juggling", I'd say, means you get stable patterns a lot and have less to no drops; I guess, it also then means more control.

Other words (and notions) to describe how well a pattern (itself) runs or how the ado of juggling it goes (judging also posture, hand- and bodymovement), are "kept up [for #n rounds or catches]", "fluent", "flowy", "floaty", "snapped-in", "running", "rolling", (whatever these might distinctly mean) .. maybe "poised" (but that sounds point-of-view, like "nice" or "superb" or so), .. then, rather unprecise, I find, expressions like "getting it down" or "owning" a pattern; maybe these can mean, you can show the pattern anytime a few rounds, or else it could mean, you can do it in your sleep.

Higher levels, I'd say, would be when it is not a challenge anymore to do without drops, when hands seem to ``do all by themselves´´, when you're getting better at correcting outbreakers back to pattern (easily) with fast precise correction throws, or even when you can bail out a completely rotten pattern back to stable. When you can move, sit down, bend, turn, jogg with the pattern, do it on bycicle. When it's well in rhythm, when the whole ado (You + balls + your handmovement + the whole pattern + your brainwork + your automatisms + your mindset) feels like One.

I like (to go for) control over the pattern, full control.

How long it takes to learn depends on how much you stay aware that there's always more to still learn that you know nothing about yet, thus not getting stuck on a level where you think you got it, but don't get any better and don't understand why.
Always reckon for the unknown.

Other tricks give a compare to how juggling is more than getting the cascade down - they define the cascade and its skills as what it is among what else there also is.

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