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On the beach, a couple of weeks back, I taught a couple of kids to juggle. One of them gave up after a couple of minutes but the other was throwing 2 ball cascades after only four/five tries. He was juggling 3b cascade in about 15 mins! It was such a nice experience for both of us. As he left with his family I gave him three of my juggling balls.
I wanted to start a new thread about how I met a juggler on the beach, passed myself off as a muggle & scored a free set of juggling balls. Sadly it has been a very long time since I was last able to pass myself off as a kid.
Good for you for giving him the juggling balls. That was a lovely gesture.
When someone's that into it and so quick to learn, I couldn't let him leave without some balls to continue. He's probably already a better juggler than me.
Relatedly, if you're interested in fast learners... I have taught hundreds of people to juggle (maybe >1000) and the (by far) two fastest learners I have seen in juggling both turned out to be tennis coaches!
I learned at a tennis camp, from my coach. And then coached tennis! I find that hockey players tend to do well, too.
I had a similar experience with someone liking diabolo last week and sent them away with a spare diabolo.
Fortunately, their parents are an acquaintance and so I will likely get a progress report at some point next year. Hopefully they stick with it!
this is one of the great experiencies that "social juggling" brings us.
I had the fortune to be that kid once.. well, not so young, but I was 18 and met an older girl that was juggling with 3 clubs, i aproached her, she tought me the basics, and then she gave me her clubs!
I also had the rewarding feeling of teaching many people how to juggle, and giving a set of balls to a kid that was learning really well.
it felt like closing the circle, you know.. giving back to life what i've received.
Are there good coaches (teachers) in Juggling? I am beginner is Juggling with 7 mo experience and the advice I most freguently got from obviously advanced guys sounds like "Keep practicing" )) I am pretty good coach in Karate (4 degree black belt) and Chess (International Master in Blitz) and to my non-humble opinion advice like "keep doing" is total disaster. Even pretty good tutorials lack extremely important thing, that is transition from preliminary exercises to full patters. Niel's video on 3 b Box is typical example of BAD tutorial because it is very superficial. From the other side Niel's video on "W" pattern is very GOOD )) So I repeat my question : are there GOOD teachers in Jugging World ?
Box is quite difficult trick when you just start with it, so it isn´t easy to describe it and teach it, especially on the video. It is much easier to teach somebody something in real life because you can see mistakes and errors and give advices. When I have workshops, I am able to teach people to juggle at least 3 balls if they really want and try, but it is just because I see how did they try to juggle. If they just write me why I can´t learn it, I have no idea what is their problem. Maybe it would be much better for you to make a video of your box attempts so we could give you better advice)
It is also a question who is a good teacher - because it is not only in the teacher but also a client or student has to try and have a motivation to do it)
what I mean GOOD coaching is helping the client to go through several easy understandable steps as I can explain "Ura-mawashi-geri" that is pretty complicated karate kick. And I am 100% sure I can teach everyone not depending age, sex, or religious affiliation )) I have got the advice here to try 441 and the first preliminary 2b exercise was very useful to improve my juggling "feeling" as a whole. I guess I have my own way in this art ))
I do karate too, so I know^^ Wish you a good luck with the box and glad tvar that my advice helped a little
Richard Kennison and Yuri (from Russia) come to mind as two legendary juggling coaches.
I'd like to think my tutorial videos are reasonably good. Here's one on siteswap that I made about siteswap: https://youtu.be/rWQXOHn3sw8 It's a little old, and will probably someday get wrecked by Youtube changing how annotations work, but it did teach my non-juggling grandmother siteswap!
The transition from exercises to full pattern is an interesting point. I recall Ivan Pecel's DVD Advanced 4 and 5 Ball Moves pretty much always ending with "and now that you have done it on either side, run it" which often worked okay for me. I can think of some examples when running the pattern introduces problems that flashing did not: with 645 with the 6s as fountains, make sure you keep those 6s rolling out far enough to not cause collisions. What are the problems you're running into in the particular tutorials you're watching? Do you think there are generalizable difficulties across patterns?
Back in 2011 I made a list of attributes of good vs bad tutorials. Finding it now would be a nightmare, but I'll be redoing some of that research because I'm going to be involved in the IJA making some tutorials soon (I hope!). Maybe I'll start a new thread for it.
"Here's one on siteswap that I made about siteswap"
Great proofreading, Mike! Still a bit drained from the IJA.
Of course there are good teachers! But YouTube is not necessarily the best medium for good teaching...
I'm sure I could teach you the box if we met in person... Also I'm a fan of the methodology of Craig Quat, he explains some of it on vimeo and is now training teachers all over Europe.
On a higher level, I have interviewed juggling teachers such as Jay Gilligan, Sakari Mannisto and Gregor Kiock, if you look up Juggle Jabber on YouTube you'll find them. I would say they are good teachers, although they don't really discuss the subject of learning single 3b tricks such as the box...
Craig Quat - good idea running balls. I was doing it on inclined surface, but using lines will be much better for stability. I guess I can build Craig's board myself. Now I am pretty sure I will learn Box and 4 balls stuff in nearest 6 months. Thanks a lot!
There are good teachers out there. I think the best thing is if you can get to a juggling club or juggling conventions and there you will often find very helpful, knowledgeable people who will gladly help out your juggling (and they are usually pretty good).
I think what can lead to huge progress in juggling is to progress as quickly as possible to 5 ball juggling and to learn siteswap notation. With siteswap notation learnt, you will have the ability to put patterns into freely and widely available simulators and watch them in slow-mo at various heights and speeds, hugely helpful. With 5 ball juggling learnt, you will have the fundamentals of juggling down. I don't know what your current juggling level is? But I would advise to try to go through 4 & 5 ball juggling until you are making 100+ catch runs of 5 balls (or around 25+ seconds), at which point, you will have a level of control sufficient for numerous tricks.
I have spent ~10 years teaching circus skills, including juggling and can help you out if I know your level.
Thanks for the comments. I seriously doubt you will teach me, the 67 old guy, who started juggling 7 months ago ))) selfteaching with no juggling club or convention. I am just at the beginning level haveing 3 b cascade, reverse, "W" over 100 catches plus stable 3b cascade in laying down position (because it is good for my old spine) Right shower up to 37 catches. I will be completely satisfied with stable LEFT shower + stable Box )))
If you will be happy with box, then it will not be too hard. It will also be worth learning some other tricks other than just focusing on shower & box, to improve your throwing, catching and understanding of juggling in general. It might be a less painful path to left hand shower and box in that case. Usual beginner tricks are:
441: https://youtu.be/2jmL-T1IdSY <-- This guy does good tutorials. Unfortunately, mostly for the intermediate 3 ball juggler
Two in one hand: https://youtu.be/_LZKSyhj__g?start=216
I think the first two should also fairly directly help your box, whereas tennis and windmill, while improving your overall ability, will not focus as hard on exactly what box and LH shower need. 441 helps you learn the '1' throw in both directions, crucial for box. Two in one hand, particularly in your left hand, will improve your speed & accuracy in the weaker hand perhaps more than anything else you could practice at this stage.
Have you considered a program like this one? Its an affordable way to get high quality coaching advice. Along with instructional videos, Juggling Mastery students are granted access to a private Facebook page, where the instructor (Lauri) is consistantly answering questions and doing live video calls.
Here's an interesting article with interviews with Dan Holzman, Jay Gilligan, Richard Kennison and Paul Arneberg, "Juggling Coaches", by Scott Cain on IJA's juggle.org.
I've attended classes with many great teachers, I'm thinking of Sean Gandini, Jay Gilligan, Wes Peden & Matt Hall in particular. In each case what made them great for me was their individual enthusiasm & their ability to open my eyes to new possibilities & ideas. The teaching in terms of breaking down the mechanics of individual tricks was not important to me.
I would guess that the vast majority of jugglers I know are mostly self taught like me. I think there is an expectation in the juggling world that you should develop your own unique style which shuns rigid coaching. If I want to learn a new trick I will always want to figure it out my own way of doing it partly due to a desire to be unique, partly because I enjoy figuring things out on my own & partly due to simple arrogance. I don't think I'm alone in this which I believe explains why there aren't many juggling coaches to choose from.
Anthony Gatto & Jason Garfield have tried & failed to make a go of the professional juggling coach to hobby jugglers (as opposed to circus school teachers which I think is a different thing entirely) in the style of music/dance/martial arts instructors that exist everywhere. Anthony Trahir seems to be doing ok for himself, as does Lauri Koskinen (who is a new name to me), I wish them both success.
I vaguely recall Erin Stephens(?) who put out a video which was a good example of effective coaching. It showed the juggling of a group of young girls that she had trained, all of whom were very accomplished & had a style that clearly came from one instructor (eg. I recall a particular under the leg catch where the right hand goes inside the right leg & the ball is caught on the outside that many of the girls performed very well).
Anthony and Nick Gatto worked with a number of jugglers such as Gena Shvartsman Cristiani, C.J. Smith Jr., Mark Kolbusz, among others (I believe they worked with Francois Rochais too). I took a workshop led by Anthony and Nick at the IJA in 2003 (it was about 2 hours a day for 3 or 4 days).
At one point about ten years ago Anthony let people know that Nick was interested in coaching people, but he was retired at the time and it's not like he was trying to do it full time as a profession.
I don't think Anthony ever tried to coach juggling full time either. It was just something he was willing to do a little on the side.
Yes, there are many GOOD teachers in the juggling world. You already got some great advice in this thread.
I recommend posting your questions here, or on the reddit juggling forum (r/juggling).
If possible, upload videos of yourself to youtube. By seeing videos of your juggling we can give you better advice.
If at all possible, you should go to a juggling club and/or festival.
If you have any juggling questions, you can email me: jlouisdavis at gnail.com
Old school Flyer for the 1st Covent Garden Juggling Convention
Image acquired via Topper, via Stuart Ashman.
That's spiffy Orinoco, nice find. I have a vague feeling I went to the second one, or something very similar.
It sort of feels a bit like people used to put more effort into their flyers back then.
It's also interesting how little information was conveyed. These days so many people want to know the schedule detailed down to the last minute, the name & biography of every performer, the full menu available etc. I do like the 'turn up, see what you find' vibe. When I first started going to BJCs all the information I had was a couple of paragraphs detailing the essentials in The Catch. I miss that.
A quick browse suggests that most online retailers are all selling the same cube which look like they are being made by a Taiwanese manufacturer primarily for https://www.jugglegear.com/ looks like it only comes in 2 sizes as standard, 4ft & 5 ft.
However, it is probable that the this prop is low volume enough that requesting a custom size might not be that much more expensive. Also seeing as most places appear to be out of stock now might be an excellent time to get them to make a special cube out of any off cuts they may have. Can't hurt to ask them.
I'm surprised a smaller cube isn't available as standard. I also think double cube spinning would look pretty neat.
Thanks for this! I guess it's not popular enough at this point to have many variations.
Quick question regarding shoes for juggling stage performances:
Anyone have a favorite style of shoe the like to wear while they perform? I've tried jazz shoes for a few years now, and they tend to not have enough grip for 360s etc. So, any suggestions?
I love feiyues, it's a kungfu shoe which is popular among Chinese pole acrobats and circus students in general. But they don't look great on stage.
For pretty shoes I like Bleyer, custom colors and everything. Email them about their grip soles, for a fiver extra you get great soles on your shoes.
If you need standard smart/dress shoes go to shoesforcrews. They look basic but feel almost like a sneaker and have great grip.
Thank you so much for the suggestions! I've just ordered a pair of Feiyues, and I'm going to be ordering some shoes from Bleyer for an upcoming performance!
Coming from a ballet background, I would say to think about your "push off" technique. You shouldn't need to use your other foot at all to generate rotation. A bad technique can cause injury, it may be worthwhile to attend some dance classes to improve your technique to try to minimise the risk of injury in the longer term.
In ballet, do you use your upper body and arms to generate rotation? That’s cool for dancing, but for juggling you are often using your arms for something else at the time you want to begin generating rotational force.
You use a surprising amount of stomach muscles to generate rotation, with some shoulder (but more stomach than people realise).
Techniques will need to be adapted for juggling (of course), but going to more grippy shoes because of "push off" issues is more likely to cause problems - with the rotating foot getting stuck and twisting knees.
Unless a character would have a reason for wearing different shoes, then I would recommend refining a technique that enables jugglers to avoid knee injury caused by jarring.
You use a surprising amount of stomach muscles to generate rotation, with some shoulder (but more stomach than people realise).
Specifically your internal & external oblique abdominal muscles. So standard sit ups won't help.
If you are doing a lot of 360s then less grippy shoes are a better option.
I think most people have the same instinct that more grip = more force to launch the spin = better spins. However, if you spin with a grippy soled shoe it puts a rotational stress on your knee which is a major cause for knee operations among salsa dancers. This is why you won't find many grippy dance shoes. The other way of looking at the problem is: Reducing friction = less force required to spin = better spins.
I'm convinced that the reason why jugglers who wear trainers get better at 360s is because they gradually wear away the grip from the one foot they consistently spin on.
I started getting problems with my knees due to dancing so I started wearing these Cotton soled kung fu shoes. It took a while to adjust but it has definitely made things easier & I won't be going back.
Yes, I would agree.
The main problem is that the foot that is kicking off the spin does not have enough grip. Which means that there is ultimately not enough force generated to create multiple fast and clean spins.
Those cotton soled shoes look very comfortable!
Hi Ethan, @ all - would it make sense to wear two different shoes (L+R), one for pushing \kicking off, and one for the stance foot turning, maybe? Or have a rubber cap for the pushing foot ( that you can slip over when needed and take off when not anymore ) ? (don't they have it in bowling?)
Ofek Snir is notorious for his super fast spins (7-up 1080!) and he wears a sock on his spinning foot and goes barefoot on his other. Not often appropriate for performing, but he pulled it off in "Sock It".
Ah, okay. Impressing! .. I'd still go with what Dee said above - sounds profund and very plausible. ( So Ofek is maybe an exeption to the rule, with maybe his own technique perfectionned, or maybe evn bluntly doing it wrong and overstressing his anatomy on the long run )
Btw., I myself get dizzy after a one stage 540° turn lol and try it only rarely.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-physicsand-physicalityof-extreme-juggling/ - links to the Edge. The video is nice, too.
Nice. I wouldn't like to question Alex Barron's abilities, but I wonder if that 25 near the end was meant to be a 15? Perhaps not, I dunno!
Jack Kalvan's original paper stated the average was 16 & the highest was 24 so Alex's 25 seems legit.
I actually misquoted myself in my post that's linked to in the article. The original quote in the IJDB article is "Finally, Peter agrees with Ben Beever in his belief that someone will flash 14 balls someday but not 15."
I've always been careful to not say that I think that 15 is impossible, but made one lapse which happens to have been picked up in the Wired article.
I have nothing to lose - I can say it, so here we go:
15 balls is im-poss-si-ble.
sounds like a prophecy... haha
but I think mankind has an ability to overcome seemingly impossible obstacles... regardless of the price to itself, others, the earth, etc...
so, one day, what was impossible, is not anymore :)
Perhaps many 'impossibilities' are overcome able, if the incentive is high enough... With the amount of money and organization that goes into football, I'm sure jugglers could reach an unimaginably high skill level. But is it likely that juggling will ever be that high on the list for future societies?
I suppose that's the bottleneck, people don't care enough.. I recon any young person who really wants to can learn to flash 11 balls, yet only a couple dozen people have done so..
hello everyone! my name is Yonatan, and i have to admit i have already had a thread here a couple of years back about 5 ball training. I'm ashamed to admit though that the reason I'm posting now is the exact same... i took a really really long break from juggling due to leukemia (all fine now! got me some new bone marrow and I'm three years healthy) and a friend of mine who just got back from the ijc convinced me to get back into it, which I'm super excited about.
since my return to juggling a few things bothered my over analytical database-oriented brain. the first thing was that i don't know how people train. so first question, and this is fairly subjective so i know you gonna have more than a few opinions on this (though I'll be glad to know if any of you have a study on the subject):
what do you find the most efficient way for you to train? working for one specific goal the whole session (trying to get this one trick down)? getting all over the place (working your 5 balls for some time, getting tired and changing it up with some 3 ball body throws or even setting the balls aside for a bit and picking up the diabolo)? or working on similar but different tricks (4 ball shower and 5 balls both have hard tall throws, so lets do both)?
I have a notebook i keep my juggling thoughts in, so i might lay a few more on you the next time i get a chance ;).
been training 5 balls using Thom Wall's guide.. wanted to get your input on it (i can get ~25 throws of right 5551, qualified left 5551, get a flash of 5551 in my fountain and semi-consistent flash 5)
Welcome back and I'm happy to hear you're healthy!
I have a few "focus patterns" that I make sure I put some time into every session. Depending on where I am in those patterns and how things are going on that day, the amount of time for each varies from 3-~15 minutes. Then I have some secondary patterns/pattern families that I try to chip away at when I remember.
My warm up tends to be a "whatever I feel like for a little", sometimes with a focus on a certain type of movement (e.g. left-handed dots, body throw combos, etc.). When warming up for numbers, I try to incorporate patterns that are below my skill level, but unpracticed, so that I have to do lots of corrections. Corrections warm up the body very quickly!
I practically only train with balls. I don't have enough time or skill to make meaningful contributions to juggling with a diversity of props. I do play with other props some, but mostly socially and not too seriously.
Thom Wall's guide + sweat + time = 5b cascade :)
hi man! thanks! what do you mean you do corrections? how do you purposely get in a situation you need to correct?
I find that patterns that are unpracticed but below my general technical skill result in having to do many corrections while keeping the pattern alive. The ones I enjoy right now are some flashes of siteswaps out of a 5b reverse cascade. Balls go everywhere, but because I have a pretty solid 5b and those siteswaps are pretty easy for my in a normal cascade, I can wrangle everything back in and repeat.
And if all else fails, I listen to Chandelier by Sia. I can't help but move a bunch after seeing that amazing music video way too many times.
Yeah, downright mindblowing. There are times when I see/hear something that makes me realize I had no idea how good at certain things people are. Sort of like an abrupt mental re-benchmarking Some examples:
William Lin's BJC performance way back
Maddie Ziegler's Chandelier video
When a competitive classical singer that I was teaching chemistry to sang (!!!)
Occasional research papers (the Nobel Prize one on neutrino oscillations where they had to filter out the radioactivity from THE WIRES IN THEIR ELECTRONICS comes to mind, as well as some of the framework-development ones in educational research).
Do you (or anyone else) remember those types of moments? What are some that come to mind?
I'll have to move those up the reading list a bit. Thanks for the recommendations.
Have you read Thinking Fast and Slow? I'm only partially finished it but am enjoying it an awful lot! Go figure: a book that explains part of how your thought patterns work is good at influencing your thought patterns.
oooh, good question... ones that immediately spring to mind.
Lars Andersen - archery
Jane Zhang doing the Diva song from the Fifth Element live with no synthesizer assistance.
Adam Winrich - whip cracking
Sean DeBurca - fingerstyle guitar, I first saw Sean perform live in Tunbridge Wells when he was I think 17 years old, I had never heard fingerstyle before.
Veronika Petrova, Inna Lymar, & Yuriy Danilchenko - skipping
Sometimes when I see something that SHOULD reframe how I see a discipline, I can feel myself rationalizing that I had obviously thought of that before, or that "of course it should be at this level". It's kind of hard to explain, but that's how I felt when I first saw Lars's archery video (and how I used to see Dave Kelly's and Chris Hodge's videos). Almost like they're doing something categorically different, and the stuff they're doing CAN'T be similar to what I've seen before.
That whip cracking video was something else!
I don't know why, but I've randomly encountered so many VERY good skippers. In high school I saw a professional skipper perform in a talent show. At Turbofest in the first few years I went (2010-~2012?) there was a really amazing skipper. In Japan, while walking the streets randomly, I came across this:
It's funny how things happen.
And the middle section of that Raw Art video was very cool!
Congratulations on the health front! Facing leukemia is a far more impressive trick than a 5 ball cascade so this should be easy for you!
Don't focus too much on 5 ball like patterns. Getting a good start when you launch the pattern is really important, & launching 2 balls from one hand is different to launching 3 so make sure you practice that part.
Also try to practice a little bit more than a flash as soon as possible, even if it is just 1 more throw. With a flash it is fairly easy to compensate for errors in rhythm, during the running pattern, not so much.
If you like data & analysis ty keeping a practice log, it can draw graphs for you & everything!
Thanks man! valuable input. so you say i should stick to the flashes to learn launching 5 balls?
the practice log was a major reason to come back here, though i never used it before :P
I think so.
I don't think it is worthwhile breaking down base patterns (3, 5, 7 ball cascade etc) too much. The best practice for a 5 ball cascade is a 5 ball cascade. Breaking things into components only makes sense to me for combination tricks involving different skills, & for more complex patterns where you need to do different types of throw.
In a cascade every ball does the same thing, for 5+ balls the important points are rhythm, accuracy & speed. If you take out a ball for 55550 it is still possible to do the pattern without the correct timing which allows bad habits to develop.
for 5 ball cascade, I warmly recommend this: http://juggling.tv/16767 with 3 balls, the idea being: if you can't do it with 3 balls, how can you expect to get it with five?! And it will be necessary to keep a 5 ball cascade up and to get it stable, that one has at least somewhat of control on most of those dimensions shown in the vid, especially 5b speed (and handspeed) and 5b height (and precision \accuracy \aiming well there), but also for correcting or for working against any drifts, twists, furthermore for controlling the front plane, then for finding your most comfortable and efficient posture, so far for what I can think of.
It's pure cascade training; this approach skips any 4b exercises, but as you seem to be getting along well with the fountain and siteswaps, all this is maybe just a minor alternative. Yet, checking it out at least briefly might find the one or other exercise that could be a precious clue for improving on 5b.
( I'm afraid my practise, though structured mostly after priorities, that i stubbornly work on, a huge ``plight´´-part, "good-fors" and only a small ``leisure´´-part, .. afraid, my practise isn't as efficient as should, so I'd rather not extend on it. )
cheers & happy juggling
Inverted Sprung Fountain
I always feel the need to post here whenever I make big headway on inverted sprung stuff because it was Julius's videos that started me on it. Finally got a short run of inverted sprung fountain!
Psst! I can't see any details of Guelph fest in the events database...
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