juggler's tennis - the higher ball takes a tiny bit longer to fly, right.

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7b_wizard -

juggler's tennis - the higher ball takes a tiny bit longer to fly, right.

now, how andor where do you gain the corresponding longer flighttime for it to fit fit into the pattern without ruining it?

I'd assume either throwing that tennisball fromout slightly higher with a longer way handmovement always up and down then, or ..

.. or do you reduce dwelltime for that tennisthrow, kind 'a like rushing it, "getting rid of it" sooner right after catch, like of a burnin' hot cooked potatoe, or even volley or racket that ball, .. and do you then throw it earlier that way or later, or ..

.. or is there yet another way ? maybe slowing the two cascade throws down, increasing these's dwelltime? I find that puzzling; I think I'm doing a mixture of all of these, but can't tell exactly or for sure how to do it best or right.

Tufty - - Parent

I think you're overthinking it.

That said, if you want to know exactly what's going on, film it, high speed if possible, and go through it frame by frame.

7b_wizard - - Parent

guess so, yeah, it's rather physics of jughling theory then, but I'm also thinking of how to teach it well to a pupil, so ..

7b_wizard - - Parent

filming, yeah, but I myself might be doing it wrong or not the best or most reasonable way.

Tufty - - Parent

I wouldn't personally say there's a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. Sometimes you might want the extra pause generated by the higher throw, other times you might want to maintain the same rhythm. Sometimes a higher catch might set you up better for a high move afterwards. And that's all down to specific context (and to be honest, I find it sorta happens automatically anyway). IMO, for teaching, all that really matters is getting distinction and consistency in the pattern. Playing with the timing comes later, although it is one of the first patterns you learn that really emphasises the rhythmic difference of different throws - for a learner it will almost always result in a different rhythm : short short long short short long. I'd say that shorter dwell times and high catches are much more advanced topics, higher catches coming probably from the "under the arm throw / chops" transition. Not sure of a trick that really brings out shorter dwells, though.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Isn't it .. long -- long -- short -- long -- long -- short .. for the handrhythm, as you have to stretch the normal cascade throws' dwell to make up for the tennis throw's longer flighttime in order to not get a pause that destroys the viable jugglable rhythm?

I still wouldn't know what to tell a learner who has a problem with the tennisball being late destroying his pattern, not finding a viable rhythm for it, not a jugglable good timing, ( but offering him those different possibilities as described in my original post above, not knowing for sure how to do it best ) ...

Maria - - Parent

I would argue that the pattern isn't destroyed because the rhythm is uneven, it's just different.

However, sometimes I want to keep the rhythm even in Tennis. In that case, I change the hand position for both throw and catch for the "tennis" ball, holding my hands higher so that the air time is about the same as for the other balls.

Tufty - - Parent

Like Maria says, a pause doesn't destroy the pattern. For a beginner, it's possibly important that there is a pause, as it gives breathing space. My advice to beginners on tennis (and the preceding "one ball over the top") has always been to make the over the top throw exaggeratedly differently to the rest, significantly higher and / or wider, to play with the way it feels at different heights and widths and what it does to the rhythm.

What might be interesting would be to come back to something like tennis once they've mastered more complex patterns, as an indication of how more advanced techniques can alter simpler patterns. At that point, yeah, lower dwells, higher catches and throws, all that jazz. Put until then, the major advice is "practice more" :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

@both (Maria, Tufty), "pause doesn't destroy it" - °hupp° .. jus'a sec, but a pause should mean that ball is t o o late, the handling hand would be late catching and rethrowing and then be late catching its next normal cascade ball .. aaaaahnd, these pauses of each tennis throw would in my mind accumulate, no?

@Tufty, "practise more" - sry, I find that horrible, unprofessional teaching advice to someone who got stuck ( on even a distinct problem: timing ) .. practise what?!, what exactly. I mean, I don't need a (payed) teacher to tell me thaat?! Okay, "try higher, wider, how it feels" is more distinct of an advice; but still somehow unclear on what exactly is going on in the tennis pattern, and how to solve the timing problem. But maybe you're right 'cos maybe the tennis pattern is simply corrupt by nature lol and you have to come around it - indeed: "somehow"!?

@Maria - okay, "a bit higher, both, throw & catch".

Maria - - Parent

"too late", yeah it will be later, but too late compared to what? "Timing problem", why is a change in the timing a problem?

I mean, I guess if you juggle to music and really want to keep the throws on the beats it's a bit of a problem, but otherwise I don't see why it matters.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Well, I meant for a beginner, "too late" to keep the rhythm .. if there's a pause, it means that the next normal ball eill be too early .. it's stressing the cascade patterns equal beats.

But, if one manages to get the first tennis-throw through, hasting that hands next ball, the rhythm is broken, and the lack of time will remain, and will accumulate with each tennis throw. A beginner often doesn't have the handspeed, nor the brains to cope with changes in rhythm, is what I mean - they're already doing at the limit and can't handle any delay with already the next ball of that hand falling. ..

.. It's like working on a thingerrhwhatsitsname, an automated production line - every delay needs be recovered by hasting the next products correspondingly faster, else you get behind and the line needs be stopped.

Tufty - - Parent

> A beginner often doesn't have the handspeed, nor the brains to cope with changes in rhythm

This is why I would recommend getting beginners to do occasional single high and wide throws, it's practice for dealing with pauses in the rhythm, and then for them to do occasional high tennis throws, which gets them used to the difference in movement between cascade and reverse cascade / tennis throw. I also get them to start playing with the occasional non-crossing throw, which not only buggers with the rhythm, but also is a first step on the route to 4 balls.

As for the idea that you're somehow going to accumulate pauses, I'll do a quick video to show you what I mean.

Tufty - - Parent

It'll be up in a while once it's finished uploading, possibly this evening given that my internet is made from wet string. It's badly framed but should get the idea across.

Quick and dirty video

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hey coool :oD that really de-co-rates this thread!

As for the contents, the patterns and ideas in it:

your tennis is wonderful, so lax or with a secret slomo effect or something, astonishingly casually wristy ;o} . Now, where you say, you "weren't quite sure, how you're doin' it .. probably catching it a bit higher." is exactly my original question, .. and even doing tennis myself or watching you do it now here, still leaves me unclear about what is physically really going on - 'cos I actually indeed can't see you throwing or catching it higher .. Oo.0 .. so either I'm bad at watching juggling lol or it's indeed sth else that makes up for the slightly longer air time. Maybe even a longer dwell inside, slowing the inside throws down ( which is different from speeding the tennis-throw up ), I want to guess.

then, on behalf of accumulating pauses, you understood me wrong. I didn't mean increasing flighttimes of the tennis-throws. But rather the tennisball landing being late, thus catchhand being late, the tennisball [°] will be rethrown, thus also arrive late = e-ven la-ter, is what I meant.

( [°] - not even speaking of then the next ball thrown by that late hand will also be late and arrive later (!) messing the whole rhythm up even more )

But, hey, it's not such a huge pause or delay or change in rhythm, only and the more slightly the bigger the pattern is juggled, so practically, okay, intuition might very well cope with it. But still the physics of it all keeps on turning in circles to me ..

#jugglersTennis #tennis #dwell #dwelltime #rhythm #handmovement #delay #theory #physics #theoryOfJuggling #physicsOfJuggling

Tufty - - Parent

> rather the tennisball landing being late, thus catchhand being late, the tennisball [°] will be rethrown, thus also arrive late = e-ven la-ter, is what I meant.

That only applies if all of the below apply

1 - you're trying to throw every ball to the timing of a strict 3 ball cascade metronome
2 - you're not automatically adjusting something else (higher catches, etc) to compensate
3 - the delay of the arriving ball is such that you can't catch and then throw it on time.

For a beginner, I'd suggest the one and only thing they are worrying about is getting that weird "over the top" tennis throw to go - well - over the top. They're almost certainly not going to be doing (2), due to not having the experience / neural pathways burned in. While there's a certain validity to trying to get beginners to keep the rhythm of a given pattern solid, i.e. (1), that doesn't mean every rhythm has to be (or even should be) the equivalent of 4/4. Different rhythms are interesting, and it's not like you're trying to get beginners to do "clapping music"*. if we were to exaggerate matters, tennis is easier as something approaching a 33522 pattern than as a simple 3. The pause is the beginner's payoff for that tongue-out-of-the-mouth different throw.

Not that the question itself isn't interesting. I think it would be very interesting to bring a more experienced juggler, say one who's got a handle on mills mess, back to tennis for a bit, and work on different rhythmic and compensatory variations.

Just had a (very) quick look through the video frame by frame, I think I'm doing a sort of combination of things - catching the tennis ball very slightly higher, and perhaps with less dwell - the "tennis" hand doesn't go down as far on the catch, but that might just be because it's going more side to side. I'm not consciously doing it, though, I said to myself that I'd do it on the beat and it just sorta happened, in the way that once you have a pattern down pat, the preceding throws before going into it seem to work to make the transition clean. Try doing a mills mess, for example, and watch what you're doing in the 2 throws before.

* which is, in itself, pretty simple, it's the phasing and interaction with other musicians that makes it insanely hard to do...

7b_wizard - - Parent

1 - yes,
2 - yes,
3 - yes, you hurry the tennisball landing slightly later, its rethrow ( the tennis-throw thrown back over), seen, the catch of the next inside ball is earlier ahead. That 2nd tennis-throw will not only stay late, but on its way now accumulate one more longer air time.

do it on the beat .. good, interesting words for it, good focus and orientation.

Yeah, the preceding throw(s) is/are a bit higher earning the time for longer/greater handmovements.

Maria - - Parent

But why not just wait a bit with the throw after the tennis throw? (Of course delaying everything after that, don't try to get back to the previous beats.)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Oh. So simple. 🙃 The throw right be-fore the catch. Yeowh! This really seems easiest to accomplish!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Makes perfect sense, to distinctly prepare it like that. I don't think, tennis is an easy beginner's pattern, and even after it clicked, enduring it over more than say like 6 rounds would, I think, make the difficulty of keeping the tennis-rhythm reappear.

Tufty - - Parent

> these pauses of each tennis throw would in my mind accumulate, no?

Really? You call yourself 7b_wizard and you're asking that? It's not hard to, y'know, try it.

As I see it, there is no timing problem in tennis. There is potentially a pause, but it's not a pattern breaker, as there's nothing else in the air at the time. The same thing won't work for 5 ball patterns, obviously, but that's not what we're talking about.

Remember, tennis is a very early pattern to learn.

- throw one ball from hand to hand.
- throw one ball from hand to hand and clap etc
- 2 ball cascade exchange starting with the "weak" hand
- 2 ball cascade exchange starting with the "strong" hand
- 3 ball cascade
- 3 ball cascade with occasional high throw, cascade style, catch it with whichever hand feels best
- 3 ball cascade with occasional high throw, cascade style, it must cross (both hand variants)
- 3 ball cascade with occasional high throw, cascade style, it must not cross (both hand variants)
- 3 ball cascade with occasional tennis throw, "one over the top" (both hand variants)
- tennis
- half shower (both directions)
- reverse cascade
...

Once your student has the cascade down, which can be 10 minutes to a couple of days depending on the individual, getting to the point where tennis is achievable is about an hour at most, and doing so is a uestion of them "getting their head around it". It's far too early to be talking to them about dwell times or high catches, IMO. And yes, "practice more" is perfectly valid advice (although it's accompanied by suggestions as to what you need to be working on and watching out for), and occasional coming back and re-directing. Learning to juggle is about muscle memory, and that /only/ comes through practice. Lots and lots of long and tedious practice, repeating the same thing over and over again.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hm .. okay, guess we're stuck a bit on this talk.

Thanks, both, for messing and giving your opinions and experience! :-)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Do you by "over the top" mean only one tennis throw back to cascade ( in distinction to "tennis" ) ?

 

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