What on Earth is going on at Juggling Rock?

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Cedric Lackpot -

What on Earth is going on at Juggling Rock?

I'm not really old enough to understand all the Facebook old fogies, but there seems to have been a heckin' big ruckus over at Juggling Rock earlier today. Can anyone provide a brief rundown, preferably of the unbiased variety?

From what I've read I understand summary bans have been issued, people have got terribly upset about it all, and it all seems a bit of a mess. But it's FB so I really can't be arsed to trawl through everything - and evidently some of it has been deleted anyway - but can anyone give me an overview? Is it a genuine dispute or just internet parody flouncing? Does anyone give the slightest shit?

Most importantly, is there any substance to the implied accusation that someone at JR has a problem with talking about LBGT+ issues? Common or garden internet slapfests are ten a penny and I can happily ignore them; fundamental issues of bigotry I can not. Hence the request for further information, help me out please Edge.

Maria - - Parent

Well, someone tried to write a summary in the comments on some of the posts, might not be completely unbiased but something like this:

"Basically it boils down to: Original Post about an insta channel featuring lgbtq+jugglers is met with support and a very vocal minority expressing their discomfort with what they see as "Not Juggling related" and "divisive" in harsh comments. Post is then deleted by admins. Someone posts another message asking for an explanation: this sparks a big discussion on inclusiveness, with, again, a very vocal minority who feels incredibly uncomfortable with the subject and troll around, baiting people. Gets a bit more heated. Pavel comes out, bans the pro-lgbtq side of the argument, and no one else, explaining that he only deleted the original post because "someone reported it and he has no time actually reading the posts". Due to very tame backlash, he starts banning around people questioning his methods and his motives, deletes his explanation, and the 230+ thread that sparked a genuine interesting global conversation on inclusiveness. He then proceeds to continue banning people who question his decisions (these people happen for the most part to be lgbtq+, go figure), while refusing every form of dialogue."

Tom Derrick - - Parent

Hasn't that place been a dumpster fire of sensible moderation from the get go? I seem to remember that's why the much more pleasant Juggling Home group got set up. I've not been a part of JR for quite some time now, seems like I've missed very little.

Ethan - - Parent

Hey so yeah. I'm the one who made the original post regarding an idea I had for an Instagram project for the LGBTQ+ juggling community. I linked to the Instagram I had created, and basically asked people's opinions on whether it was a good idea or not. It received an overwhelming amount of support. The rest of the story was summed up perfectly by Maria.

People were banned and got, rightfully, very upset. I was one of those who was banned. Myself and a few others started doing organized targeted protests. And yeah. Basically quite a lot of people left juggling rock. Fun times.

Little Paul - - Parent

Do you have a link to the insta account?

Ethan - - Parent

Yep! You can find it on Instagram @CirquePride and also now on Facebook @cirquepride.

Little Paul - - Parent

Thanks, not normally the sort of content I follow on IG, but I’ll keep an eye on it anyway :)

I was disappointed that the advertised lineup for the “circus” stage at Bristol Pride last weekend was entirely aerial acts (and we all know how I feel about yet-another-tortured-love-story-being-tangled-up-in-mums-old-curtains) Much like the cabaret stage was all drag acts.

Huge amounts of “could do better” there from a variety point of view, and hopefully things like your project will broaden the pool of acts events like that can pull from

Maria - - Parent

The Jugglingrock group description has been updated with new rules now:

""Made for in touch with jugglers around the world".

''International Juggling group''

Show us, what you can do!
Be aware of the latest juggling news!
Share your news...
Stay positive :)
learn how to juggle, following the advice of other jugglers!
To join the group, you need to answer simple questions.

If anyone of you has been blocked
it has own reasons:
posts not related to juggling!

Any kind of propaganda and popularization on topics:
--Fascism, nazism, nationalism etc. !
--Sexual communities or your sexual preferences
--Politic things!
--Drugs, alcohol, smoking!
--War and terrorism!
--any kind of violence!
-disrespectful communication or insults
-advertising with links to another websites
-spam, desinformation
-Invitations and advertisements of other groups, communities.
-Commercial Post(without notice to the administration)

Please think what you post!
Еhere are children in our community!
We are glad to see everyone, who loves juggling!
Here we do juggling!

Pavel Evsukevich"

Well, taken out of context, not wanting "sexual communities" mentioned on a juggling page seems to make sense. (I wouldn't like to see porn there...) However, we all know that this wasn't what this was about. Not discussing "your sexual preferences", well... I don't want details about what people like to do in bed, either, but again, that is not what was happening. I can also understand that they want the juggling group to be about juggling, I would have been fine with them deleting posts that truly didn't have anything to do with juggling, including if people said something like "I am gay and proud". I wouldn't have seen that as homophobic. But your post was about juggling. I don't see why anyone would report it, and if taking it down was a mistake they should have handled it better.

They are really deleting a lot right now, because people are still posting protests. I have only commented so far, am not banned yet. I kind of wonder where the line goes for discussing "sexual preferences". Would I be allowed to post a juggling video saying "Look, me and my boyfriend made a video!" That is telling people that I am hetero, right? Would it be different from saying "Look, me and my girlfriend made a video!"? I hope that both would be OK, but I can't be sure.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I wonder has there ever been a juggling porn video? Perhaps someone should make a (soft) gay juggling porn video and post it to Juggling Rock?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

There was a gay porn actor who was active on rec.juggling and shared a scene in which he juggled 5 balls before getting it on. I couldn't find it now straight away but with a little effort I'm sure you can find this clip / thread :p

Little Paul - - Parent

I remember that happening (IIRC it wasn't signposted as being porn, or even flagged up as nsfw - which caused a bit of a ruckus) and I spent some time last night trying to find it.

I came away from the experience dismayed at just how difficult it is to search for old rec.juggling posts these days. There really isn't a nice way to do it.

Clackpot mentioned the LaSalle twins, I don't *think* they were responsible for the video you mentioned, but I do remember them having some nude photos on their website.

Unfortunately, they had a flash based splash page for entering their website - so I can't get past the front page on the copy saved on archive.org... there's a limit to what I'm willing to do in the name of historical research - and installing flash is a step too far!

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

IIRC they were in a truly execrable juggling/porn short which, if I remember it correctly, went like this :-

Scene : A typical American suburban living room

  • LS1 enters, topless, and begins juggling 5 balls
  • LS2 enters
  • Eyes are made
  • Snogging intensifies
  • Pr0n!

I think I could probably write more of this stuff, I clearly have a knack for the complex narrative arc and intricate plots of saucy juggling videos.

Maria - - Parent

That would only justify their new rules. Better a very innocent juggling video with maybe a quick kiss between two people of the same gender. Something that nobody would object to if it was a man and a woman.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

The LaSalles (sp?). They were waaay better at juggling than porn, absolutely loved their show at BJC Derby.

Tom Derrick - - Parent

I remember being sent a video of an 11 ball flash many years ago, in which only 82% of the props were juggled.

I've also seen a clip of quite a talented chap doing a variation on chin rolls at waist height, but there's no way I'm looking for that while at work.

Little Paul - - Parent

I’m about 95% sure I remember who the 11 ball flash was...

I believe the club manipulation routine was “chip tanner” (Jamie Stroud) and there seem to be a couple of versions available online.

Mike Moore - - Parent

First name raises cars, last name has a stuffed tiger named Hobbes (but spelled differently).

The Void - - Parent

Off-topic: Orin, I've "marked this thread as read" 5 times now, and the 2 most recent messages are still showing as unread, both in the thread view and on the index. Let's see what happens after I post this...

On-topic: #DeleteFacebook

Orinoco - - Parent

Off: oh. I thought everything was going a bit too smoothly yesterday... should be working again now.

Also might have to turn off autolinking @ to Twitter seeing as all websites seem to use it now...

On: I can't remember whether I left or was banned from Juggling Rock. I think I just left. Good for those who have protested & made their views known but sadly there are 13k+ members of the group the majority of which will do nothing & therefore completely vindicating the mods in their eyes :(

The Void - - Parent

Marking now done, thanks.

david - - Parent

The lower “Mark all as read” link doesn’t and also returns a blank screen in my iPad. The upper link works.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Same here, I just hit "Mark all unread posts on this page (11) as read" and got a 500.

Orinoco - - Parent

Gah! I completely forgot that link existed!

Jamie - - Parent

Honestly, fuck Pavel Evsukevich and most (not all) Russian jugglers. Polluted by their politics.

Orinoco - - Parent

While I appreciate you & everyone else's frustration, that is too harsh. Discrimination against LGBTQ+ is spectacularly not limited to Russia. We have a few Russian friends here on the Edge. Ilia & Sergei are the most active & I've found them to be nothing but positive.

Imagine you are a young (insert ANY demographic here) who has nothing against (insert ANY minority here) but among your peers there are people who hold bigoted opinions. So for a break you go online to find someone to talk to & come across somewhere that looks interesting but you find a post that says, "Fuck (inserted demographic)". That person is likely to turn away & go back to their peers & get sucked into normalised discrimination.

Fight the idea, not the person.

Little Paul - - Parent

Are you /sure/ you don't want to implement a "like" button?

Jamie - - Parent

Yeah that post of mine was a bit heated and in the moment, sorry.

Jamie - - Parent

I actually tried to delete it like 2 minutes after I sent it, but there doesn't seem to be a delete option. Again, my bad and that was out of character of me.

Orinoco - - Parent

This is actually a perfect example of why I don't implement a delete or edit button.

I know you care & feel strongly about the issue. I appreciate that. I also now know that you realise your original post was too much, & you apologised. I respect that too. I wouldn't have known either of those things if you had deleted your post.

Little Paul - - Parent

I think we're all "polluted by our politics" - it's just that the political environment you inhabit is different...

Which I think I'm probably fine with!

We're all allowed to have different views of the world, and I think it's perfectly ok to disagree with someone else's views. I think it's also perfectly ok to have your views challenged, to challenge the views of others, or to expect your views to be challenged!

I'm not particularly ok with people shutting down the views of people they disagree with, or resorting to "us vs them" tribal generalisations... but I'm never going to be very effective at stopping people behaving like that.

All that said, I've never been a member of any juggling related facebook groups, so I don't really have a dog in this particular fight (at least, not outside the confines of this thread) so my opinions are worth exactly what you've paid for them! :)

Talking of opinions - I do have some pretty strong views about the modern day pride movement, and I'm sure if I expounded those views here the debate would get rather "lively" [2] - but there's a time and a place for that sort of conversation...

That time isn't here, and that place isn't now [3]

[1] Good heavens I certainly did a lot of that back in the old rec.juggling days. Some of which I'm not particularly proud of, as I was a little more robust and a little less respectful than I would be these days.

[2] And I would probably upset some people that I see as dear friends, and if I'm going to upset anyone I'd rather do it in person than over the internet!

[3] And I'm too old for that much lunchtime drinking on a school-day

Orinoco - - Parent

If I try to think of an LGBTQ+ friendly place in the juggling world I immediately think of Bungay. But then the Bungay crowd are friendly towards everything not just LGBTQ+ people. The attendance is made up of a higher portion of openly LGBTQ+ people than I experience in my normal white British male day to day life. I think this is because the people are attracted to the friendly nature as well as the friendly nature is a result of the people. A lot of the same crowd attend BJCs which I also consider a good inclusive festival, but it is certainly not on a par with Bungay & I can't articulate why I think that way.


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