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Stephen Meschke -

Mike Moore has provided some excellent source video for the Juggling Data Set. Check it out on juggling.tv:

http://juggling.tv/16844

or in the Juggling Data Set:

https://sites.google.com/view/jugglingdataset/juggling-tricks

If anyone is interested in being included in the Juggling Data Set, share some video! The Juggling Data Set helps other jugglers (and computers) learn more about juggling.

Mats1 - - Parent

The difficulties on those tricks are crazy? 771 more difficult than 6 balls? 753 more difficult than 7?! There's just absolutely no way that can be accurate.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I agree that 7b cascade is much harder than 753, despite my guess that most jugglers would be able to run 7b cascade longer. I see 771 and 6b to be similar difficulties.

Mats1 - - Parent

I think most jugglers will have practiced 7 at least 100x more than 753. If the practice was equal on each, 753 runs would be way longer.
771 maybe is as difficult as 6 ball 1/2 shower, but there's no way it is as hard as the fountain.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

These graphs show that, on average, jugglers can get more catches with 7-vs-753 and 6-vs-771. There aren't that many data points, but it looks like a trend to me. Because difficulty is subjective, I'll replace it with statistics from the Juggling Edge Records Database.

Mike Moore - - Parent

"Because difficulty is subjective, I'll replace it with statistics from the Juggling Edge Records Database."

One of my favourite take-homes from Thinking Fast and Slow is to be aware of when one answers an easier question than the one they mean to answer. The JERD gives an answer to some question, but it doesn't answer the question of relative difficulties.

Mats1 - - Parent

Sorry for this very slow reply, but I was in deepest Norfolk away from any internet or phone signal!

You cannot use number of catches as a judgement of difficulty. You must also include how much that trick is practiced. I would venture that 90%+ of people who can juggle 7 balls have spent more time practicing 7 balls than on any other pattern with less than 7 balls, for example.

Personally, I think if I had I spent the same time on 753 that I have on 7 balls, I would expect to be running it for *at least* several minutes, probably more. That is vs not even having quite reached 1 minute with 7 cascade. I've hardly practiced 753 in my life (probably a few hours or something) and already nearly got to the 100 catches milestone.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Your very slow reply has given me time to ponder the relative difficultly between these two tricks. I have increased the amount of time that I spend on 753, and I have continued to improve. Still, I find that 753 is much more difficult than 7 ball cascade.

For a little more perspective, how would you rank the difficulty of these tricks: 744, 753, 771, 77772, 777771?

Mats1 - - Parent

Easy -> Harder

744 - 753 - 771 - 77772 - 777771

And I think 777771 is easier than the 6 ball fountain.

Mike Moore - - Parent

My ranking:

744 - 771 - 77772 - 777771 ~= 753 ~= 6b fountain -------- 7b cascade

Reasoning: 3s tend to be pretty hard in siteswaps with relatively high numbers and consecutive same-height throws tend to be easier than not. That said, I don't think those factors come close to accounting for the seventh ball.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Wow! My difficulty ratings are quite different than your (and Mats1). I find base patterns (cascade and fountain in particular) to be much easier than siteswaps. I would rate the difficulty like this:

6b+ftn --> 744 --> 77772 --> 771 --> 7b+cas --> 7777771 --> 753

I also think that the step up in difficulty between these tricks is also roughly equal.

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