Threads tagged #passing

Search posts
Forum index

Viewing all threads tagged #passing.

 

Brook Roberts -

No, check out MY new ejuggle article.

Seriously though, I wrote an ejuggle article on some passing patterns.
It's at http://ezine.juggle.org/2015/12/14/passing-siteswaps-with-five-clubs/
I'm going to write some more.

So I'm quite interested in feedback, particularly from people who might actually keep reading these, and especially from people who might try these out. Both regarding style, format, and the sort of thing they would be interested in seeing in future articles.

I'm going to try and balance the difficulty of the articles, having some easier, some harder. For the avoidance of doubt, this is an 'easy' article, meaning that your juggling skill does not need to be very high to attempt the patterns. That doesn't mean you won't find it hard if you've never tried passing long siteswaps before, just that you might share your difficulties with a five club juggler who hasn't passed these things before. (the 7 club partner patterns are not so easy)

Diagrams made using the juggling edges lovely causal diagram editor, now with fewer bugs ;)

Please tell me if you actually try these out - it'd be nice to pretend people really do try things from the articles...

#causal #passing #iforgetifthisisthecorrectwaytoaddhashtagshere

Maria - - Parent

Cool. Will read again and watch some videos when I'm not at work.

You have an error in the Notwhy causal diagram.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Ah, the, er, deliberate mistake to check if people read it.

Thanks - I'll have to work out if I can actually edit articles after they are published!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Nice to see you are writing too :).

The Void - - Parent

After a cursory skim, I'd just like to say I appreciated the phrasing of "If you are comfortable with five club Whynot – why not try Notwhy?". :)

Brook Roberts - - Parent

I did resist the urge to make a much longer sentence involving whynotwhy as well :)

York Jugglers - - Parent

Good article, is really good to see more articles on passing, let me know if you write any more as I only look at that ezine thing when directed.

I think you should explain what a trelf is though (you do explain what a heff is (3 paragraphs after first using it) but I am not sure if straight self would immediately be recognised as a self returning to the hand that threw it - also you describe a heff as "(what passers call a 4 in siteswap)" I think jugglers call it a 4, passers might call it a 8).

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Trelf is an expression Brook is trying to popularise which is yet to become standard vernacular to my knowledge.

For the record I dislike it since spoken patterns including the word 'trelf' preceded or followed by 'self' don't roll off the tongue and for most purposes it is safe to assume a triple is a self thrown rather than a passed triple anyway.

Agree on heff comments

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Very nice Brook. Really appreciate someone writing some new passing stuff. I may even try out some of those longer period patterns too, since I have (possibly) never seen them before.

My main critique would be to find a better backdrop for the videos (it is a bit cluttered) and maybe include both 4 handed and prechac notation for all of the tricks (although again I would advocate 4 handed for all Asynch patterns). Other than that easy to follow and interesting subject to explore.

I look forward to the next article.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Noted on videos.
Yes, I should have included all siteswaps (although I think I did mostly?).
I agree on 4 handed ss, but think that is less accessible to people who don't know siteswap.

Maybe in future I'll include:
4 handed ss
Diagram
Words
Video or animation

And just leave out all prechac.

The patterns are from a workshop I have given twice. I invented the longer patterns, I don't know if someone else has independently. Interesting that you may now try them out - I seem to remember spending some time trying to convince you to put 5 club siteswaps (ignoring zaps) in your spreadsheet, and Aidan to put some in his book, as interesting easier patterns, and being rebuffed both times.
I suspect you could sight read everything except the 531534 business, which I found took a small bit of calibration.

Mats1 - - Parent

Siteswaps for patterns in future articles?

Brook Roberts - - Parent

As in, an explanation of passing siteswap? Or something else?

Mats1 - - Parent

Just the siteswap of each trick. It makes it much easier to understand.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

OK, noted. I was unsure what form to put this stuff in - between prechac, 4handed ss, causal diagrams, animation, using words and videos, there are quite a lot of ways of representing the same trick - I didn't want to use all of them.

Mats1 - - Parent

Oh and yes thanks for the article. Greatly look forward to more if you have the time and inclination!!!

Daniel Kelsall - - Parent

Nice article, UNL juggling club had fun trying a couple of the patterns out this week. I've only managed to get Parsnip down so far, but I'm eager to learn more next week.

It might be helpful in future articles if you give tips for remembering what each person should be doing. For example, Parsnip really clicked for me when a friend explained it's three passes with the left then 3 passes with the right etc.

Really looking forward to the next article!

Orinoco -

When you teach someone to pass, which end of the spectrum are you closer to?:

  1. Point out every under-spun/over-spun/long/short/wide/crossing etc. pass
  2. Just deal with it & let them iron their own mistakes out



#passing

This is a competition thread which ran from 4th Dec 2015 to 11th Dec 2015. View results.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

I want to click an option but find it almost impossible to do so.
If I'm teaching someone to pass, I merrily tell them it's time to move on whenever we get a short run, and head straight towards one count, whereupon they really just need to make sure the clubs go forward and up and we can run it.

If my partner who I can pass 9 clubs with is doing 7 club one-count/giving me 6 club 2 count for body throws, and they aren't perfect, then I tend to point out possibly a lot more things than they would like. And get frustrated that they don't!

I think passing body moves is probably the best example of this. If someone is learning shoulder throws with me, I'm a huge fan of telling them to just try and run it once they've landed like two - I'll catch everything and not complain - because it lets them get a feel for the trick. But if they're feeding me, they better not be lazy just because they're passing 6 club 2-count! (yes I know my stupid albert combo pass was 3 feet to the right and 1 1/2 spins over, but your pass was a little low, could you fix it please :) )


I think it's also really useful to say how much feedback you want. Some people I know will say 'no feedback yet', and then in a few minutes when they've sorted out the pattern, request feedback. Ideally I would be giving them the right amount of feedback, but I often given too much or too little, so feedback feedback is useful, and is conveying how much spare capacity you have at your end of the pattern.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yes, I think there's value in saying how much feedback you want. When I do a pattern for the first time, it normally takes me a few runs to get my hands to automatically make the correct types of throws before I can start dealing with accuracy issues.

"Give me a few runs to get this sorted"

Orinoco - - Parent

Saying how much feedback you want up front is a good plan if you know what is going to be useful to you, but will a newbie really know? I think there is a lot of pressure to take feedback even when it is not helpful. I think there is a point where a newbie becomes ready for feedback but it takes a while to get to it. In the face of a battle-scarred veteran passer I think most virgin passers will panic & say, "Ooh, constructive criticism, that's good. Honesty, that's good too. I'll have lots of that please." I've seen poor newbies battered by a catalogue of errors way beyond their current ability to correct. I've never asked anyone I've taught how much feedback they want. Probably arrogance on my part because I think I know best?

I'm definitely closer to option 2. I find that if you take away the pressure to make perfect passes the pupil improves much more rapidly. A lot of the people I teach to pass haven't got a very solid cascade yet. I'm a strong believer that learning to pass as soon as possible is a good thing. I really do it to give them a bit of variety to their practice so they don't get bored of drilling the cascade on their own (which is apparently a problem for some other people), so I don't care what their passes are like, I'm sneakily trying to get them to do more self throws.

Richard Loxley - - Parent

Ah, I missed the idea that this was complete beginners at passing. Since everyone I know is "still learning", even after several years, that's what I'd assumed!

For complete beginners, I think if I'm capable of catching the passes, I'd just keep quiet and let them improve. If I can't catch them, then I'll wait until I've noticed a pattern to what they're doing wrong, then suggest a change there.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Yes, I agree, I was talking in general. For complete beginners, none, or really basic, one comment.

The Void - - Parent

1.5 Give them enough feedback to work on. But don't overload them with too much to think about.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'm assuming this is assuming there's a big skill asymmetry between me and the other person. If so, I deal with whatever they throw at me until the variability in their throws starts to tighten up. At that point, I think they're ready for feedback.

That said, normally the feedback (for a new passer, anyway) is "okay, good, let's change the count."

Mike Moore - - Parent

Eesh, a triple post, but I want to say this anyway: I get bored when someone throws me perfect passes!

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm probably somewhere in the middle of those two options. I'll deal with anything that's within arms reach, if it's not in arms reach I'll keep sending good, on-time passes until I can recover the drop. I try to give encouraging feedback during the run ("nice!, that's it! more like that!")

But I'll save more detailed feedback at the end of a run if there's a consistent problem (eg, "those passes got longer as they went on" or "you're consistently sending half a spin too much")

Oh, and because I'm British, I'll spend as much time apologising for not being able to catch everything...

However, if I'm passing with an experienced passer[1] and trying to improve my throws (which given that I pass about once a year these days, leaves quite a lot of room for improvement) then I tend to criticise my own throws and actively seek detailed corrective advice.

[1] which basically means Mamph

emilyw - - Parent

3. Pick one thing they would get most benefit from working on. Tell them about that one thing. Then point out every pass where they get that thing RIGHT.

Also teach them to look through the pattern so they can see more easily for themselves what's going wrong.

Richard Loxley - - Parent

Right in the middle of the two.

I don't point out mistakes unless at least half their throws have the same mistake, in which case I'll point it out during the next pause.

Maria - - Parent

I think I'm closer to option 2. Definitely not commenting on every pass, but after a drop I might say something like "Okay, good, but many of your passes are a bit short. Do you think that you can make them a bit longer?" or "Did you notice that I got one of your passes to the wrong hand?". The second more to see if they have learned to see my cathces than to correct something that happened once...

It depends a bit on how much I think they are able to fix too, if it looks like the pattern is very difficult to them or I know they don't really have a solid cascade yet I'll probably give less feedback, at least as long at it's good enough to not mess up my passes to them.

Not that I have taught many people to pass yet, very few, and only like 3-4 of them had never tried any passing at all before.

Like Orin I think learning to pass soon is a good thing, and of course, since I think passing is the best kind of juggling I want every new juggler to learn and have fun with passing. Sometimes I try to teach someone 5 clubs 1-count before they have even learned to juggle...

EricS - - Parent

The first few rounds, I usually don't say much. I stress them making eye contact, though, and watching their own clubs less. If they do that, they get some sense of the corrections I'm making (reaching out to snag their outside pass, moving to avoid their inside pass, reaching for short or long passes, etc,). I tell them not to worry about it, just get used to passing. Once they get comfortable letting the club go like that, then I give them feedback to work on their passing.

When I learned, I was told (and I teach) that the responsibility for the pass is with the passer, but once the pass leaves your hand, there is nothing else you could do; you can only fix your next pass.

Marvin - - Parent

This poll has now ended. The results are:

  1.   Point out every under-spun/over-spun/long/short/wide/crossing etc. pass (1 vote)
  2.   Just deal with it & let them iron their own mistakes out (11 votes)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Wow, that was a one sided poll!

I haven't really followed much of the discussion, but perhaps I'll read some now that I figure that I am the only one who voted for option one.

I am just closer to that end of the spectrum, not at all pointing out EVERY flaw, mostly focussing on one at a time. Starting with distance, then width, and only later spin. And not just correcting passes, also receiving, selfs, body position, etc. Just small bits at a time.
Of course there is a lot of fast progress at the very beginning even without my interruption, and the first few minutes it might be more important to provide for motivation instead of critique. However, I think anything goes better when you are aware of what goes on. And there is so much new stuff going on at once, that it might help if I shift your focus to a specific aspect, especially since I can compensate for any errors that follow from correcting something simple like a tongue out of mouth.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Well, it's a bit tricky, since hopefully most of us would pick something inbetween the two! Also, I changed my vote when Orinoco clarifed he was talking about real beginner passes, rather than just teaching someone, or passing with someone of comparable ability.

Normally when I teach complete beginners, I like to excite them by getting them to power through quite a few patterns. I like their first experience of passing to be exciting rather than me badgering them about technique (plenty of time for that later ;) )

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Not too long after posting this, I ended up passing with a relative beginner (managed in the end 6 passes of 3count).

I do indeed correct throws that are off, but mostly they are too inconsistent to point out specific flaws!

7b_wizard -

#logthread

7b_wizard - - Parent

#logthread @ Mike Moore .. 6 c 5b-blind .. Wow! .. especially that juggled one, wow! .. Nirvana's just one step ahead for you now.

Mike Moore - - Parent

It's amazing what having a deadline can do! I've been able to flash 5b blind for a while, and have decided it's time to work up to a qualify.

7b_wizard - - Parent

#logthred @ JackJuggles .. Congrats on your nice breakthrough with 5 yesterday! .. "great session" .. "felt like average" .. "broke sound-barrier 50 catches" .. "lovely goal achieved" .. sound really nice & worthwhile envying a lot :o) [ <-- that's with round nose btw (not 'scream')]

7b_wizard - - Parent

@ Stephen - [ logentry, fitness plan

Impressingly elaborated and thought through. I have some ad hoc feedback and critique to offer:

- Meals, nutrition are to a degree individually different.

- How do you make sure, what makes you conclude that the "Strength"-part, the workout goes right into your juggling skills?
    Scooping well for example is one major aspect in getting your patterns smooth and stable, so I believe
    those small and big muscles that twist ulna and radius (of the forearm) around one another
    are important for juggling smoothly and stable (and without exhausting yourself in them becoming
    tensed). My credo for those is, that using somewhat heavier balls would train these best.
    Also, for enduring, it seems crucial to me, to have sudden ``explosive´´ bail-out-skills out of plan, for
    unstable moments in a running juggle, when correcting and recovering back into stable pattern. You then
    have to do a few throws from awkward ball positions in space.
    Also, for finetuning, for walking that thin line of a snapped-in pattern, having big and strong muscles
    doesn't seem to be the main thing to me.
    So, why is juggling cardio and makes extra cardio unnecessary, while strength needs extra training -
    doesn't juggling naturally just the same provide for muscle-strength exactly where it's needed, .. without
    extra training?
    [ I'm aware this is highly disputable, as many seem to approach juggling by strength. ]

- Do I get you right, that you think, stretching at the end of a stint is the right time for it; or is your list not chronologic?

- I, B.: intersection of skill and fitness is greatest possible ability. Also agility?

- I like the idea of jumping + juggling. Cool.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Just to be clear, I am making a video tutorial for the 2016 IJA video tutorial contest. The log entry is an outline for that video.

Nutrition is a big part of life. I only want to emphasize how important nutrition is for optimal training, and briefly go over a couple common mistakes like:
1. Eating sugar for energy during a long training session (better to eat complex carbs 2+ hours before)
2. If you plan a big training session, plan a recovery meal.

Strength does make juggling easier. Having a strong lower body is really helpful for 7b cascade, both during launches and recovering from a bad throw.

Juggling isn't strength training. Strength training occurs at high resistance with low repetition.

The list is not ordered. I do think that jugglers should warm up with dynamic movements, and do static stretches after training.

7b_wizard - - Parent

#logthread - @ Guili (struggling with 7b flashes) - starting to see a pattern

I have another idea: A big problem at that stage you're at right now, can be (dunno, if applies for you):

- throwing the last two-three throws very high -

.. this takes a lot of effort and long stretched beats .. --> you get in debt of time and you'll be late on catching ( or rethrowing ) the early balls.
I got over that timing issue by thinking of the next (re)throws, by thinking, there were more throws to do, and by not putting all my energy into "finishing" the flash with (way too) ``high enough´´ throws, but doing also those on good normal height and sparing energy for going on in hopefully a rhythm.
(( _ But this happens only when one launches on somewhat different heights, like, starting a bit lower, or when trying to gain time with higher last throws. Not, when one tries to launch all balls on a same height and in a stable beat (then having to cope with different weights and thrusts in full hands emptying ball by ball). _ So I don't know if it applies for you. _ ))

Other hints for flashing are:

- throwing a bit more from the middle, -

.. ``away´´ up from a vertical center line, will reduce the chance for balls \trajectories interfering --> you need less time for aiming or checking just thrown trajectories before throwing the next ball. ( just "up, slightly away from the middle", and nothing will happen up there that needs any special attention except always aiming this current now throw well )

Or being aware of a) spacing between the balls, b) timing of hand's movement, catch- and throw-moments, c) the alignment of the trajectories like all on a pearl chain.
Also overall geometry of the pattern \of your throws respectively, like is it wide enough, is it well in the front plane, is it symmetric as should.
.. being aware of all of such major \crucial properties of a pattern, then explicitly working on getting rid of any of those when bad.

Hope, this wasn' too much in one go. cheers and be the goddesses of flashing with you :oD

Guili - - Parent

Hi there 7b_wizard! Hope, this wasn' too much in one go haha, it was! but thanks for that!
i think i'm having EVERY problem you've described..haha!
you know, just out of instinct these days I was trying to make the pattern wider, like you said. It makes it easier for the balls to get away from your grasp, but it's truth you avoid them crashing into each other.
also, like you said, i'm having problems with the last throws. it's like i get nervous because the first throws are allready coming back, right? so you wanna make it quick and every ball flyes in a different direction...
so, how long did it take you to master it?
anyway.. i'm really stubborn, so i will not stop. some day you'll se my "i did it!" post too ;)
thanks for all the advice!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yah, great! .. also be aware, that any problem, any bad property of pattern \posture \ado, that you detect while trying 7b, you can train just that issue with 5b more effectively, like, as preparation or when warming up anyway.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. or amidst practise, as soon as you notice. ( It's fun and feelgood and makes you confident and motivates to get a 5b cascade variation down well - watch Daniel's most recent video!!! http://juggling.tv/16767 )

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thanks for sharing this, I'm glad it's relevant already :)

Guili - - Parent

great video daniel! lot of control!
gonna try those moves ;)

Guili - - Parent

yeah, i've been working with 3,4 & 5 balls FOR the 7b, and i can see it's usefull.
today i tried throwing the balls "more from the center" like you told me, and it really made it easier! lot less crashes...
got a 7-catches round! :-D
really motivated for tomorrow!

7b_wizard - - Parent

@ Daniel - hey, 1b 02, 25 c - awesome! .. must have been hard for you as a juggler to not give in to the urge, a reflex to throw, flourish or active it. I couldn't do it without at least five mins of meditating before an' I'd still be biting my teeth °r'r'r'aaaangnrghhH°. Thanks for this very helpful coming-down exercise!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I understand your sarcasm, it's not a hard trick usually.. But I would like to get some recognition for it as a speedjuggler, because I did those 25 cycles (I don't count the 0 as a catch) in just under 3 seconds!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Wow! [honestly] That. is. sooo. fast! .. I bet it's below the speed resolution of the human eye.

7b_wizard - - Parent

[ hooking in there: https://www.jugglingedge.com/log.php?LogDate=2018-05-07&UserID=885 .. "absolute beginner passing" ]

Maria - I usually start with passing the first ball

Oh, yeah! .. Makes a lot of sense and solves many problems: a first pass is done, to start with; the rhythm then can orient on the incoming pass; the next pass can be prepared by - as you say - in an #n-beat or by countdown; the next pass can be a ``copy´´ of the first done one.

start with 5-ball 1-count, so they don't have to catch their own throws.

°Ouffh° .. wait, .. "5 ball" so far makes sense to me, another level down ( I might even have to start with 1 ball passing haha ), One has got 3 balls and one's got only 2 balls, which sounds a lot easier so far. Now, "1-count" and "not catch own throws", .. sounds like feeder with 2 balls at hands feeds a shower to feedee, I read after thinking it through a lot lol. Okay, got it.
Guess, for non-passers and beginners, first doing a few test-passes to where partner's hand exactly is in space, on different heights too, would be a good idea.

So, in what I said, ..

I'm a flop at passing - too many dimensions too many it seems to me. means, ..
a) __ I have to watch the pupil's \partner's cascade and rhythm, kind'a leaving my own juggle ``in the lurch´´ or doing it automized and peripherally viewed only, but the different rhythms and spread focus bring me out.
b) __ It's also like like I'm ``superveying´´ two cascades, 2 * 3 balls, which one of I'm not doing myself, so I lose conrol over it all.
c) __ Then, my throw has to fit into where and when, at which beat, the partner will get their gap ( I'm currently having that issue in 5b-°753°, trying to fill the gap thrown by the 7 with a well timed 3 ona right low height .. even without a partner lol ).

.. I reckon, I have to find ways to strictly stick to my own juggling, throwing passes, catching passes, being well done (well aimed and ~timed), then indeed rely on all I do will fit (or not) into partner's juggle. First focus on my own stuff, to strat with, later, much then maybe have an eye on partner's timing then too.

However, that's two very helpful hints sparing me all that "watch and find into partner's rhythm" before even having passed any ball, and, yeah, obviously breaking it down to less balls when it's a mess.

Thanks!! :o)

7b_wizard - - Parent

( * edit: "later, much then maybe" = "later, much later then maybe" )

.. and also I fancy simply doing single takeouts, grasping a ball out of and fitting a throw back into running pattern, would be an absolute beginners' first exercise to passing, to doing together on running pattern.

Maria - - Parent

Pretty much, yeah. Just decide for example that "every fourth throw is a pass", start with the first pass, do 3 throws in a regular cascade, pass again, do 3 "self" throws, repeat. You are both passing at the same time, no need to think about when the partner will get a "gap", since they are passing too the gap will be there. You do need to keep the same rhythm, though. (Well, at least for beginner patterns...)

Shower? No, nothing "shower"-like in the 5-object 1-count.

To clarify, this is pretty much the way I teach an absolute beginner to pass: http://passingpedagogy.com
"Exercise 3" is the 5-object 1-count, though illustrated with clubs in the animation. Try to keep it slow, I'd do higher throws than the animation suggests. I would also say that you want to react a bit earlier than the stick figures, think of a cascade, make the next throw when the previous one is at its highest point. With balls you'd like to stand a bit closer together.

It's way easier to juggle 5, 6 or 7 objects with 4 hands than with 2! ;) 5-ball 1-count might even be easier than a 3-ball cascade (it was for my colleague when she learned last year, but of course, she had an experienced passer to practise with).

Watching your partners rhythm is usually a good thing. The 5-object 1-count kind of eliminates the need for that, since you are not throwing at the same time but just responding to your partner's passes. The goal should be to get an even rhythm in the juggling, but it is not necessary for that pattern to work. Just like in 3b cascade, there is only one more object than hands, so if the throws have different heights and different dwell times, it will still work.
For patterns with 6 objects or more on the other hand... Definitely a good thing to watch your partner's rhythm. In the beginning you can let the more experienced passer adjust their rhythm to the one that the less experienced juggler keeps.

Good luck, I hope you get more opportunities to improve your passing!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Pretty much .. .. .. beginner patterns...)

Sounds sooo trivial and easy when you describe it (( but aren't you forgetting, that the statistical chance for a random throw to land where it should is near 0, let alone on top of that in the right moment :o/ .. but, yeah, no - I was jus' jokin' --> that's why we're "jugglers" after all )).
I really like being (or going for being) synched right from the first throw being a pass.

Exercise 3 .. Ah, I see. Looks easy enough that I should get that. [bookmarked it]

Thanks for coaching! :o)

[ #passing #5obj1count #5objNCount #coachingZone ]

Maria - - Parent

Well, actually you want to keep the same rhythm in most patterns, but it doesn't have to mean that you throw at the same time. Me and my regular passing partner mostly do "4-handed siteswaps" where the throw order is my right hand, his right hand, my left hand, his left hand...
There are, however, patterns where for example one juggler does 3 throws in the same time that the other juggler does 4. So, different rhythms, byt they have to match anyway (tricky stuff, haven't done much of that).

No problem! :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

@Terix - https://www.jugglingedge.com/log.php?LogDate=2018-10-24&UserID=976

Hey! .. you're just doubting some. Normal, when you put a lot of energy into sth hard.

My all shows were shit (but this I have known already before)

What did your audience think about your shows, right?! .. You're just painting black.

Then, .. But I am now too old to became a professional juggler

Bullshit. Think of all the lifetime, you have ahead! .. Youth is only, say 5yo to ~20yo = 15 years. Now How many times fifteen years are still ahead of you! Ha!

So, chin up! & three cheers and a tiger! [ lol, looked that up in a dico XoD ]

7b_wizard - - Parent

oh .. forgot, .. one more thing .. you don't have to be a master of juggling, not have to be skilled like a shaolin, be a numbers monster, but you can have specialities that aren't strictly speaking ``mainstream´´. Or also, you can entertain or present, the way, that only you with your personality can do. Carrying fun or devotion, passion, something special to the people is the more important part, I reckon.

Terix - - Parent

Thank you, juggling wizard, for your long comments, I really appreciate that you have read all my training log and tried to give me sth positive. I think you are right, but I can´t accept it fully because my dream was always to be this number monster :D and juggler that is the best, but you are right - what does it mean to be the best?
Everyone can be the best in their own way

Thank you

Terix - - Parent

And about shows, there were people, who were expecting much more from me and were disappointed, and on the other side there were people who really liked my shows and gave me standing ovations, but I have to think about these who were disappointed, I feel like I have deceived them

7b_wizard - - Parent

@ Jamie - https://www.jugglingedge.com/log.php?LogDate=2019-10-08&UserID=885 (your comment)

It's awesome how you are able to practice for so long. I tucker out after an hour usually :(

Well, that's a big topic as it concerns a major part of lifetime ( on a day and every day and overall ).

.) - Knowing in advance that my session and stints will take hours, I won't reasonably power out and all the time "go for it", pumping, exhausting myself, only when I feel 'fresh', fit, when I feel like sth goes.

.) - Generally I believe, juggling is mainly a (sportive) skill ( for the art in the end ), not a force act, not a work out sport. The 'finished' pattern is easy, fluent, smooth, effortless, maybe nimble, maybe soft.

    It's not like biking up the mountains, not like weight-lifting or iron-man, not like any power sport that stays muscle-intense also with mastership, where technique helps a lot, but in the end doesn't do the job and one will have to bite ever again.

    Juggling is often like that too .. when you're still learning .. you do in tensed ways, needing to keep a pattern up somehow, then to hold it up for a while, before you can seize its rhythm, timing, precise automized aiming an' all, <before you found the good ratios, your height an' all. But in the end it should flow 'like nothing'.

    So my conclusion is, that whenever it's hard, you're doing sth wrong!? And that means, you can relax(!) instead of forcing harder, and it'll be a right way to go. Just like in martial arts they say "be like the water". At least, that's my personal approach to it all these last years ( it wasn't always like this, but formerly did with burning muscles, tensed, forcing, but also for hours ).

.) - Then, there's will, what I want, and what I've taken the decision(!) to do - so there's kind of no alternative to succeeding in what I started, what believing I can achieve. So when it becomes tedious and I'm getting nowhere, I say to myself, all I have to do is to get it (or drop dead trying), and I can hook it off and proceed. And again, knowing that in the end, it sould be easy, simple, helps in reflecting and analyzing what to change and how to try differently to get there.

And last not least, Hey, people work from nine to five, so .. ;oD

Brook Roberts -

At #CamCircus at the weekend I, Andy and Becky did some good passing. The last thing we did was based on a pattern called Gute Frage (Good question in English, as in: what's that pattern called?).

The base pattern, Gute Frage, is a very nice but easy pattern. You should try it! A feeds B and C on pass-pass-self. B passes to A on pass-pass-self. C passes to B on 3-count. (So the first pass is a triangle pass, and you don't receive to the person you throw to).


3b 3b 3 3b 3b 3
3c 3a 3 3c 3a 3
3a 3 3 3a 3 3


To make it more interesting, you can rotate who feeds. This is even nicer! We did it so after two rounds (so six beats) you take on the role of the person on your left. One round would look like (the diagram might look scary - probably it's easier to just use the description - it's much easier than you might think!) We got a few rounds of this.


3b 3b 3 3b 3b 3 3b 3 3 3b 3 3 3b 3c 3 3b 3c 3
3c 3a 3 3c 3a 3 3c 3c 3 3c 3c 3 3c 3 3 3c 3 3
3a 3 3 3a 3 3 3a 3b 3 3a 3b 3 3a 3a 3 3a 3a 3


So far so good. We then made it much harder, by doing it 'from Hell'. This is where you throw every 5th throw as a double. It's much harder than it might seem! You can apply this to any pattern that is only made up of 3's and 3p's. Try it in 4-count, or for more of a challenge, in countdown!

So Gute Frage with rotating feeder is period 18. Since 5 is coprime, doing Gute Frage from Hell is period 90! I won't post the causal diagram for that :P

We managed about 20 throws.

Brook

P.S. Does this sort of stuff interest any edgizens in particular?

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Well, it looked fine in preview mode. Orinoco?

Orinoco - - Parent

What exactly is broken? I'm seeing two causal diagrams that look fine to me.

Maria - - Parent

I don't see any causal diagrams, but I have not seen them here earlier either so it might be my settings. I did check the "Render Causal diagrams" box though. Anything else I need to do?

emilyw - - Parent

Nope I can't see them either and I also have the setting turned on.

Little Paul - - Parent

I've just ticked the box and the causal diagrams appeared.

Perhaps try force refreshing the page?

Maria - - Parent

Oh... That actually worked! I didn't think it would, because I changed that setting weeks ago.

Okay, I see two cousal diagrams now, they both look correct.

Maria - - Parent

...and I know it's spelled causal diagrams. :)

mike.armstrong - - Parent

...but my brain always reads casual diagrams

emilyw - - Parent

That made little sense to me, but I tried it anyway and this happened:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/r3mEDgK12Q3IMgEjEngVn_Mpntg-SaDNEy7dil1dOOWC=w724-h207-p-no

Brook Roberts - - Parent

That's what I am seeing too.

Orinoco - - Parent

I still think you have an old version of causals.js, let's deal with this over here.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

The top causal diagram's top row is for me very very long. It says
A:

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Ha, I should have guessed that wouldn't post properly.
I have to go now, but the lines that have 3b in get confused and don't render properly on firefox or chrome.

emilyw - - Parent

P.S. Does this sort of stuff interest any edgizens in particular?

yes! It's almost like having Aidan back.

I feel that you or Becky need to decide which of you will rename yourselves to Chris.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Well you might get more then in the future :)

I was actually just saying that with Andy, Brook, Caspar, Danny, Ed, the set of UK passers that I pass with does quite well for example names!

Also, #passing.

emilyw - - Parent

If you're all at BJC then you should meet up with Fred Gerstner, Graham, HelenS, Ian from Manchester, Jamie Fletcher, and no doubt some other people I don't know, and break some kind of strange passing world record.

Maria - - Parent

Nice! I have tried something similar, but in 2-count/4-count. One of the first passing patterns I tried actually. Then we changed feeder after one round, but it makes sense to change after two rounds for an ambidextrous pattern.

I suppose it doesn't really matter, but did I read it correct if I say that the triangle passes are done to the person on your right?

I think the "from hell" thing on this pattern might be a bit too difficult for me though. :)

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Yes, that is what we did, although you're welcome to try it the other way - it shouldn't make much difference since you end up doing the inside and outside triangle passes regardless.

Mïark - - Parent

Passing is always interesting. I didn't know this pattern had a name, but then I learnt it from Ewan (or Luke before he went to Germany) many, many years ago, so maybe it didn't have a name then or perhaps Andy had taught them too, but didn't want to confuse them with germanic nomenclature. (Also works with 4 count 2 count feed but is less interesting.)

I stopped doing from Hell patterns after doing countdown-countdown from Hell, which took far too long.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

What is countdown-countdown? 4-3-2-1-2-3-2-1-2-1-2-3-2-1-2-3-count would be my guess... If so I've never tried it, but I will! I've recently been doing some 8 club countdowns so this would seem like a nice addition to mix things up :)

Mïark - - Parent

Yes, but for some reason starting at 5 count (maybe just to make it longer).

^Tom_ - - Parent

There's always a debate about how many 1s to do in the middle. I think I've done 3 1s most frequently.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Just spent several minutes determining whether "I, Andy and Becky..." was grammatically correct. I think I'm going to allow it this time.

On a more passing note of interest; I always knew this pattern as Tarim's triangle, although he denies having anything to do with it and accredits it to feeding the fish (or at least they were the first he saw do it). Never heard of it as Gute Frage, although I have heard this mentioned as the name of a pattern.

Done the feed rotation before but have no interested in 'from hell-ing' it. Nice to know there are still geekier passers than me out there though (Or at least as geeky... I am still categorising my list of 427 period 7 patterns with zaps after all)

^Tom_ - - Parent

I assume there was going to be a weekend II coming up, and that Andy and Becky have been passing at weekend I. I don't understand why the ladder diagrams appears to be showing 3* hands. I can only assume that there's a hybrid 2 hands vs 1 hand notation for some 2 handed pattern.

*Or will be once I work out the causal diagram problem.

Orinoco -

These patterns just came up in ##juggling & I'd like to see the causals

756257562575625

756757567575675

756667566675666

#passing

Orinoco -

Last night was excellent at #TWJC as we were joined by a large contingent from #HCC which swelled our ranks considerably. As we will be imminently moving to a new hall & will need to offload a lot of our excess stuff (watch out for an inventory soon) it was commented that, "the vultures were circling".

Andy brought along a Jacob's Ladder & tasked us to hold one end then pull it up & catch it in a neat stack which was a nice kendamaesqe challenge. Andy said he has managed to pull it off once. I came pretty close. Simon managed it on his 3rd attempt. & his fifth. Andy was also bemusing people with the cork trick where you hold a cork in between your thumb & the knuckle of your index finger in each hand then have to pull them apart using the tips of your thumb & index fingers. I broke out a trick I learnt from a magician at a Christmas party when I was about 8 that has served me well for many years where you hold your hands palms together & hold a stick on top with your thumbs, then without letting go or crossing your arms you use a 'magic twist' to finish with your tumbs underneath the stick. I enjoyed taunting the otherwise highly coordinated jugglers who couldn't work it out.

Then Andy showed me another trick that worked on pretty much the same principle & I couldn't work it out.

We re-worked out the 4 club zap zap zip pattern that we picked up at BJC2012. Simon has discovered an interest in siteswaps & has even descended to the point where he pulled out a piece of paper with a load of numbers that he was working on. One was 654 [SIC] so there is hope for him yet.

Thank you Hastings for a great night, see you on Friday!

The Void - - Parent

On Monday at #altern8 , I managed a couple of your tricks for the first time. https://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24.msg3497.html#msg3497

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Good to see people are still working on some of the patterns from the Zaps workshop I ran at BJC.

654 was actually the second pattern in that workshop (although I refrained from mentioning siteswap at the time to maintain interest from the oldies!)

James

^Tom_ - - Parent

I missed the workshop, but I did see a couple of people passing zap zap zip [or (4-1.5)p(4-1.5)p1] at BJC. Last week, as my finger's not been 100% (and so I wanted to avoid higher throws), Alex and I tried 552 as well as trying 55244 with the 4s as flips. That seemed much trickier, but then it was time to home.

Any other zap patterns worth trying other than 5 and 645? I think I tried 756 a few years ago. Might be time to try it again.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

825 and 852 are both very doable
67525 and 75625 I would also recommend with 5 clubs

With 6 clubs 756, 75756 are the easiest.

When you have learnt those come back and I will find you some more!

Orinoco - - Parent

For the causal enthusiasts...


825825



852852



6752567525



7562575625



756756



7575675756


#causals #passing

mike.armstrong - - Parent

I had to double take when I read "casual enthusiast" there!
This may also be a test of posting from my (android) phone...

mtb - - Parent

Why are some of those lines going backwards?

I suspect I have not come across this notation method before....

Orinoco - - Parent

The arrows represent causes of throws not throws. A cause being a prop hurtling toward that hand on a beat.

In 4 hand siteswap a 2 represents a zip/hand across/1 in vanilla siteswap. To do a zip the hand you will be zipping into needs to be empty, which means that you need to have thrown whatever it was holding the beat before hence the backwards arrow.

mtb - - Parent


Tobias - - Parent

855 and 885 are also fun - splitting your attention between the heffs up there and the zaps down there can be challenging.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Yes both fun, but both very difficult and hence left off my original list. Incidentaly I find the 7 club pattern 885 easier than the 6 club 855.

If you can find a couple of good passers, 855 feeding 2 885's is excellent!

Orinoco -

For anyone who would like the Causal diagrams for Aidan's piece on Chocolate Bars (you'll need to have render causal diagrams checked under your settings):

The Chocolate Box

3b 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3 3 3b 3 3
3a 3c 3 3 3c 3e 3 3 3e 3a 3 3
3 3b 3 3 3b 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3
3 3 3e 3a 3 3 3a 3c 3 3 3c 3e
3 3 3d 3 3 3b 3 3 3b 3 3 3d


The Low Fat Chocolate Box

3b 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3 3 3b 3 3
3a 3c 3 3 3c 3c 3 3 3c 3a 3 3
3 3b 3d 3 3b 3b 3 3d 3b 3 3d 3d
3 3 3c 3a 3 3 3a 3c 3 3 3c 3c


Suburban Terror Feed
(so not the looking the wrong way feed then...)

3b 3b 3 3
3a 3a 3c 3c
3 3 3b 3b


Six Person Double Chocolate Box

3b 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3 3 3b 3 3
3a 3c 3c 3 3c 3e 3 3 3e 3a 3 3c
3 3b 3b 3f 3b 3 3f 3d 3 3 3d 3b
3 3e 3e 3a 3e 3 3a 3c 3 3 3c 3e
3f 3d 3d 3 3d 3b 3 3 3b 3f 3 3d
3e 3 3 3c 3 3 3c 3 3 3e 3 3


Seven Person Double Chocolate Box

3b 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3 3 3b 3 3
3a 3c 3 3 3c 3e 3 3 3e 3a 3 3
3d 3b 3 3f 3b 3 3f 3d 3 3d 3d 3
3c 3e 3e 3a 3e 3g 3a 3c 3g 3c 3c 3e
3 3d 3d 3 3d 3b 3 3f 3b 3 3f 3d
3 3 3g 3c 3 3 3c 3e 3 3 3e 3g
3 3 3f 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3 3 3f


Eight Person Double Chocolate Box

3b 3 3 3d 3 3 3d 3 3 3b 3 3
3a 3c 3 3 3c 3e 3 3 3e 3a 3 3
3f 3b 3 3h 3b 3 3h 3d 3 3f 3d 3
3 3 3e 3a 3 3 3a 3c 3 3 3c 3e
3 3f 3d 3 3f 3b 3 3h 3b 3 3h 3d
3c 3e 3 3 3e 3g 3 3 3g 3c 3 3
3 3 3h 3 3 3f 3 3 3f 3 3 3h
3 3 3g 3c 3 3 3c 3e 3 3 3e 3g


#passing #ezine

Kelhoon - - Parent

I just see a huge white box with one little black letter A in it.  What am I supposed to see ?

Orinoco - - Parent

You should see a load of causal diagrams. You're on FF right? It's working for me in FF 3.5.5 at the moment. Could you please email me a screen shot or somesuch of what you are seeing?

Kelhoon - - Parent

FF 10.0.1

I did a right-click view image and it is exactly as I described, a large white rectangle with a small black letter "A" near the top left corner.

Little Paul - - Parent

It's working fine for me in FF 10.0.2 (Linux) and I wouldn't have thought there were that many differences?

Little Paul - - Parent

Thinking about it, it's a javascript/html5/canvas widgety thing - so when it fails do you get anything in the error console? They seem to have hidden the menu option for the error console in recent versions, but "Ctrl-Shift-J" still works.

Hit clear then reload the page, see if you get anything useful coming up?

Kelhoon - - Parent

3 errors in the CSS, but, the reload of the tab shows me a lovely crissy crossy diagram, weird a reload didn't fix it yesterday though.

Orinoco - - Parent

Just tried to download & install the latest version to try & work out what is going on. I thought I'd left it all behind but the Opera zealotry just came flooding right back!

At a guess from what you describe though, I think you are having the same problem that Void had. You have an old version of siteswap.js cached which is picking up the 3b & converting it into a siteswap link. If you clear that & pick up the new version all should hopefully work as expected.

Orinoco -

There's a new option under settings for rendering causal diagrams which provided you are using a capable browser will convert:

<span class="CausalDiagram">
3p 3 3 3p 3 3
3p 3 3 3p 3 3
</span>

into:


3p 3 3 3p 3 3
3p 3 3 3p 3 3


Yay!

It accepts lines of Prechac notation (one line per juggler) with each throw seperated by a space.

You can alter the throwing sequence by including the sequence in brackets like so:


3 3 3 3 3
(LR) 3 3 3 3 3
(LLRR) 3 3 3 3 3
(WOMBLE) 3 3 3 3 3


& you can offset the start like so (only 0, 0.5 & 1 so far & you also have to include the throwing sequence):


(RL 0) 3 3 3 3 3 3
(RL 0.5) 3 3 3 3 3 3
(RL 1) 3 3 3 3 3 3


Jugglers are labeled ABC etc. for feeds passes are located by using the corresponding letter in place of p (This example is a nice pattern that we call the looking the wrong way feed at TWJC because while you are passing to one feedee you need to be looking at the other).


3b 3b 3 3 3b 3b 3 3
3a 3a 3c 3c 3a 3a 3c 3c
3 3 3b 3b 3 3 3b 3b


Users of the WYSIWYG editor will unfortunately just get what they see rather than a causal diagram (unless you click source in the bottom left hand corner which enables raw text input).

#passing #causaldiagrams #NewFeature

The Void - - Parent

Curious. I'm on Safari 4.1.3 at the moment, and I ticked the option and saved, went back to the smalltalk post in question, and just saw some blank spaces. So I clicked reply to let you know, but in the reply page, the diagrams show up in the "you are replying to this message:..." bit.

Repeated refreshes & reloads gets the same thing.

Let's try this:


3p 3 3 3p 3 3
3p 3 3 3p 3 3


...and see what Preview thinks of it....

....yep, it shows in Preview... let's see if it shows when I post it....

The Void - - Parent

Nope, it doesn't show in the post for me, but once again, it shows in the Reply screen I am currently typing in.
Odd.

Nonetheless, well done, a neat feature!

Orinoco - - Parent

Odd indeed. I'm still Chroming it which uses the same rendering engine with no problems. Going to have a think about that one...

Orinoco - - Parent

Quick test. Does this work for you?

The Void - - Parent

No, same thing. I see the plain text at first showing, which quickly disappears (leaving a gap), as though the browser is working on rendering it, but nothing actually shows up.

Orinoco - - Parent

This should work now - clear cache blah blah blah.

(Things are starting to get really complicated)

barnesy - - Parent

Yup, that's started working for me. That's in Chrome on OSX, so I guess there's enough in common for it to be likely to be working for Void too. Didn't do any cache clearing either.

The Void - - Parent

Didn't clear cache, but it all works now. Thank you.
The last one in your first post to this thread seems to have some html lying about at the bottom of the causal diagram though. I'll screenshot and email you....

The Void - - Parent

Once again, posting this as a reply from https://www.jugglingedge.com/smalltalktest.php?ThreadID=81 , the diagram shows up in the "you are replying to" box.

 

Subscribe to this forum via RSS
1 article per branch
1 article per post

Forum stats