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Cedric Lackpot -

Today is World Juggling/Apathy Day.

Therefore I urge you to do do something/nothing.

John R - - Parent

Thanks for reminding me! I turned the compost heap.

Little Paul - - Parent

Thanks for reminding me, I need to turn my heap.

Not a job I enjoy, but it does need doing!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Is it okay to turn some soil in the fields if you don't own a compost heap? I mean, it's the gesture that counts, isn't it?

Little Paul - - Parent

Well, I'm headed towards running no-dig in my garden, which would make the answer "no"

John R - - Parent

Has it been a good experience so far? I'm thinking about making my allotment no-dig - I started in 2014 and still haven't quite finalised the layout though, so maybe one or two more beds to be deep dug first.

7b_wizard -

Neuroscience of motor learning.

IsaacDraper - - Parent

You might like 'Peak' by Eric Anders, or is it Anders Eric?

7b_wizard - - Parent

There does seem to be differing aptitudes According to the german WP article at least 52 genes (or mutations) have been identified, that have an effect on various factors of sportive performance. People are different after all ..

7b_wizard - - Parent

One more thing: phenomena like Qi, flow or harmony (also in e.g. music) are harder nuts to crack for science. So it is no wonder that from science, we get results and (more or less) well searched theories on one dimensional, causally measurable interdependencies, resulting in "If you do this, you get this or that good or bad effect." (let alone dubious guides on how to become a superhuman in three weeks).

But there's more to it, I believe. We're highly complex organisms doing highly complex stuff juggling an' all, in a frame of highly complex evolution of life on earth.   Science can only offer partly truths, hints, provisional guidelines, mosaique stones for each of us to filter individually, but not (yet) any dead solid thorough complete final utter ultimate explanation of everything, it all, us and the whole.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I knew about the neural system being dynamic, but didn't associate the term "neural plasticity" with it. Then in articles about motor learning you usually read things like "new synapses are being built" or "the brain establishes new connections" or alike without telling what exactly goes on.

I found Dendritic spines accomplish this by transforming synaptic input into neuronal output and also by helping to define the relationship between synapses. particularly interesting. Seems like this is nothing else than what we call "automizing" - in a chain of eye-brain-hand-coordination, from being actively regulating and interfering when still learning, the brain becomes like merely a ``neural transmitter´´ with hands ``doing by themselves´´ as reacting to what the eyes see (eye--(brain)--hand).

Also the "stress" paragraph could be interesting: More importantly, many of the mechanisms involved with increased memory retention, comprehension, and adaptation are thought to involve LTP and LTD [long term potentiating and long term depressing], two activity-dependent plasticity mechanisms that stress can directly suppress. If this implies (not only extrinsic stress inflicted by outer conditions or other people or society, but) selfmade stress when learning (like wanting too much, setting insane goals, doing near and above limit a lot, ..), this might be nothing else than what we in juggling call "enforcing errors" prohibiting improvement and landing on a plateau. Maybe a reason to always also do relaxed and find easier ways what I always plead for.

#science #efficiency #motorLearning #automizing #learning #improving #plateau

Phranchesskah -

Hello I'm new here, please love and welcome me!

I'm almost a beginner at juggling but am earnestly practising to overcome that identity ;)

I like chocolate.

I'm looking forward to becoming a part of your community here, you seem like a nice enough lot of folks.

Orinoco - - Parent

Welcome Phranchesskah. What sort of chocolate are you working on at the moment?

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm rather partial to lindt lindor truffles at the moment, which isn't a particularly cheap habit.

vazonun - - Parent

Can't get enough of Vego Hazelnut vegan chocolate bar myself, also not very cheap.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Are you an expert on chocolate milk by any chance

Phranchesskah - - Parent

I'm not one for chocolate milk I'm afraid. I feel it ruins the chocolate, and the milk.

Phranchesskah - - Parent

Conscious Chocolate make the very best organic raw handmade expensive chocolate. and also I like Terry's. and also Lindt 90% dark chocolate, and mini eggs, and Cadbury's Dairy Milk, and Galaxy, and Galaxy caramel, and mint Matchmakers, and Crunchies! and Kinder eggs and also Toblerone.

I just love chocolate.

I also like cacao ceremonies.

vazonun - - Parent

Yes, I have tried the Mint Conscious Chocolate, it is very good, but indeed super expensive.

Phranchesskah - - Parent

They were giving it out for free at the door to the Mind Body Spirit festival in London a few weeks ago. So obviously I made friends with the guy on the door so I could keep going back for more :D

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi & welcome Phranchesskah! .. "seem nice enough" .. Haha! .. wait 'til you get to know us better ;o]p

York Jugglers - - Parent

Welcome to the Edge

You should come to Chocfest in January in York, we have a mini festival of juggling and chocolate.


Phranchesskah - - Parent

Ooooh what! That's genius. I will definitely be there.

Cedric Lackpot -

Teeterboard in the French countryside.

Good clean quirky fun, Gallic style. If you look closely you can see they are chain-smoking Gauloises.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool. Haven't seen ``consecutives´´ before (seen it only as jumptool in circus).

Daniel Simu - - Parent

If you're into Korean style teeterboard (different from Hungarian style, which you descriped as a jumptool), be sure to follow Aaron Hakala

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool. Instantly lifts my spirits when something or someone flies. ;o])

Orinoco -

Just going to leave this here to watch later. I've been told she's pretty good.

7b_wizard - - Parent


7b_wizard - - Parent

Here's her with long a cappella parts, "Blue Moon of Kentucky", and without puppet.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I cun do wentriloquisn, dut without the "eng" loik in "ngilkshake" (or in "sungertinge .. when the liwing is easieeeh""), without "qee" like in "qatterngenerator" and without the "dee" like in "dutterfly".  O,o

Orinoco - - Parent

↑ Not the most incomprehensible 7b_wizard post :P

7b_wizard - - Parent


david - - Parent

Bbest AGT ever!

Orinoco - - Parent

Yep, she's pretty good.

bad1dobby - - Parent

She's really good technically - try saying "baby" without using your lips, and then watch her do it at 2:15 - perfect!

I hope she gets past the fixed grin expression (I call it "ventriloquist's rictus"). Even if she doesn't, she'll still be in good company - Shari Lewis did it through her stellar career.

bad1dobby - - Parent

Here's Ken Dodd having fun with the "b" problem:
(Apologies if I've posted this before - it's a favourite)

Orinoco - - Parent

Haha! That's great!

Little Paul - - Parent


She's got 3 of the 4 key vent skills down (writing, puppetry, speaking without moving your lips) and I'm sure she's not far off the last (and hardest) one - a relaxed facial expression that reacts to the puppet.

Some of the other videos I've just watched of her are less rigid.

She's s country mile ahead of Nina Conti on the technical skill though!

Stephen Meschke -

Juggling Data Set.

I have created a juggling data set. It consists of several videos of different juggling patterns, graphs, and .csv (spreadsheet) files. Some of the data is visualized in this Youtube video: Juggling Pattern Waveforms.

To create the dataset, I first took video of myself juggling. Next, using computer vision, I recorded the locations of the juggling balls in a spreadsheet. Once the data is captured in a spreadsheet, it can be easily analyzed. For example, this is the data for the pattern 423:

Collecting the data (the positions of the balls) from the video and recording it in a spreadsheet requires specialization in computer vision, particularly object recognition and tracking. Now that the data has been taken from the video and put in a spreadsheet, it is much easier to analyze!

The data can also be analyzed using Python (with the help of packages Pandas and Matplotlib). This short Python script shows how to load and graph the data.

One of the applications of this dataset is to compare two different jugglers who are juggling the same pattern. But, for this, I need your help! I would like to include juggling from other jugglers in this data set. If you could supply me with a high-quality short video clip of juggling, I could track the locations of the balls and add it to the data set.

Nikita - - Parent

Hey, Stephen.
I don't quite see what result you trying to achieve here, but I'd really like to help.
I'll try to record something tomorrow.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I have several goals for the juggling data set:

  • Provide a repository of high quality juggling data for others to study.
  • Compare actual juggling patterns to idealized juggling patterns.
  • Compare one juggler to another.
  • Create a system of juggling notation that describes actual juggling.
  • Provide a ground truth for others to measure ball tracking algorithms.
  • Aid in the programming of juggling robots.

"If you build it, they will come."

I don't know what people will do with this data set! Hopefully, this data will have some really cool applications in the field of machine learning.

Nikita - - Parent

I gave it another thought. You probably can find as many juggling videos as you want on you tube.
If you have any specific requirement for you soft to work, than you better list them.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I considered using videos from Youtube (This is the data from an 11 ball flash.).

There are a couple problems with using videos from Youtube:

  • I don't have the rights to the source video.
  • Most of the juggling on Youtube is filmed so that it is aesthetically pleasing, rather than optimized for object tracking.

The two methods that I am using to track balls are optical flow and colorspaces.

Here are a few things that can be done to optimize a video for object tracking:

  • Use juggling props that have as much contrast as possible, like green props on a tan and white background.
  • Juggle in a space with even lighting.
  • Capture the video in the highest resolution and frame rate possible, for tall patterns like 97531 it is best to turn the camera sideways and film with vertical video.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I guess it's also obvious that the props should be visible all the time, so that for example claws hiding a ball are unapt for tracking  ( or will the software just go on tracking where the ball appears again with data just not for only that hidden part of the balls trajectory, a hole in the rendered curve then ) ?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, it is helpful if the props are visible. Sometimes the tracker will get lost if the ball is obscured, enters a different lighting condition, or changes direction rapidly. If the tracker gets lost, I can pause the program and reset the tracker to the appropriate position.

I can implement optical flow in Python, but I don't really understand it. Explaining how it works is way beyond me.

This video shows how optical flow works:

Notice what happens when the ball passes in front of my face. The tracker is most likely to get lost there because the ball appears to be a blur on those frames.

peterbone - - Parent

What steps follow optical flow? I assume you're first segmenting the flow vectors to find the balls? Are you then using a predictive tracker that can predict the object's position when not detected, such as a Kalman filter? It must be possible for the tracker to know that the balls travel in parabolas when in the air, which would help tracking a lot.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

The tracking program that I wrote is quite simple. It relies on the user to click on an object to be tracked, and then uses optical flow to track the object. There is no detection, that is done by the user. Segmenting flow vectors is not something that I had considered, but I will try to implement that.

I have considered using a Kalman filter, OpenCV has a Kalman filter class, and I am currently researching this. The use of a Kalman filter is probably the best tool to make juggling ball tracking software more robust.

Optical flow is more than adequate for tracking the balls when they are in the air. Most of the tracking problems I encounter are when the ball has a sudden change in velocity as it is caught or thrown.

Tracking juggling balls in highly optimized video is a fairly easy computer vision task, a heuristic approach to solving my tracking problems is to collect video in higher resolution. I am currently working with 1080p30fps video.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Any particular patterns you'd like me to film? I'll try and do this next week.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, can you film 15 catches of 5 ball cascade (from launch to collect)? I have noticed that good jugglers tend to throw the first ball (or maybe two or three balls) a little higher than the average pattern height. Jugglers that are just learning the 5 ball cascade tend to throw the first few balls a little low and then struggle into the pattern.

I want to get video from several jugglers, all juggling the same pattern for the same amount of catches, so that I can compare things like average pattern height, dwell time, height of the first throw vs. the average height of the pattern, syncopation, etc...

Thank you for you interest in the juggling data set.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Sorry for the delay. I was going to film outside just now and then realized my balls are in the gym. Just letting you know I still plan on doing it :)

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

No rush! The juggling data set is a long term project for me.

A couple notes about uploading video:

  • I prefer that you upload the file directly as it comes from the camera to avoid loss of resolution. Don't worry about editing (splicing, cropping, or rotating).
  • Please upload the video to a location where it can be downloaded directly (not Youtube, there is no way to download Youtube videos in full quality).
  • Mention that you allow me to use your video in my juggling data set.
  • You can also email your video to me directly (probably the easiest thing to do) at 'stephen meschke @ gmail . com.' With the spaces removed.

Thank you!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course I read this post while it was already uploading to youtube >.<, so I'll post it here anyway for those interested. It's also on it's way to your email inbox. You can use this video in any way you like, including but not limited to using it in your data set.

Sorry for the terrible terrible quality! I hadn't tried 60fps mode before, at least now I know it is completely useless. If you prefer I can film it again in 30fps, which should be sharp 1080p.
I have a super wide lens and the camera allows me to zoom, probably some kind of digital zoom which made the sharpness even worse, but the lines of the building still don't seem exactly straight. I hope this doesn't skew the data too much.

Anyway, if you have wishes, let me know and I'll film it and send the raw stuff straight to you.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you for sending me your video! Even though the resolution was not great, the contrast between the balls and the rest of the frame was amazing! The balls were very easy to track.

I have used my tracking software to extract the data, here are the results:

Now that I have data from another juggler, I can work on methods to compare your juggling to mine.

Orinoco - - Parent

I'm watching this project with interest.

I'm wondering if professionals working on a synchronised routine would be interested in your software to analyse a video of their routine to easily identify areas where they are out of synch?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Most of the time it is easy to see for the professionals themselves when they are out of synch, no software needed. Perhaps for really precise things, such as isolations, this could be an application. But this software is not for that..

david - - Parent

Excellent, both the juggling and the tracking. I particularly value seeing the start which inspires me to clean up my start to include the whole trough of the curves before the first releases.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you.

I was surprised to find that the act of juggling started quite a while before the first ball was thrown. I'd like to collect data from multiple jugglers to see if everyone does two fake throws before launching the first ball.

Kelhoon - - Parent

I often do several (more than 2) fake throws when starting 5, but launch in to a lot of patterns with 3 straight away.

I tend to do the fake throws for 5 until I "feel" like I have the right rhythm and spacing.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Now for the stuff I'd be curious about:
In long runs, how stable are my throws? Like could you give my pattern a score based on how much the throws diverge from the average of all throws?
In what way do my L and R hand differ? Do they both throw equally high and wide, or how big is the difference?

In the shorter runs, it is completely fine for me if every ball behaves different. Here I don't want to compare throw by throw, but rather run by run. I gave 3 samples of 15 catches, I'd be curious to know if ball 1 of attempt 1 is similar to ball 1 of attempt 2 and 3. etc.

In the future it could be interesting to compare jugglers and their styles too. Average height, dwell time, width, etc.

In all of the scores above I'd like to bring to 0 difference of course, and if there was a tangible number it would be fun to keep track over the years and try to become as much robot like as possible.

Anyway, those are some ideas of what to do with the data :). I hope you find some uses for this. And since seemingly I'm only the second juggler you've got on video: Guys, record some 5b 15 catches! Super easy stuff, right?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I have been working on determining dwell time and throw height. I do eventually want to create some metric that can describe how far a juggling pattern is from perfection. This is an interesting question though, because I don't really know what perfection is in terms of juggling.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I wouldn't steer towards the question of what a perfect throw would be, that can be answered by others over time. You could however determine how far a throw is from your own average, or how far it is from the throws of this one juggler who you think throws pretty perfect.

My thoughts about a perfect throw/pattern can be found here:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Since throws would be perfect parabolas (are they?), can't we visualize most of the data when we'd just have the starting point, the highest point and the catching point of each throw? Would diminishing the data like that make it easier to analyze, possibly easier to visualize? Is it hard to acquire these 3 points from the data?

david - - Parent

In the absence of wind the center of mass free flight paths are perfect parabolas to pixel resolution but the parabola may not be in the plane the camera is digitizing. There is also a little uncertainity about the end points. If you look at the velocity and acceleration plots you can see the noise. You can also see that, for the example shown, less than half is for free flight.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Tracking the ball during throws and catches is difficult for three reasons:

  • The ball is partially obscured by the hand.
  • The ball is at maximum speed, and appears as a blur instead of a sphere.
  • There may be a sudden change in speed and direction during the throw or catch.

The easiest solution is to record video in a higher frame rate; 120fps is sufficient for most 5 ball juggling. Another solution is to use smoothing techniques on the data to reduce noise. I have applied smoothing techniques to Daniel's data, and these are the results (quite an improvement):

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Right now I am focused on collecting good data, by working to make my tracking program more accurate.

I have identified five critical points that I would like to find: toss, crossing point traverse, zenith, catch, and toss onset. These critical points can be found in the data by using statistical techniques.

peterbone - - Parent

I think that your data request is not specific enough. If you want to compare the same pattern for different jugglers then you should specify exactly what data you want. I think you'd have a lot more response for that. I may be interested in filming something if you have a specific request. I have a nice plain wall outside and some bright balls.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

For the purposes of comparing one juggler to another, it would be best to eliminate as many variables as possible:

It would be easiest to do this at a juggling convention, with one camera setup and an 'x' on the floor for the juggler to stand over.

Until then, if you (or anyone else) would like to have a short clip of juggling tracked and recorded in a spreadsheet, I am more than willing to help.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Come do this next year at the Dutch juggling championships. Plenty of ball jugglers who all believe they have the best 5b cascade, you can help them (dis)proove it and collect data at the same time!

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I made sure to get explicit consent before including you in the Juggling Dataset to avoid future conflict if the analysis proved that your juggling is bad. Looking at my own data, and comparing it to yours I can see that you juggle much better.*

For jugglers that spend more than an hour a day with props in the air, juggling can become part of who they are. Finding out that they are not good at juggling (by some however arbitrary measure) can be a hard pill to swallow.

*I blame it on the balls.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Indeed, sadly, it's just an arbitrary measure... I'm not convinced that my stable juggling is any good until I get close to your 7b records ;)

Do I see correctly that this graph only displays the height of the balls over time? Variation in width of a throw and horizontal spacing would also be important to determine if your juggling is "clean".

Our graphs look very different. I assume the horizontal scale is based on the amount of frames? It wouldn't be too hard to adjust for actual time, no?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

From the video with the overlay it seems like my two hands have opposite problems:

My right hand makes throws from a consistent horizontal location, but the throws vary in width. My left hand makes throws from different locations, but somehow manages to correct the width in such a way that the balls all land at exactly the same spot! I could have never noticed this without the visual aid. Can you check if this is also true in the longer runs? Can you think of a way of graphing out the data of the x axis in a way that this would be readable?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course, the same kind of graph but downwards, that could work...

(if only I could edit posts to include the thoughts I have seconds after posting, this thread wouldn't need to become a mess)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Also, the color coding is different in the graph and in the video. Sticking to one consistent order would make it easier to analize.

Sorry for the overkill of input, I'm just excited and curious to study more of my juggling this way :D

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, these graphs plot height on the Y-axis and time on the X-axis. I would like to include the horizontal position of the balls, but that would mean graphing in three dimensions, which I have only a little experience with (I'll try it in Matplotlib for Python, but if anyone has suggestions...).

The graph of your pattern is more stretched out because yours if filmed in 60fps and mine is filmed in 30fps. I am working on a way to normalize the data so that different frame rates can be compared.

I see that you have replied to your own comment several times! Glad to see you are excited about this. I am excited about this too, but as this is a long term project for me, I am going to take my time and try to produce high quality data and avoid publishing things only to have to retract them later.

unigamer - - Parent

Hello Stephen, I've been following this thread closely, it's a great project. I'll try to get some footage of myself juggling soon and send it to you.

I haven't got round to using Matplotlib yet because I've had access to Matlab while I am a student. I have done a fair amount of plotting, animating and other stuff. If you're willing to send me an example csv file of some juggling, maybe a column for each ball and each row being a discrete time step then I'd love to have a go at plotting some stuff. I can just send whatever I come up with to you, the Matlab code won't be directly useful because I suspect the syntax might be a bit different but it should be a nice little prototype.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

The data for my pattern can be found here:

@Stephen: Until a 3d graphic is readable, 2 separate 2d graphics would also help to analize the juggling

unigamer - - Parent

Sorry Daniel, I wasn't paying attention to who-is-who there so my previous message was directed to you. Thanks for a link to the data, I've had a quick play around with it.

My working folder:

My first quick test plot:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Don't worry, this is Stephens data file anyway (of my pattern)

Looks interesting, I guess I'd have to view it in 3d to be able to see if it is analisable...

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Nice graph! Did you smooth the data?

I made a .gif of the same graph using Python and Matplotlib, here's a link: Small: 3mb, Medium: 5mb, Large: 9mb.

You can find the code used to generate these (and lots more) in the Python Tutorials folder of the Juggling Dataset.

unigamer - - Parent

I didn't smooth the data but I did choose thick lines which can have a similar effect.

If your gif is animated then my phone isn't showing it properly, I'll check tomorrow on a desktop. Hopefully I'll make the switch to Python soon so I can use your stuff and my work won't be tied up in proprietary, expensive software... it's just so convenient though!

I'd like to do some animating of the data. It would also be interesting to seperate each 'cycle' to see how consistent the throws are. This steps into statistics and is a bit outside my territory but it would be a fun project to learn more with.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I made a few more animated graphs and uploaded them to Imgur for viewing on mobile:

These graphs are also available in the graphs folder in the Juggling Data set.

I have learned a lot about statistics and computer vision working on this project. You can find the codes that I used in the Python Tutorials folder (they aren't pretty).

Dee - - Parent

It would be interesting to see how this relates to what Joost Dessing was doing at EJC2014 (a brief description was in Scott Seltzer's general review of EJC2014).

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oh cool, thanks for that link. It must've slipped past me at the time.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you for that interesting link, I look forward to reading his publications. It seems that Dr. Joost Dressing and I have different aims for the data that we collect.

My goal for the Juggling Dataset is to create a dataset that others (who are so statistically inclined) can use to study juggling. I want the data to be as accessible as possible, similar to how the creators of Kaggle have made the Titanic Dataset accessible; by hosting the data online with a thorough description and several tutorials in multiple programming languages.

I assume Dr. Dressing collects data to prove or disprove a hypothesis and then publishes those results for academic prestige.

Early on in the creation of this data set I realized that creating a data set is difficult. There are several steps, and each of which requires specialized knowledge, software, and equipment to do well: juggling, video recording of juggling, computer vision analysis of juggling video, formatting data and hosting it online, writing tutorials and descriptions for the data...all of this has to happen before a hypothesis can be tested.

Fields like machine learning and data science are really starting to take off! By creating the Juggling Data set, I hope to leverage the machine learning practitioners and data scientists skills to advance the knowledge of juggling. They are nothing without data, but likely lack the ability to collect it. There are a lot of data addicts, but few data set creators.

Nikita -

Hey guys!

I just recently joined the forum and I have few questions about record logging.
Hope you can help me :)

So the thing I'm confused with, is order of throws in siteswap notation.

Lets say I want to record 56 throws of 12345 (we all know this trick, and there is no questions that it is called 12345)
So I record 56 3b 12345.
My actual throws started with 3. Like 3451234512... So why do I record 12345 instead of 34512 then ?
12345 and 34512 considered different tricks by site engine, but they actually are the same one.
And how would I record this trick with additional 6 throw ? Is it 1234560 or 0123456 ?
Do we have any rules of resolving situations like this ?

Also, do you count 2 and 0 as a catch ?
And is there a way to tag people in posts ?

lukeburrage - - Parent

The convention among jugglers is to typically write down or say a siteswap starting with the highest value. Sure, you might get into the pattern with different throws, or start the loop at a different place, but for clear and easy communication, it's nice if everyone sticks to the same order for the same pattern.

This means 97531 is always easy to recognise, rather than each time the reader having to decode that 31975 and 19753 and 75319 are all the same pattern.

In your case, you are wrong that there is no question that your pattern is called 12345, as you yourself then explain. The convention is to call it 51234.

As for counting catches, with running a siteswap pattern it's often easier to count the cycles of the pattern. For example, here is a video of the b97531 record. Catches aren't mentioned, but "151 rounds" is:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I've never heard of this convention. 51234 sounds strange. Why not start a siteswap at its easiest point of entry? If it is a ground state siteswap, it's always obvious. 45123 makes much more sense to me than 51234. Obviously it's going to be 97531 and not 19753
Besides, how do you solve for siteswaps with recurring high numbers? 777171 could be written in 4 correct ways then?

I'm not an expert on states, but the excited state pattern 891 doesn't start with the highest number either. I believe that the easiest entry is 778, wheras the easiest entry for 918 is 7788?

"and there is no questions that it is called 12345" I think siteswap wise it should be called 45123, but 12345 is the obvious style choice. Which indeed makes counting tricky. You could link 45123 to the 12345 trick in the record section, claim that your version is the correct one and ask the current record holders for clarification of their counting method.
For myself I would also count cycles, not catches, but I understand that in the record section that doesn't work... I'm sure someone who uses the record section actively can comment on this?

peterbone - - Parent

The convention is actually to write the siteswap in numerical order. So 777171 would be the only correct way to write it. I assume that the reason is that it was convenient for early siteswap generators to write them in that format without having to work out the states. Writing them with highest values first is most likely to result in a low state start, unless you work out the states.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Well, Peter already answered this. It's the highest numerical value if converted into a single number. 777171 starts with 777 which is higher than 771, 717, 171 or 717.

As for this: "I'm not an expert on states, but the excited state pattern 891 doesn't start with the highest number either. I believe that the easiest entry is 778, wheras the easiest entry for 918 is 7788?"

Let's write those down.

Into 891 is 778? So that's 778891891891...

Into 918 is 7788? So that's 778891891891...

Yeah, you've just come up with the same thing!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course they're both the same thing! But that still doesn't tell you whether you should write 891 or 918, right? And my generator & jugglewiki do call it 891, not 918...

Orinoco - - Parent

I've never heard of that convention either. I've only ever heard 12345 called 12345. Searching for 12345 vs the other permutations on rec.juggling & the Edge (both the forum & the records section), 12345 is by far the most prevalent.

If two siteswap records are entered into the Edge records system that are a rotation of each other & provided you have built up enough 'experience' by entering records you will have the option to merge those two tricks together. Once merged you can enter the trick whichever way you like but they will be listed & compared together.

At present no-one has entered a permutation of 12345 to link to.

Maria - - Parent

I have heard of that convention, and I would certainly write any 4-handed siteswaps that way (I believe that most of the passers do that).

When logging my juggling practice, however, I usually write ground-state siteswaps in the order I do them, so 51234 would be written as 45123, since that way I can say that I did 4 rounds and back to cascade or something like that. (While if I wrote it as 12345 or 51234, the same number of actual throws and catches would only contain 3 rounds and the first and last throws would count as transition throws...).

I don't log siteswap records so it doesn't matter in that case, but if I did, I'd feel that doing for example ...3333345123451234512333333.... would be 15 catches of 45123, but only 13 catches of 12345. (If I do active 2s, otherwise I would not count them.)

Someone might also have noticed that I sometimes log both 55050 and 50505 in the same practice session... Or 552 and 525. In that case, it's just different starts and has little to do with how to write siteswaps and more to do with me wanting to see in my log entry that I actually did two different starts, but being too lazy to use a lot of words. (55050 would be starting with one club in one hand and two in the other, and throwing from the hand with one club first. 50505 would be starting with 3 in the same hand.)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Same here .. heard of that convention and use it for logging records, but in a given context write them as then makes more sense.

The Void - - Parent

I've heard of that convention and yet also commonly heard patterns referred to in ascending order, eg 12345. (Also the convention for writing multiplex throws also follows the "highest possible number" convention. eg [543], not [345]. I learned that from Sean Gandini.)

lukeburrage - - Parent

In the single case of the pattern 12345, yes, that order is the most common by far. It feels like the natural way of saying it. However, it's in a class of patterns where throw values increase by one until it drops to the first number again, and in most other cases, the higher number is said first. Examples:

423 not 234
534 not 345
645 not 456

It's only because it feels natural to say the number 1 first that people do so! And it *is* so satisfying to say it that way! In conversation, I've no problem with saying 12345. I think it's more important to have clear communication between two people than to follow strict rules.

But in the case of making a list or database entry, I think it's best to stick with the convention. And if there's any confusion, explain the convention, not make exceptions for something that just happens to scratch a weird cognitive itch.

The Void - - Parent


Kelhoon - - Parent

What if others (like me) find it easier to start it with the 3 ? i.e. 34512

There are many patterns that people don't start the same way, so the easy way for you isn't necessarily the easy way for others, hence the need for the convention as discussed by Peter and Luke to help everyone recognise a given siteswap from all it's possible cycles.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yes, this is the whole point. When ordering lists, the person reading it should know where to look, and also not think they are missing anything, and also not worrying that two things in different places are duplicates. This is why bookshops and libraries have settled on (within sections) ordering books by the author's second name, and then the first name, and then by book title/series title and number. If you went into a bookshop, and some books were ordered by the title, and some by the author name, and some by the colour of the spine, everyone would be super annoyed.

In the case of siteswaps in a list, or in a database like the records section, the obvious thing to do is order them by A: object number and then by B: numerical value.

This is important because, just looking at the siteswap out of context, it's impossible for most people to know the state of the pattern, or how they would transition into it from the cascade or fountain, or any number of other things.

And it's really important not to have 777171, 771717, 717177, 171777, 717771 an 177717 ALL listed in different places, or else the list would be unmanageable! You'd also have to have 441, 414 and 144 listed. And every other iteration of every other pattern, just in case another juggler liked starting on a different beat or had a different transition into the patter,

If someone is confused, it's much better to explain the convention to that person (eg. "in the book shop we order by author surname") than it is to accommodate their preference at the expense of making the system more complicated and confusing for everyone else.

Orinoco - - Parent

With regards to counting numbers. Don't count 0s, & only count 2s if they are active (thrown); if you are just holding the prop don't count it as a catch.

There currently isn't a way to tag people in a post, I don't think traffic is really high enough to warrant the feature? If you just type someone's name in all capitals I'm sure they'll get the message.

Nikita - - Parent

Thank you, Orinoco.

Not counting 0 makes and passive 2's makes sense. I just realized than I counted number of cycles and multiplied it by number of digits in siteswap. But it turned out to be wrong.

Taging people look nice. As I see it. Just Highlighted name makes it clear to random reader that message has direct recipient. It also would allow to send emails to tagged people if they want it, for example. I don't think everyone read forum from end to end. But it is minor.

I'm much more interested in resolving my siteswap issue.
You mentioned an option to merge two tricks together. I have not found info about it anywhere, could you please comment on it ?
If there is a possibility to merge tricks and make two different entries behave like one trick would really solve it.
But also may be i't is possible to pre process siteswaps programmatically to make all versions of one trick recorded with same string. (like if you enter 315 it is still shows up as 531)
I'm not sure if it is a right way.

peterbone - - Parent

Go to any trick in the records section and look at the bottom of the page for "Is this trick the same as another? Link them together". However, based on what Orin said earlier it may not be available unless you've added a lot of records.

Orinoco - - Parent

...& that link will appear if you've logged more than 10 records. This is just an arbitrary threshold so that linking is only handled by people who are at least a little familiar with the records system. I couldn't remember what the threshold was when I posted earlier so just had to look up the code!

Nikita - - Parent

Okay, that explains why I have not found it :)

Nikita -

Hi everyone!

Glad to join your community, hope to find and share some value on juggling edge.

Now you have one more juggler from Russia here along with Ilia Poliakov.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Welcome! I'm always happy to hear this forum expands beyond UK borders :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi & welcome!

find and share some value .. care to specify (or do you mean "in general") ?

[ Ilya Poliakov .. yeah, I saw his admirably huge repertoire and records, and sometimes he smalltalks :o] ]

Nikita - - Parent

I mean in general :)
Value of knowledge and motivation, you know.

Orinoco -

I've been doing a lot of BJC research recently. Risky in Pink were a trio of club jugglers/table divers from NoFit State Circus who performed at the BJC in 1991. You can see a bit of their act in this old video which amused me greatly.

Daniel Simu - - Parent


Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Saw that routine live at NFS HQ in Splott :)

Did you know it was choreographed/devised/consulted on by Johnny Hutch?

charlieh - - Parent

Ah there's a name to conjure with - an acrobat of the old school who was apparently spotted by a passing troupe doing a handstand on a chimney where he was working as a builder...could still do backflips at the age of 70 I believe.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Great acts. Very very lively, enjoyable & entertaining.

IsaacDraper -

Hello all, my five ball cascade is starting to get fairly good and I wanna start some tricks. Where should I start? I'm thinking easy peasy rather than upside down, back to front reverse Rubenstein. Thanks!

James Hennigan - - Parent

The easiest 5 ball tricks are multiplex tricks:

The halfshower is probably the easiest non-multiplex trick (learn to do it with 4 if you haven't already).

The easiest siteswaps with 5 are (6x,4)*, 744 & 645 (again I recommend working on 4b siteswaps first).

I would also strongly encourage you to work on 3 balls in one hand at this point. It's essential for many 5 ball tricks, and if you choose to learn 6 it's nice if you can already do half of the pattern.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Other tricks to consider:
Walking around, turning around, sitting down & standing up, balancing on one leg, twisting your upper body, etc.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Congratulations on solidifying a five ball cascade! The 5b. cascade was my first juggling goal, and the pattern that really got me hooked on juggling.

Where you go from here depends on your skill level as well as your goals for juggling. I encourage you to log some of your practice sessions (in the logs section of the so that more advanced jugglers can recommend tricks and juggling patterns that are relevant to your skill level.

If you are only interested in performance, learning 5 ball siteswaps is not the most efficient use of your time.

My goal is to juggle 7 balls for one minute, and I don't really care about performance juggling. If you are like me, you should train 3, 4, and 5 ball siteswaps. 5 ball siteswaps are considerably more difficult than the 5 ball cascade, so it's best to master some 3 and 4 ball siteswaps first.

Now is a good time to get a set of juggling clubs.

7b_wizard - - Parent

As a mix of normal\reverse throws (normal--normal--reverse--..a.s.o.), I liked "fast tennis" [animation on JWikia lower right]

ways of gripping, catching
You might wanna do a, one or some claws?
A low throw - but still a 5, just caught penguin, thrown right back in unchanged tact and 5-pattern.

355[22]5[53]55555 - chose a 5-ball to track for throwing that 3 to land near where and when that 5 will presumably land. Then, after the hold, stack-split them right back into pattern; you can use the thumb to split them well. Just make sure, the other hand is ready to go on throwing its normal 5 right after that lower stacked ball comes in sooner, lower.
25[53]5555 - with a hold you wait for another 5 to come in and throw them right back to pattern with the same stacked throw.
7555505[53]55555 - one high 7, then you throw a 5 onto both meeting where and when they land. The stack now goes right into filling the gap back to full 5-pattern.
355[75]5055555 - a 5 and 3 meet (creating a gap where they're thrown, two beats later), thrown as high stack right back into filling all gaps to full pattern again.

55558552 - I found straight up outside 8-s easier - away from any possible collisons.

7b_wizard - - Parent

[ff (last one, °8552°)] .. just do 855 from running cascade, stop one beat, and aim the next normal 5-throw ``over´´ the incoming 8 back to ground-pattern.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I also like how different the answers here are without overlapping!?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Just one two more remarks on extra throws or sequences from 5b-cascade ..

.. by doing an extra throw, you split the pattern into that extra throw and a rest of the normal ground pattern (consisting of 4 balls going on doing regular Fives, or - in case of multiplex - 3 balls doing regular Fives).

.. if you have a weakhand that sort of always follows while stronghand sort of leads, any extra throw will entail a following reaction of the next hand (like also ``wanting´´ to do or in fact doing higher, or also lower, or also wanting to pause on a hold, ororor, or simply gets puzzled on "Erhh.. why what how now?" at a given moment).

.. also, when doing higher throws, an 8, a 6, a 7, you have like more balls in the air than usually when doing 5b cascade where one ball has its dwelltime, one next lowest ball is spotted to catch and sort of ``done with focus on it´´, which makes it mostly three balls in the air to cope with.   With a high throw, there's then (suddenly) four balls in the air high up to be coped with.

So, one main hurdle in leaving the constant cascade to do extra throws or sequences, is to dead-stable keep the rest of the pattern in stable shape!   Rely on well aimed throws fitting back into pattern even when you seem to lose control for a few milliseconds and just let things happen instead of hesitating!

IsaacDraper - - Parent

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll get started right away! My 3b and 4b siteswaps are limited but I'm learning more. Exciting stuff!

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