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7b_wizard -

Did you ever - as far as you're aware, of course - dream that you toss*-juggle?

  1. Yes. Often or sometimes and with clear memory of it.
  2. Yes, often or sometimes, but memory is dim or I forget soon or right after after waking up.
  3. Yes, once or twice. Clearly.
  4. Yes, once or twice. Dimly.

  5. Somewhat \ Maybe:
  6. Not really - only single throws and catches. Or only throws to drops. Or only slightly very shortly losing physical contact to the prop before catching it again rightaway.
  7. I think so, but I'm not sure 'cos the memory of it is dim and nebulous or mixed up.

  8. No \ Rather not:
  9. I dream of conventions or of meetings or of folks or of being in a gym or of any juggling setup or of being onstage or of having an audience or of having my props with me and in reach and getting ready, but astonishingly never do or can't manage to actually really toss and really juggle one single throw.
  10. Could have been possible, can't exclude, might have, but any corresponding memory is too dim and nebulous to really tell. Rather not.
  11. Definitely, not that I know. No memory of the kind. Nowhere near.

  12. [ other ]

*"toss" - or fly and catch a diabolo, or run a devilstick, or foot- or knee-juggle a soccer ball, headbounces, or also scarve-juggling, .. anything where you lose physical contact to your prop. And catching, or at least the intention to catch, should be included. - So, I'd like contact-juggling, contact-staff, spinning, twirling, balancing and alike to be excluded.

Competition type: Poll
Closing date: 26th Nov 2017
Select option to vote

7b_wizard - - Parent

I'm 7. Would love to improve over night, though. Also forgot to include the choice "Constantly, it's unnerving, I wake up from it everytime I drop." lol

I can - not while dreaming, but when awake - visualize throws (and then upto where they fly until I do the next throw to focus on, which is about to their apex), but then don't know where the balls are for catching (they sort of fade or vanish in a still life from where I last pictured them), .. so, when visualizing more rounds after launch, I have to take the catches for granted (and from seeing balls at launch before my mind's eye, I go over to instead feeling my handmovement + thrust + aiming or so). [ #dream #visualize ]

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

I think I've only ever dreamt of juggling once. I dream of juggling conventions fairly often. There frequently isn't any juggling in the juggling convention dreams, but I know I'm at a juggling convention. I'll give myself a 7.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Okay. Sounds more like "maybe, rather yes" to me(?). Then maybe 3. or 4, (both definite "yes"), if you're sure, you did, or 6. if you're you're not all sure, but positively think you did, would fit better? - 7. was really more meant as an "almost, but definitely not" .. everything is ready and setup to juggle, but you don't or can't or don't know how (the emphasis is not on the surroundings-story, but just to elude on "nearly could and should've but it didn't happen"). Actually, I meant the poll to find out how many are even able to juggle while dreaming. (But, hey, whatever you think! I'm happy about everyone who finds a choice that fits him.)

7b_wizard - - Parent

It's not all clear: does "you think" in "I think I've only ever dreamt of juggling once." refer to "dreamt of juggling" or to "ever only once"? Do or do you not have a memory of indeed yourself juggling?

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

I've definitely dreamt about juggling conventions. I may have dreamt about actual juggling. I don't usually remember my dreams well nor conversations about them. I slightly remember discussing having a juggling dream that wasn't the usual so I think I may have been juggling in it. Or perhaps I actually saw juggling (as the convention dreams don't usually (or ever?) have juggling in them. It's all a bit hazy for sure. I'm a definite 7 and maybe a 4 but I won't commit to that.

Maria - - Parent

I have dreamt I was passing clubs at least twice. I don't remember details (like what pattern or passing partners) but I think I remembered a bit more right after I woke up. I believe I woke up in the middle of the pattern, not after dropping. Good dreams. :)

I'll put that as a 4.

Have definitely dreamt of juggling conventions a few times, too. At least more times than about actual juggling... As far as I can remember, of course.

Maria - - Parent

...and shortly after I wrote that answer I slept and dreamed about working out new take-out passing patterns (on paper and by walking through the moves) together with another passer that I know from conventions. I know who the other juggler was but not what pattern we were working on. No actual juggling in that dream, though.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Double yes:
First without effort, and second when I was learning to lucid dream.

(I don't bother with lucid dreaming anymore)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Awesome. Can you still recall that ´´film´´, can you remember the pattern(s) and if you juggled same that you juggle when you really juggle (awake) or better and harder pattern(s), did it feel like real juggling with you controlling, acting & reacting, or did it somehow ´´hover´´, go all by itself, with you being able to watch like your own audience, was it °-.,~°happy°~.,.-°, did you ´´upgrade´´ first step to superhuman juggler, did it impact on your real juggling or did it rather seem as a fulfilment of your real juggling, a confirmation, a validation, a corroboration burnt by and into subconsciousness as affirmation?

Mike Moore - - Parent

The first time I dreamt about juggling was the most memorable. Myself and many friends were lined up to enter jail cells (for some unknown reason, but we were all resigned to it). I was among the first group locked away, but at the time (when awake), I'd often vaguely fantasized about going to jail and juggling all day, every day. I juggled a 3b cascade while sitting on some riser (a crate?). I dropped, the ball went off my foot and rolled out of the cell to a yet-to-be restrained friend of mine. They shot me such a nasty look that it woke me up.

When I was practicing lucid dreaming, I dreamt of practicing 7b cascade (probably half a dozen times or so). I didn't find that it helped, and found that I woke less rested than usual when this happened, so I stopped. Maaaybe this helped me "feel" what it was like to run it, but I doubt it had any real benefit. I was able to slow things down, see things from a third party point of view, etc.

7b_wizard - - Parent

fantasized about going to jail and juggling all day, every day.

I - when awake - sometimes have that martial arts movie-picture ("The snake in the shadow of the Eagle" or sth) of Jackie Chan training (barehanded) in a desert in my mind's eye, or that guy with his nunchucks-like three-parts-staff practising.

Nice story!

Sobers me up a bit that it shouldn't have any practise effect as I imagined. I'd still do it, though :o) (°gee° slomo, zoom at will, third party view - sounds sooo cool!)

Jan Poolen - - Parent

Yes, fun question. I remember it vividly.
First time I dreamed of flashing 7 clubs under the low ceilling at the place where I used to take breaks while juggling at the squash courts.
Second time I dreamed doing exactly 50 catches of 9 balls and being really content about my achievment(maybe one day I will really do it, and be satisfied in real life )
Third time, I did 5 connected db97531's with balls while sitting down on a chair.
Sweet dreams

7b_wizard - - Parent

So cool! Amazing. Did you also feel the juggling in your hands or just rather like watched yourself do it?

7b_wizard -

What's the longest toss-juggling endurance you ever did?

(no matter which pattern, which prop)

  1. I don't really endure anything
  2. less than a minute
  3. between 1 and 3 min
  4. between 3 and 5 min
  5. between 5 and 10 min
  6. between 10 and 30 min
  7. between 30 min and 1 h
  8. between 1 and 4 h
  9. marathon, more than 4 h

I hope to find - if many of us vote - how popular or common enduring even is (and for how long).

This is a competition thread which ran from 9th Nov 2017 to 16th Nov 2017. View results.

It's Him - - Parent

About 25 years ago I worked for a juggling stall that had a competition which was to juggle 3 x 1.5 Kg Splats as long as possible. I think the winner was about 45 minutes. Shortly after that I tried to match that time with 3 x 1 Kg Absolutes. I matched it but killed my wrists doing it and suffered from tendonitis for quite a while. I'm not sure that endurance is necessarily the way to go but it made for an interesting competition.


Daniel Simu - - Parent

What are Splats and Absolutes? I know Absolute rings but they are definitely not 1kg :p

The Void - - Parent

Big beanbags.

Ameron Rosvall - - Parent

Sounds very painful, can kinda relate, though what you did must have been worse. I did 3 beanbags with wrist weights for 1 hour once, beanbags were just 200g each and weights were 1.5kg each. Still very exhausting.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Longest endurances have been my worst dropless joggling races

Maria - - Parent

I did my longest endurance when I had only juggled for two years. It was 20 minutes of 3 clubs cascade. I'm not planning on doing any longer endurance of any pattern.

7b_wizard - - Parent

°oupps° .. a logical inconsistency in the poll again: ..ever did? versus 1. ..don't really now..

Please read ( 1. I don't really endure anything ) as "1. I never really endured anything."!

Maria - - Parent

That is how I understood it.
I was thinking, though... If you want to find out how popular endurance is, it might also be interesting to know if people are planning/hoping to achieve longer runs in the future, and how long. I have no desire to spend a lot of time trying to get as long runs as possible any more, but I would like to be able to do patterns for, like, 5 minutes or something. But I guess that wouldn't really count as endurance, it would more be about getting the pattern really solid.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I'm not planning to do anything longer than my 3b 12 minutes. Yes, especially for important basic patterns, 5 minutes is pretty much okay for me too. Yet, with 5 min x 60 sec x ~5~6 throws/sec = ~1,500 throws, that I got near to once only with 5 balls, I still don't feel like really having ``mastered´´ the pattern, it's far from ``like walking´´. So either I'll have to get more runs over 1,000 or indeed do many more throws and minutes. But it's sooo time intensive while learning tricks and other patterns instead is much more rewarding (and hard and challenging enough and worthwhile too).

Maria - - Parent

I have not been close to 5 minutes with any other pattern than 3 objects cascade yet. Could probably do it with a basic passing pattern with the right partner (6 clubs 4-count, 2-count or 3-count). Solo patterns... maybe 423 could work.
I'm definitely not even close with 4 objects, my personal record being just a little bit over 200 catches. But that might actually be a bit of an endurance thing, I do get tired when juggling 4 clubs. Arms starting to get tired before 100 catches, and my pulse is definitely high, too.

Yeah, it's more fun to learn new tricks and patterns than spending lots of time on the ones that already kind of works.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Mine was 12+ minutes of 3b cascade.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

2360c of 5b. that would be about 10m I suppose

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

1 - 3 minutes..

Marvin - - Parent

This poll has now ended. The results are:

  1.   I don't really endure anything (0 votes)
  2.   less than a minute (0 votes)
  3.   between 1 and 3 min (1 vote)
  4.   between 3 and 5 min (1 vote)
  5.   between 5 and 10 min (4 votes)
  6.   between 10 and 30 min (8 votes)
  7.   between 30 min and 1 h (6 votes)
  8.   between 1 and 4 h (2 votes)
  9.   marathon, more than 4 h (0 votes)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Ey Marvin, I know I could easily add up the numbers myself, but would you consider posting the total amount of votes next time as well? (22 this time)
If you're interested, you could even go as far as showing the percentage of voters that voted for a particular option. (36% voted for nr6)

Marvin - - Parent

Yes, I can include the total number of votes cast. Totting up a few tiny integers for you is an excellent use of my mental capacity. Do you find percentages useful when the total votes is considerably under 100?

And no, I have never been interested in any of these polls.

Monte - - Parent

Here I am, brain the size of a planet. Count they tell me. Call that job satisfaction,'cause I don't.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

It's not so much about a percentage as it is about quickly seeing that about one third of the voters voted for number 6, which is not easy to see right now. Of course, as a statistic it is near meaningless with such few participants.

Lisa Dale -

Hello, first time user, looking forward to the possibilities. Juggling Love :)

Maria - - Parent

Hi Lisa! :) Welcome to The Edge, nice to see you here.

Orinoco - - Parent

Welcome aboard! What sort of juggling are you into?

Dee - - Parent

Welcome to the Edge Lisa... thanks for supplying me with coffee at the EJC!

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on EJCs (and what sort of thoughts you have had post the organising workshop hosted by the EJA).

Brook Roberts -

21st September 2013, at Bristol juggling convention. One my passing resources I take to conventions is James' sheet of passing siteswaps (, with 4 handed siteswaps grouped into categories. In discussion with someone (who eludes me now), I claim an amusing challenge might be to try and do all of the siteswaps on the sheet, with some rules about what 'completing' a pattern means. Some basic rules are drawn up - 8 rounds to a clean finish for period 3 siteswaps, 6 rounds to a clean finish for period 5 or 7, holds must be active and flipped, and a few others.

Keen and eager, I accost various people at the convention to tick off patterns, redoing completions if the pattern was a bit messy, teaching people new patterns and e.g. ticking off 966 (7 club 3 count) with someone who had never tried the pattern before. Danny is keen to motor through some with me, and he suggests it would be amusing to have various achievements like in video games - an achievement for completing your first pattern with me, an achievement for completing an entire section (we promptly find an easy section with only 4 patterns and complete it), one for getting a pattern in every section, and so on.

Back home from the convention, excited about my new incredibly nerdy challenge, I decide I should keep an electronic copy (rather than just ticking off on the sheet) of my progress, since I know how often I lose things. I make a few auto stats keeping things. One thing it tells me is how many patterns are on the sheet. Whenever I have shown the sheet to people on papre and asked how many patterns there are, they guess about 100, somewhere in the 80-200 range. It turns out there are 534! It also turns out there 202 sync patterns (actually 101, but the two sides do different things, and I decided I should do both sides), which on reflection don't look as fun as the others. On closer examination (and in discussion with James') it becomes apparent that some of the sections are somewhere between hard and impossible. He laughs when I tell him of the idea of doing all of them and points at the '8 clubs with zaps' section. Zaps, 2.5p's, are very fast passes, and there are plenty of very hard 5 and 6 club patterns with zaps - it's doubtful if anyone has ever tried any of the 14 patterns in that section, or if anyone is capable of trying them.

I plough on regardless, making fun progress. At one point I make a strong concerted effort over many sessions to make progress towards my first 9 club pattern, a89, with Alex, a juggler near me. Just as we get close, he moves away! But at the next convention, where we have set aside the entire morning to finally nail this, it takes about 4 attempts, and a milestone feels reached. It starts to get harder however, and the pool of people I can do the patterns with shrinks. Getting new people on the sheet is a fun goal, but the skill someone has to have to get on the sheet grows. The enormity of the task dawns, and while for well over a year I manage to keep my average above 1 pattern per day, it gets harder. As I get to around 40%, motivation drops, the realisation that I'm not even halfway through grows and the knowledge that almost all of the remaining patterns are harder than almost those I've done is daunting.

For over a year, progress is slow. I feel lost in the middle of the sheet. At conventions people ask me how the sheet is going, and it always feels disappointing to admit I've not done much recently. For a while I don't have a regular passing partner who can plough through the sheet with me.

Eventually though, I get over 60%, and I'm counting down rather than up. The feel is a bit different - I only do the patterns with an increasing small and able group of partners, and there's no chance of me redoing messy runs - I take any clean finish I can, in some cases fudging the timing way beyond sensible to cram a pattern to completion. I have increasing esoteric knowledge of ways patterns will be difficult, and regularly describe what the difficulties and solutions to doing a certain siteswap will be to my partner - before we even try it once. As I get closer to my goal, motivation increases, but there's always this worry that at some point the patterns become fundamentally impossible, that at some point progress will dramatically slowdown. I guess that this might happen at about 80%, or 85%, and that after that every single pattern will become a monumental effort.

Today I just ticked over 85%, and the pattern that took me there was a8958. It was the first ever pattern I achieved from the 8 clubs with zaps section of the sheet, the only section that until today I had failed to get a single pattern from. And more than that, it proved that I could get the patterns in that section, and that progress is still possible. To get there, I had to train zaps repeatedly with the same partner, Cameron, for the last month, but we removed a slew of 6 and 7 club zap patterns in the process.

I'm now at 85.02% done, with 80 patterns left. 39 different jugglers have helped me get here, although over 50% of the entire sheet (not just those I've done) has been done by just 4 passers. The majority of patterns left are sync patterns, and the majority that aren't sync are zap patterns - there are precious few 'normal' patterns left, and I'm not rushing to do those!

It's not always clear that I enjoy ticking the patterns off sometimes, nor whether doing 454 (and counting) different siteswaps and juggling conventions has caused me to sometimes ignore other, possibly better (!) activities or passing patterns. That week in Bristol, I think I would still decide to embark on this quest, but possibly I would do it better with some forewarning of just how ludicrous this rather pointless task would be. But I'm increasing excited about seeing the end, and increasing determined to push forwards and actually complete this gigantic task, that many quite knowledgeable passers thought was difficult almost to the point of impossibility.

In case anyone read this far:
a) well done
b) shows the patterns I have completed so far, and the names and summary tabs show some stats about my progress
c) is the 8 club with zap pattern. It looks, er, like a lot of the other patterns I do
d) Cameron and I warm up with Holy Grail now, so we filmed a long run -
e) is my post from when I got to 50%
f) If you think you can do one of the remaining patterns, are not on the sheet and I don't know you, let me know :)


Brook Roberts - - Parent

The longest post I ever make, and there's a major grammar error on the first line :S Fancy fixing that someone, and making me a bit more satisfied with my monologue?

lukeburrage - - Parent

I'm so happy you and Cameron found each other.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Worth pointing out that of the 80, 8 are invalid and one doesn't involve any actual passing...

I think of the ones left, about 10 are just too hard. You seem to have actually ticked one of these patterns off so maybe I am underestimating how much you and Cameron in particular have improved.

Glad I have consumed 4 years of your life with one simple spreadsheet however!

I wish you had stats on total time attempting patterns. I know we have spent close to 2 hours on single patterns before and I would guess the average is at least 20 minutes if not more. At 20 minutes on average this would give you 6.3 solid days to get the 454 patterns.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I was surprised to see I had only ticked off six patterns with Brook, as it felt like we put in a few hours of time at Bungay a few years ago. But if the average is about 20 minutes, then that seems about right. Although, if I remember correctly, one of them was a double ended pattern and we both did both ends, so the second version might have taken less time.

Now I want to try a seven or eight club zap pattern.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

56789 and 96956 are my favorites with 7. Both have a nice flow compared with some of the uglier patterns

Maria - - Parent

Oh, now I want to try, too... Should work a bit on my zaps.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

a5695 was one that I quite enjoyed as well.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Triple self, zap, self, triple pass, zap? Do you have a video?

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Triple self, self, zap, zap, double pass.
No, I've videoed very few of the patterns so far. Maybe I'll do it as part of my warm up with Cameron next time we do zaps though, now I've been reminded of it.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I think you should start the list again and get a video of every pattern.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Six is quite a few :) We got at least one of those at EJC I think?

James suggested some nice patterns, if you just want to try any 7 club zap pattern though, 885 is far easier that almost any of the other 7 club zap patterns. I feel like 885, 975 and 56789 were the only ones I'd regularly tried outside the sheet.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Ye of little faith, still! All the 8 with zaps will be hard work, but I think fundamentally doable, although maybe more like projects now. We failed the collect of 9a5 yesterday, so another will go soon :)

Yeah, I wish I had collected all sorts of things from the start. I think the mean and median would be very different here - there were quite a few that went quite fast, and then a few way out that I treated much more like projects (a89 when I ticked that off, and a8958 were both concerted efforts over multiple sessions). I actually ticked of 5p34 first time with Rhonda although that's a bit of an anomaly - we had been doing it anyway, and then I remembered it was on the sheet, so the first time after that we landed the collect.

thatguywhojuggles -

Hello! My name is Walter Beals. Jon asked me to introduce myself here. I've been juggling since 1993. For the past 10 years I've been performing with Forty Fingers & a Missing Tooth. Sadly Britt, after 10 years, has left for graduate school, so we are down 10 fingers. But the remaining 3 of us still perform. Since Britt had the missing tooth, I guess you can now call us Thirty Fingers and a Missing Missing Tooth!

We've been organizing a juggling festival every year for the last several years. This year is our 7th Annual Asheville Juggling Festival. The festival will be Sept 22-24th. More information can be found at:

This is the second juggling festival I've been part of founding. I was the sole founder of The Humboldt Juggling Festival, going into its 18th year, and I helped create the Asheville Juggling Festival with the other members of FF&MT.

I hope you can make it!

Orinoco - - Parent

Welcome to the Edge Walter & thanks for adding your event to the database. Seeing as you have apparently managed it twice, any secrets to successfully setting up a long running festival?

thatguywhojuggles - - Parent

I was a huge fan of the Lodi Juggling Festival back in its day. I would say both the festivals I've organized/helped organize were loosely modeled on that festival (minus the camping.)

I organized the 1st Humboldt Festival by myself, but after the first year, other jugglers pitched in and started helping out. By the 4th festival, it was a smooth running machine. I would say the success of that festival was that the school has a well established juggling club that is able to keep the festival going, and has lots of resources from the school including space.

The Asheville Juggling Festival is going smoothly because I work well with my fellow "fingers" and we have been together for over 10 years, so it was easy to keep doing it each year. We've been lucky so far having a space to do the festival, but after this year, we will have to find a new space. :(

EricS - - Parent

I love the Asheville fest, I've gone the last two years. I'm sorry to miss this year (I'm attending Flow Camp for the first time) but I will be back!

Maria - - Parent

Hi Walter! Nice to see you on the Edge. :)

It's Him -

Today Milton Keynes Juggling Club sometimes known as Jugglers Anonymous and/or the juggley love club is 25 years old!

Which means I've spent half my life going to this club.

I'm curious to know how many clubs out there are older? I know there will be a few in the UK but elsewhere?


Maria - - Parent

"My" club is younger, but it's 20 years this year. (Fritidsjonglörerna, Stockholm.) Maybe I should try to find out the date so we can celebrate. :)

Mike Moore - - Parent

The 25th annual Waterloo Festival happened earlier this year, so I think it's safe to say it's older. No idea how much older, though.

The Void - - Parent

Congratulations on both feats!
#Altern8 in Bristol is older by a few years.

glomph - - Parent

Flying Teapot's the Uni of Sheffield circus society celebrated 30 years this year!

York Jugglers - - Parent


York Jugglers is also 25 years old this year (October to be more precise) but we don't have any members who have been going for all 25 years.

charlieh - - Parent

I first went to Cambridge Community Circus (then named Patchwork Circus) in 1992 so it's at least 25 years old, and rumor has it that there was a juggling club run by some of the same people in the late 80s.

Orinoco - - Parent

Turns out TWJC will be 25 later this month!

The top 10 oldest active UK clubs with a known established date in the Edge database:

Nottingham Juggling Club (1980)
Flying Teapots (1985)
Hullabaloo (1988)
Altern8 (1989)
Glasgow Juggling Club (1990)
Imperial College Juggling Society (1990)
Camcircus, Milton Keynes, Tunbridge Wells, York Jugglers (1992)

Interesting because the BJC is 30 years old. I expected there to be more than 4 clubs (Balls up in Portsmouth was established in 1987 but is alas no more) to be active at the time to provide an audience to make a national event viable. I'm sure there were clubs that predate internet records. Or is it that annual juggling events produce local juggling clubs rather than the other way around?

The oldest club we have on record is Santelli, NL which has allegedly been going since 1962.

Bosco - - Parent

Hastings Juggling Club started in 1990. Russell Watson was the original motivator. Still going but monthly. It's been responsible for much - marriages, break ups, new careers, making people happy, an escape from the world we live in and more, just like the other juggling clubs around the world I'm sure.

Where would we be without a juggling club?

Orinoco - - Parent

I hope HCC wasn't responsible for the break ups! Although come to think of it I did leave someone partly because she thought what my juggling friends & I did was 'silly'.

Bosco - - Parent

I'm sure it was lack of juggling causing break ups.

emead -

Over 40 years old, juggling 7 balls/beanbags...

Looking to gather together 40 somethings working on 7 balls/beanbags... would love to share some stories/thoughts/ideas. :)

DavidCain - - Parent

I'll turn 48 next month and I can still juggle 7 balls, although I'll confess that about a year ago I stopped working on it daily. I can still do it when I try, but it's not as consistent as it was. I've never been great at 7, with my personal best being only 70 catches. I have qualified 8 balls and flashed 9, but I'm not really much of a ball juggler. I can still flash 7 clubs, which I think is pretty decent for an old fat guy with health issues. So, that's where I'm at. I'm still learning new stuff all the time, but it's just not stuff where I'm trying to keep up with the 16 year olds.
David Cain

7b_wizard - - Parent

Doesn't match: >50yo, going for 9b.

No, serious, ..

Hi emead, matches for me (serious for 7b at about 36yo, now daily practise).

Joerg - - Parent

Hi emead,
I am 46 and can qualify 7 balls (pb=20-30 catches). I have (re-)started juggling 4 years ago, learning 4 ball tricks and siteswaps. After about half a year I have learned the 5 ball cascade. I mainly juggle self-made Russian balls. Progress with 7b is very slow compared with all other tricks. Now, I focus more on body throws, box variations, and passing (clubs).

Yves Bolognini - - Parent

43, will start working on 7 balls pretty soon. Solid 5, taking juggling class since last week. We all need challenges, right?

emead - - Parent

Wow! Good to hear there's more than a few of us. :)

I know one thing that has surprised me is that I never seem to get that "one day" where I best 30 catches and then the next day it's 40 and the next 70, etc. That happened for 5-balls, but 7-balls just seems to be one and a tenth step forward, one step back......

EricS - - Parent

49, solid 5, occasional qualify of 6, 7 still eludes me. Mostly I juggle homemead Russians (90g)

Orinoco - - Parent

Hi emead, welcome aboard. I'm (counts on fingers) 38 so not far off age wise. I'm regularly at around 20-30 catches, 7 balls is definitely a skill I'd like to keep into my 40s & beyond.

Maria - - Parent

I'm 37 and haven't learned to juggle 5 balls yet... I will, though. Counting on having many years left to improve my juggling.

emead - - Parent

Awesome! Keep at it. It definitely takes more time than you expect (based on your history), but keep at it! Post your progress! Helps to have a sympathetic ear. ;)

Maria - - Parent

Yeah, I think learning 5 balls will take a while, since I don't juggle balls very often. All the scheduled juggling practice is usually spent on clubs. I'm planning to learn 5 clubs, too, but that is difficult and there are many other things I want to learn, too, so I don't spend a lot of time on that either. Plus a full time job makes it difficult to find enough time for juggling at all.
Oh, and if there is such a thing as having the "talent" for juggling, I don't think I have it. You can get pretty far with determination and lots of work though. :)
Thanks for the encouragement. :)

Kelhoon - - Parent

I started at a similar age, it took me a lot of work to get 5 balls up to 100 catches, I let it slip after that though, I'd be lucky to get 20 catches nowadays.

But ... it can be done, keep at it.

Nikita -

Hey guys!

I just recently joined the forum and I have few questions about record logging.
Hope you can help me :)

So the thing I'm confused with, is order of throws in siteswap notation.

Lets say I want to record 56 throws of 12345 (we all know this trick, and there is no questions that it is called 12345)
So I record 56 3b 12345.
My actual throws started with 3. Like 3451234512... So why do I record 12345 instead of 34512 then ?
12345 and 34512 considered different tricks by site engine, but they actually are the same one.
And how would I record this trick with additional 6 throw ? Is it 1234560 or 0123456 ?
Do we have any rules of resolving situations like this ?

Also, do you count 2 and 0 as a catch ?
And is there a way to tag people in posts ?

lukeburrage - - Parent

The convention among jugglers is to typically write down or say a siteswap starting with the highest value. Sure, you might get into the pattern with different throws, or start the loop at a different place, but for clear and easy communication, it's nice if everyone sticks to the same order for the same pattern.

This means 97531 is always easy to recognise, rather than each time the reader having to decode that 31975 and 19753 and 75319 are all the same pattern.

In your case, you are wrong that there is no question that your pattern is called 12345, as you yourself then explain. The convention is to call it 51234.

As for counting catches, with running a siteswap pattern it's often easier to count the cycles of the pattern. For example, here is a video of the b97531 record. Catches aren't mentioned, but "151 rounds" is:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I've never heard of this convention. 51234 sounds strange. Why not start a siteswap at its easiest point of entry? If it is a ground state siteswap, it's always obvious. 45123 makes much more sense to me than 51234. Obviously it's going to be 97531 and not 19753
Besides, how do you solve for siteswaps with recurring high numbers? 777171 could be written in 4 correct ways then?

I'm not an expert on states, but the excited state pattern 891 doesn't start with the highest number either. I believe that the easiest entry is 778, wheras the easiest entry for 918 is 7788?

"and there is no questions that it is called 12345" I think siteswap wise it should be called 45123, but 12345 is the obvious style choice. Which indeed makes counting tricky. You could link 45123 to the 12345 trick in the record section, claim that your version is the correct one and ask the current record holders for clarification of their counting method.
For myself I would also count cycles, not catches, but I understand that in the record section that doesn't work... I'm sure someone who uses the record section actively can comment on this?

peterbone - - Parent

The convention is actually to write the siteswap in numerical order. So 777171 would be the only correct way to write it. I assume that the reason is that it was convenient for early siteswap generators to write them in that format without having to work out the states. Writing them with highest values first is most likely to result in a low state start, unless you work out the states.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Well, Peter already answered this. It's the highest numerical value if converted into a single number. 777171 starts with 777 which is higher than 771, 717, 171 or 717.

As for this: "I'm not an expert on states, but the excited state pattern 891 doesn't start with the highest number either. I believe that the easiest entry is 778, wheras the easiest entry for 918 is 7788?"

Let's write those down.

Into 891 is 778? So that's 778891891891...

Into 918 is 7788? So that's 778891891891...

Yeah, you've just come up with the same thing!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course they're both the same thing! But that still doesn't tell you whether you should write 891 or 918, right? And my generator & jugglewiki do call it 891, not 918...

Orinoco - - Parent

I've never heard of that convention either. I've only ever heard 12345 called 12345. Searching for 12345 vs the other permutations on rec.juggling & the Edge (both the forum & the records section), 12345 is by far the most prevalent.

If two siteswap records are entered into the Edge records system that are a rotation of each other & provided you have built up enough 'experience' by entering records you will have the option to merge those two tricks together. Once merged you can enter the trick whichever way you like but they will be listed & compared together.

At present no-one has entered a permutation of 12345 to link to.

Maria - - Parent

I have heard of that convention, and I would certainly write any 4-handed siteswaps that way (I believe that most of the passers do that).

When logging my juggling practice, however, I usually write ground-state siteswaps in the order I do them, so 51234 would be written as 45123, since that way I can say that I did 4 rounds and back to cascade or something like that. (While if I wrote it as 12345 or 51234, the same number of actual throws and catches would only contain 3 rounds and the first and last throws would count as transition throws...).

I don't log siteswap records so it doesn't matter in that case, but if I did, I'd feel that doing for example ...3333345123451234512333333.... would be 15 catches of 45123, but only 13 catches of 12345. (If I do active 2s, otherwise I would not count them.)

Someone might also have noticed that I sometimes log both 55050 and 50505 in the same practice session... Or 552 and 525. In that case, it's just different starts and has little to do with how to write siteswaps and more to do with me wanting to see in my log entry that I actually did two different starts, but being too lazy to use a lot of words. (55050 would be starting with one club in one hand and two in the other, and throwing from the hand with one club first. 50505 would be starting with 3 in the same hand.)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Same here .. heard of that convention and use it for logging records, but in a given context write them as then makes more sense.

The Void - - Parent

I've heard of that convention and yet also commonly heard patterns referred to in ascending order, eg 12345. (Also the convention for writing multiplex throws also follows the "highest possible number" convention. eg [543], not [345]. I learned that from Sean Gandini.)

lukeburrage - - Parent

In the single case of the pattern 12345, yes, that order is the most common by far. It feels like the natural way of saying it. However, it's in a class of patterns where throw values increase by one until it drops to the first number again, and in most other cases, the higher number is said first. Examples:

423 not 234
534 not 345
645 not 456

It's only because it feels natural to say the number 1 first that people do so! And it *is* so satisfying to say it that way! In conversation, I've no problem with saying 12345. I think it's more important to have clear communication between two people than to follow strict rules.

But in the case of making a list or database entry, I think it's best to stick with the convention. And if there's any confusion, explain the convention, not make exceptions for something that just happens to scratch a weird cognitive itch.

The Void - - Parent


Kelhoon - - Parent

What if others (like me) find it easier to start it with the 3 ? i.e. 34512

There are many patterns that people don't start the same way, so the easy way for you isn't necessarily the easy way for others, hence the need for the convention as discussed by Peter and Luke to help everyone recognise a given siteswap from all it's possible cycles.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yes, this is the whole point. When ordering lists, the person reading it should know where to look, and also not think they are missing anything, and also not worrying that two things in different places are duplicates. This is why bookshops and libraries have settled on (within sections) ordering books by the author's second name, and then the first name, and then by book title/series title and number. If you went into a bookshop, and some books were ordered by the title, and some by the author name, and some by the colour of the spine, everyone would be super annoyed.

In the case of siteswaps in a list, or in a database like the records section, the obvious thing to do is order them by A: object number and then by B: numerical value.

This is important because, just looking at the siteswap out of context, it's impossible for most people to know the state of the pattern, or how they would transition into it from the cascade or fountain, or any number of other things.

And it's really important not to have 777171, 771717, 717177, 171777, 717771 an 177717 ALL listed in different places, or else the list would be unmanageable! You'd also have to have 441, 414 and 144 listed. And every other iteration of every other pattern, just in case another juggler liked starting on a different beat or had a different transition into the patter,

If someone is confused, it's much better to explain the convention to that person (eg. "in the book shop we order by author surname") than it is to accommodate their preference at the expense of making the system more complicated and confusing for everyone else.

Orinoco - - Parent

With regards to counting numbers. Don't count 0s, & only count 2s if they are active (thrown); if you are just holding the prop don't count it as a catch.

There currently isn't a way to tag people in a post, I don't think traffic is really high enough to warrant the feature? If you just type someone's name in all capitals I'm sure they'll get the message.

Nikita - - Parent

Thank you, Orinoco.

Not counting 0 makes and passive 2's makes sense. I just realized than I counted number of cycles and multiplied it by number of digits in siteswap. But it turned out to be wrong.

Taging people look nice. As I see it. Just Highlighted name makes it clear to random reader that message has direct recipient. It also would allow to send emails to tagged people if they want it, for example. I don't think everyone read forum from end to end. But it is minor.

I'm much more interested in resolving my siteswap issue.
You mentioned an option to merge two tricks together. I have not found info about it anywhere, could you please comment on it ?
If there is a possibility to merge tricks and make two different entries behave like one trick would really solve it.
But also may be i't is possible to pre process siteswaps programmatically to make all versions of one trick recorded with same string. (like if you enter 315 it is still shows up as 531)
I'm not sure if it is a right way.

peterbone - - Parent

Go to any trick in the records section and look at the bottom of the page for "Is this trick the same as another? Link them together". However, based on what Orin said earlier it may not be available unless you've added a lot of records.

Orinoco - - Parent

...& that link will appear if you've logged more than 10 records. This is just an arbitrary threshold so that linking is only handled by people who are at least a little familiar with the records system. I couldn't remember what the threshold was when I posted earlier so just had to look up the code!

Nikita - - Parent

Okay, that explains why I have not found it :)

vazonun -

I have come to the conclusion, I'm not a choreographer.

I have been juggling for quite some time now... But I would consider myself as a sports juggler. I feel that it's time to take my skill, make it into something more entertaining and engaging for myself and others.

Long story short... I want to be more of a performer.

So, this is where I stand

3b Many tricks very smooth and consistent, including: Box, 3up 360 pirouette, Factory, Mill's-Mess, and eyes closed.
4b Many tricks smooth and consistent, including: Full Shower, Wide Columns, 534 and 7531.
5b Few tricks smooth and consistent, including: 1up-4up, (6x,4)*, 3up 360 pirouette, and Half Shower
6b Fountain consistent 24+ catches

3c Few tricks smooth and consistent, including: Mill's-Mess, Flats, Flair with both hands, and Kick-up into 4c
4c Few tricks smooth and consistent, including: 53, 534, Sync, A-Sync, Singles and Tripples.

I juggle to music every time I practice, I have the feel of what tricks I can do and when I should do them depending on the song that's playing... But I find I just improvise every time. If I drop, I leave the song play on, then I join in with the music when I feel like it. There is absolutely no structure with what I do.

So, the thing is that I have a song that I wish to perform to, it has a changing tempo, is just over three minutes long, and it's very catchy... But I am hopeless at choreographing what I want to do. I write down the tricks that I think I should include. I try to perform what I have written, execute the first trick then immediately forget the list and start improvising again. I then take a glance at my list, and then realise that almost half of the song has passed already, and I'm flapping around like a chicken.

The other thing is, I believe that I should include a few little breaks in the middle of the act to either give the audience a time to reflect and appreciate what I have just completed, or give me time to change props, but I have no idea when I should have them: After a big trick? After a series of little tricks? A different fancy finish every time?

So basically, I'm asking for any advice from you performers out there. How can I develop my routine, how can I make a show out of what I can do?

Much love to you all,


Orinoco - - Parent

Who do you want to be performing for? That will affect what direction you need to go in. If you are performing for other jugglers your approach needs to be very different to if you are performing for non-jugglers.

I've seen every trick you've listed before & can do most of them myself. What makes you unique? What can you do that makes your 3b box different from everybody else's 3b box? If the answer's nothing then I'm probably not going to be interested. The only one trick that jumps out at me on your list is 4b wide columns. How wide? If it's more than 'one step' I'm interested!

If you are performing to non-jugglers any one of those tricks (even just a 3-ball cascade) could be something they have never seen before making you the most unique juggler they've ever seen. That certainly doesn't mean performing for non-jugglers is easier. Jugglers are quite happy to watch juggling. Non-jugglers want to see entertainment which is not the same thing.

I'm going to try to explain why you should choreograph your routine which is not going to help you to break out of the improvising habit, but might help encourage you to put in the effort required to do so.

If you are improvising & doing something different each time, you have no real way to identify what an audience appreciates. Was it the pattern, the transition into or out of the trick that got that gasp? Think of it like designing a science experiment. Your routine should be almost identical, just make one change at a time. If that change consistently gets a better reaction keep it in.

If you watch a seasoned street performer. That witty one-liner that they used to put down a heckle? The timing, the phrasing, the intonation will almost certainly have been crafted to perfection through many years of repetition. The build up to, the execution, the reaction after that finale trick will have gone through thousands of iterations in front of audience.

You have a list of tricks. Well done, that's more of a start than most people ever make. Memorise it without juggling it, then practise juggling it. Then find an audience & perform it, pay attention to their reactions - did someone try to applaud a trick but gave up because there was no pause in the action? Those audience reactions are the hints that tell you what changes to make.

All that said though, improvisation is a useful skill to have there will always be a situation that you can't account for or something you haven't thought of.

Orinoco - - Parent

Oh, & a quick note about choreographing to music. One of my first performances was a diabolo routine at a TWJC Christmas show. I had started with some music & a list of tricks just like you have. After the show a chap named Phil came up to me & asked, "How did you choreograph all those tricks to be in time with the music?" I hadn't. Any connection between the timing of my tricks & the music was entirely coincidental but his perception that I had was what mattered!

vazonun - - Parent

Thank you very much for the advice!

Yes, I suppose I didn't specify who I was going to be performing for and where. I want to perform mainly for non jugglers, more of a busking role. I have multiple costume ideas, multiple song genres, and multiple prop styles.

So, my next step is going to be reform the list I have drafted up, and I'll memorise the order of the tricks. But what I'll also start to draft up a list of the styles I could use... Whether it is skipping around the stage, over emphasising a "big" trick, or flashing a cheeky wink at someone in the audience.

I understand that patter and wit will take years to master, and I am more than willing to accept that my first performance isn't going to be perfect, but I'm dying to find out.

Little Paul - - Parent


Drop the music, bin it completely. Busking is all about making a connection with the individuals in the crowd, making them gasp/laugh/react in any way other than walking off. Doing that without talking is *harder* than doing it with words.

Go watch a load of street shows, try not to copy whole bits, but pay attention to and copy the show structure. There are phases to a street show, gathering a crowd, building, filling, final trick, hatting. The structure is there because it works.

That structure makes choreography easier, because it gives you bones to hang the tricks off.

You will suck

Performance is a skill in itself, it has to be learned and practiced. Unfortunately that has to be done infrint of an audience.

You will suck, but every show will have a glimmer of not sucking in it - take that, fan it into a flame, fan that flame into an inferno and you're golden :)

It's Him - - Parent

Furthermore busking may not be your thing. It requires a particular mindset to be a busker. You have to build a show around continuously asking for money, to be successful. You can't just have one hat line unless you want to starve. There is a ton of information on the internet about this being a good start but there are a load of sites.

There are many other outlets for performing jugglers but very few require just your juggling skills. Professional jugglers are business people first and finding the niche that earns you money is an ongoing task.


Daniel Simu - - Parent

Good luck busking! Out of all the performance styles/venues that are available, busking is the one for which actual juggling skills are the least important. It all comes to your ability to sell those 3 tricks that you're going to do. This challenge would teach you to perform for sure

If you do want to juggle, but want to be on the street, I can recommend traffic lights. A clean sequence of tricks works fine here, and as a bonus it is not a requirement to consider sound and costume etc ;)

Maria - - Parent

Someone tried traffic lights in Sweden and got told off by the police, who apparently had never heard of anyone performing at traffic lights before. (It was in the newspaper.)

Is there really time to both perform and collect money before the lights turn green? I think that was the main issue with the one who tried it "here", that he was still collecting money and thus slowing down the cars when it was green.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

When I did it, I had a traffic light with a 1.5 minute cycle. I would perform for about 30 seconds, collect for 30 seconds, and then the cars would drive for 30 seconds. However, often I would still be stuck on the road while people started driving, and then someone would have to slow down for me in order for me to make it to the shoulder. That would happen like one out of 5 times or so.
Also, every now and then I would be really lucky and there would be many cars trying to give me money, if those cars were willing to slow down the traffic behind them, yes you'd slow down traffic. But often these cars weren't willing, so if you would reach them too late they would drive anyway.

But sure, you're on the road where you're not supposed to be, you're standing in relatively dangerous positions... If I were a cop and had never seen this practise, I would tell people off too...

The best places to start doing this are places that are already used to beggars or window washers. They have come to "accept" people walking along the traffic light, but then being the juggler you are the fun and original version, not the annoying one. Everybody happy.

I haven't dared to try here in the Netherlands. In Rotterdam I know of one spot where a beggar walks, but I'm still convinced that people would be too baffled to get out money in time. Plus, I find it scarier to pretend I'm the quirky guy when I'm not a non-native/traveler. Being outside your own country gives you some bonus points.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Busking is a good way to learn a lot about performing very fast, but having done it, I'd recommend against anyone spending much time on it, aiming to do it long term or even put the effort into getting good at it. I have never met a more miserable crowd than a group of long time street performing jugglers. It's a creatively deadening form of entertainment mixed with cut-throat competition for pitches, material, and promotion. Know what you are getting yourself in to!

vazonun - - Parent

Thank you all, for all of the advice you have been able to provide me.

An additional note:

I am not looking to make juggling a reliable source of income, nor am I looking to make it a full-time major commitment. I am in a position where I work away on a ship for 4 months (With plenty of juggle practice time), then it's followed by 3 months paid leave, so I wouldnt need it to be a great money-maker.

In my three months paid leave I love to travel, I find myself in cities, on beaches, and in places where I barely know the language. So what I am actually looking to do is just create an eye-catching routine that brings smiles to the people around me. I wouldn't need anything in return, I would be doing it purely for the entertainment of others (and myself of course).

lukeburrage - - Parent

Sounds like a good life! I love the idea of not having to do stuff for money, and then not having to follow the normal rules or guidelines in that direction.

If you just want to juggle some nice routines, but aren't asking for money or even perform in a traditional sense, why not just learn the routine of someone else? In doing so you'll learn a lot about choreography from inside someone else's head.

vazonun - - Parent

It's a good life for a 23 year old with no family commitments, but it's not for everyone.

I thought the number one unwritten rule of a performer was never to use someone else's performance routine? Or have I got this completely wrong?

lukeburrage - - Parent

i don't mean you should perform someone else's routine, but learn the choreography. Once you get a feel of what kind of things flow together by copying the masters, you'll know much better what you can develop yourself.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Welcome to the world of performing :).

Keep in mind that any (juggling) performance is more than a list of tricks being executed! Other things to consider choreographing:
Position and movement on stage, movement and position of body, music, acting, costume, props, colors, events, jokes, etc.

I've seen enough juggling to not care for a routine of common tricks. But if you have a good/fun/untested idea for one of the things mentioned above, and let that influence your juggling (for example, put on 30 t-shirts as your costume and see what you can still do, or skip around in circles on stage and bring that movement in harmony with your juggling), and you've got yourself an interesting performance.
Now, if you've never performed much, those things may seem hard and it sounds much easier to "hide" behind the juggling you already know... But if you're serious about learnig performing you'll have to accept that the juggling you do in training might not directly be interesting on stage.

Once you've got this extra thing in your act that makes your performance interesting, the tricks will hopefully soon fall into place and order.

Good luck!

7b_wizard -

How much do you  a c c e p t   h e l p,  hints or helpful feedback for improving? (no matter wherefrom, video tutorial, or person to person, shown or told or written, ororor)

  1. I am stubborn and want to make my own way all on my own even biting myself through plateaus. (thus doing purely my own way, maybe leading to my genuine 100% own style)
  2. I usually want to find my own way through and reject any help, but I thankfully take help when really badly stuck for a long time.
    .. or ..
    Practical feedback rather irritates or puzzles me, brings me out, so I'd generally prefer doing without.
    [ both options = can take, or want little help ]
  3. I am happy for help when I asked for or when the hint is good and applies.
  4. I am happy for any help I can get - I'll try everything out and filter what applies for me.
  5. Without constant help, always a teacher there to guide me, or a good resource (book, eBook, video tutorial series, ..) I would not a whit get anyhwere ahead.
  6. [ other .. no one helps .. \ .. help is always bad .. \ .. I'm immune against improving, no matter how good the help is .. \ .. There's nothing to improve - my 3b cascade is perfectly fluent. :o} ]

This is a competition thread which ran from 13th May 2017 to 22nd May 2017. View results.

Maria - - Parent

I voted 4, I'll try most things suggested by better jugglers, but I don't keep working on it if it's too boring (for example, I have not learned 4c fountain on singles, even though I have been told it could help improve my 4c fountain on doubles). I don't really come up with many ideas by myself, either. I mean, I can come up with a new combination of throws, but I don't really invent anything completely new.

As a club passer who usually passes with someone better than me, option 5 would not have been wrong either.

Maria - - Parent

...and I have not learned 5 ball cascade, even though I'm trying to learn 5 clubs.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'm somewhere in the 3.5 camp. If I can be particular about the phrasing "when the hint is good and applies" to be "[...] as interpreted by some all-knowing being," then I'm comfortable with it. Sometimes I don't realize the hint is good until a while after it was given.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hmhm, I see; maybe we can meet on "if a hint gets you thinking or rumors around in your mind not knowing what rhyme to make of it", then it can still either puzzle and irritate you beyond threshold, or else, you can be ``happy´´ on there being a new way waiting to be discovered some given time later. Or even else, it's stored somewhere in the unconscious until it pops up again at a given moment or remains there forever until the ``hard disk´´ (=memory) is cleaned and overwritten. ( Which still leaves the decision "happy or not about such an unclear hint" to you :o] ) .. but, yeah, if an all-knowing being knows before, read as: "If a hint will apply, later (and I will be happy about it, later)."

.. or just read "3." and "4." as:

3. Happy for help "under condition". (not "any and all the help you can get" unrestrictedly)
4. "Give it all over to me, I'll sort it out." = Any and all the help there might be is welcome. (without any restriction)

Basically the scale goes from 1. "no input whatsoever" over 2. "little help accepted", 3. ``Some´´ or ``a good deal´´ or "under condition" help accepted, 4. All, every, any help (more than) welcome, upto 5. "only with help, can't do without".

7b_wizard - - Parent

btw i'm not sure what to vote myself .. been through like all of the options 1. to 4. before, i think, and now it seems to "depend" on which pattern, which ajuggling (few ball stuff, e.g. Kraken, or else numbers techniques). Even 6., "I don't get info on what exactly is going in the brain and focus and where attention lays in distinct milliseconds." is partly true.

Guess I'll land on 3. or 4. too, as there's yet so much to discover (clubs, 5b s'swaps, selfthrows and fountains, more body range e.g. bbb, for me), .. why not spare time and effort by getting all and any help I can get to get where I want sooner.

Marvin - - Parent

This poll has now ended. The results are:

  1.   I am stubborn and want to make my own way all on my own even biting myself through plateaus. (thus doing purely my own way, maybe leading to my genuine 100% own style) (0 votes)
  2.   I usually want to find my own way through and reject any help, but I thankfully take help when really badly stuck for a long time.
    .. or ..
    Practical feedback rather irritates or puzzles me, brings me out, so I'd generally prefer doing without.
    [ both options = can take, or want little help ] (1 vote)
  3.   I am happy for help when I asked for or when the hint is good and applies. (4 votes)
  4.   I am happy for any help I can get - I'll try everything out and filter what applies for me. (4 votes)
  5.   Without constant help, always a teacher there to guide me, or a good resource (book, eBook, video tutorial series, ..) I would not a whit get anyhwere ahead. (0 votes)
  6.   [ other .. no one helps .. \ .. help is always bad .. \ .. I'm immune against improving, no matter how good the help is .. \ .. There's nothing to improve - my 3b cascade is perfectly fluent. :o} ] (0 votes)

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