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GumybolzZ -

So lately I have been trying to solidify my 4ball fountain pattern. I can do the pattern just fine (8:00 record) But I'm struggling to keep the pattern in perfect shape. My hands are good at adjusting to awkward throws every here and there, but I don't like that! I want to be able to juggle the pattern without correcting throws. I am in need of advice!

emilyw - - Parent

I think this is another problem where working on short runs may help. Can you consistently do like 20 throws neatly without corrections and then finish clean? 25? 30?

If you work on increasing the length of a clean run (clean to your own standards, so no corrections), you might find it easier to identify the root causes of the wonky business, and then maybe you can start focusing more on the root cause thing(s).

noslowerdna - - Parent

Try continuously oscillating the height and speed of the pattern up and down, back and forth between lower/faster and slower/higher, maybe a range of 1 to 6 feet, or whatever you're comfortable with. The throw force and tempo variations will help to lock in your focus and accuracy.

noslowerdna - - Parent

Here's another perspective that I've often adhered to: it will naturally solidify over time, so don't bother trying to perfect it. Now you're relatively comfortable with the 4b fountain, moving on to other 4b patterns that you can't do yet (at least not for 8 minutes) such as 534, 7531, 55514, etc. is probably a more productive use of your practice time.

GumybolzZ - - Parent

Thankyou for the replies! I think i'm going to take noslowerdnas advice and move on to some 4ball siteswaps.

Mike Moore - - Parent

You may also want to try it blind. My strategy is this: do a few runs of 4-8 catches with your eyes open, but try to make it so consistent you don't need to be watching. Then don't watch!

Mats1 - - Parent

Nothing will make patterns more solid than practicing the higher numbers, so I would recommend practicing 5 to get a solid 4 ball pattern.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

Try doing the reverse fountain , and switching back and fourth, maybe even mixed fountains both ways, really made a big diffrence for me,

GumybolzZ - - Parent

Great idea, i may have to give that a go some day :P

HardAttack27 - - Parent

After u can do all those patterns including 4 ball coloums the regular fountain seems so much eaiser

Robotic juggle - - Parent

Problems like this are the hardest to fix in my opinion, and they are what Differentiate between a mediocre juggler and a world class master. the only way i know of for sure to fix it is to run the pattern over and over, or look at the pattern in a diffrent way. this is what i did way back in december of last year when i FINNALY went back and fixed my 3 ball mills mess i could do it but it was sloppy and laking the mills mess WOW factor. then i watched a video describing mills mess as an alternating two throws of the windmill trick (name i know for one hand under the other every throw)alternated from one hand to another.
hope this helps a bit

Orinoco - - Parent

You are already doing a very impressive amount of practice, I think you just need to keep it up.

Just to offer something different from everyone else: be aware that your pattern probably looks a lot better than it feels. A couple of weeks ago Simon commented on how well my 7 ball cascade just as I was thinking that it was one of the worst sessions I'd had. Ever since I started I've always thought that other people think I'm a lot better than I really am!

HardAttack27 -

I personally think juggling should be an Olympic sport! What do u guys think? Should juggling be in the Olympics yes or no? And please try and give some sort of explanation , I think is should be because gym jugglers are athletes! They train just as long and hard and put on just as good of a show, even contact juggling is a real sport I think should be included in the Olympics .

Roflcopter - - Parent

I agree completely. Especially since it's a very global sport. It would increase appreciation for it all.
I do have to disagree with contact juggling though. Although I (as a novice contact juggler) understand that it is very difficult and requires practice, I don't think that the public would really receive it well. I can hear it now.. "he's just holding a ball and moving it around!" Although a really good juggler can portray that floaty illusion, we all know what is happening.

Roflcopter - - Parent

You all have good points. I think a better thing to say is that it would make me happy if say that summer Olympics 2015 there would be technical juggling. It doesn't have to continue on but it would be extremely entertaining to see the "best" (whether you would agree or not) from each country go for old with the awe of mesmerized crowds. I think it would be nice for at least once. Perhaps though that would be something the WJF would do instead of the Olympics.

Little Paul - - Parent

"contact juggling is a real sport I think should be included in the Olympics"

It's a girls sport

https://youtu.be/HiWOxcpxVvs

thegoheads - - Parent

Wow! Awesome video, thanks for sharing.

I think peterbone's comment sums it up better than I could say it, as far as why juggling wouldn't work in the olympics. My personal problem with juggling in the olympics is if juggling became too mainstream I'm afraid it would lose some of it's magic for me. I'm sure there would be benefits too... I guess "hey, you should be in the olympics" sounds better than "hey, you should go on America's got talent!" haha.

Even when the WJF has offered decent prize money, it still doesn't draw in as many people as you would think. WJF10 will be December this year and first place will get $10,000! Plus they are doing a global regional video competition thing this year where people from all over the world can enter for a chance to win a trip here to Vegas to compete. Anyone who really likes to see juggling as a sport, WJF is the best we got. I'm hoping a lot of big names will show up this year, 10 grand would get my attention if I was good enough at the WJF tricks. Err, um.... I mean moves.

Rob van Heijst - - Parent

Okay this is the second time I see someone calling tricks moves. I'm guessing that Jason has the fear that calling juggling tricks 'tricks' will make it sound less professional. Am I right?

Little Paul - - Parent

The sports the WJF seek to emulate (gymnastics, diving, american wrestling) call the individual components "moves" so that's what the wtf calls them.

It's just a case of adopting an existing sorting terminology

Little Paul - - Parent

iphone predictive spelling for the won

Rob van Heijst - - Parent

In that perspective it makes sense.
I like the WTF lets keep that one in!

Little Paul - - Parent

It's almost as if it someone should put it on a tshirt...

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

> It's a girls sport.Yep. That notorious girl Kati Yla-Hokkala, who has been a fundamental part of The Gandini Juggling Project since its inception, was the Finnish RG champion before she turned to juggling IIRC.Yay for girls!

Little Paul - - Parent

Indeed, and had she been male she wouldn't have been allowed to compete. My intent was factual, not derogatory.

Ball/Hoop/Ribbon/Club/Rope events are female only floor events, just as Pommel Horse/Still Rings/Vault/Parallel Bars/High Bars are male only events.

Pierre Vdv - - Parent

I do totally agree with you on both juggling and contact juggling. In my opinion the problem would come from the entry selection, since every country has to choose their champions. The difficulty would be to determine a global basic level and to decide how many participants each country can bring to the olympics.

Scoring could be similar to gymnastics or ice skating (as it's often said), with marks for both the tricks and the beauty of the whole routine. But then the hard part is to name and evaluate the difficulty of every trick on earth (I mean doing it officialy with the olympic commitee). Maybe it would take two separate categories, one for the "big classics" such as huge 7 club 5 up 360 etc. and another one just for creativity, where manipulation and just the creation of totally new patterns would be rewarded. (and I still think that part of juggling is a real sport).

But all in all it would be awesome to have such a beautiful stage for juggling!

peterbone - - Parent

Absolutely not. Firstly it's nowhere near popular enough. 99% of the general public wouldn't understand it. There are lots of other non Olympic sports that are a lot more popular, like karate, climbing and rugby. Secondly it would become far too competitive. It would become like gymnastics or trampolining where there are set moves and very little room for innovation - like the WJF but a lot worse. I think that juggling is just too broad an activity for inclusion. It would have to focus a lot more on one particular aspect and that would limit the number of competitors and public interest even more.

peterbone - - Parent

By the way, this subject has come up many times in the past on rec.juggling. This one for example.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.juggling/NGr4knIEMgE/f2DLO4oPcIgJ

Little Paul - - Parent

Back in 2012, I spent a lot of the summer watching the gymnastics and the diving (for purely sporting reasons, there were no other reasons involved at all. Honest.) then once the Olympics were over I went back and re-watched some of the televised WJF competitions.

The WJF scoring made much more sense having spent all that time immersed in similar scoring methods. This escaped me completely the first time I watched the WJF.

Personally, I think that we're a long way off having the multinational structured competitions and globally recognised organisational body overseeing the sport and unifying competition rulesets etc which would be a prerequisite for it being recognised as an olympic sport - and even if we did it appears that once you get to that stage, you have to persuade the people running that organisational body to dissolve it and cede control to the IOC.

Which seems like more paperwork than any juggler I've ever met could be bothered with.

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Was the WJF as erm, inspiring, as the diving and the gymnastics? ;o)

Little Paul - - Parent

nowhere near it.

Although some of the haircuts were amusing.

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

I came close to being that juggler. About 4.5 years ago I wrote a plan to get juggling into the 2020 Olympics. I did a lot of research and made many many notes on what it would realistically entail. My plan was basically to start with numbers and/or joggling since those are the easiest to judge (and wouldn't really go against Francis Brunn's purported quip: "I don't believe in juggling competitions. It's like seeing who could paint the fastest painting!" [1]), though I did consider eventually having some sort of freestyle event [2].

I shared my idea with only one other juggling activist and did get good response, but I chickened out before sending it to all the potential committee members I had considered.

-Scott

1. http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/1/brunn.html
2. See basically any discussion on juggling as art vs sport.

Orinoco - - Parent

I think numbers juggling would be the only format that would make sense in the Olympics to a wide enough audience. The point of the Olympics is to answer the basic questions: Who can run the fastest? Who can jump the highest? Who can throw the farthest? For juggling the basic question is who can juggle the most objects?

Joggling while definitely requiring skill & athleticism will never be anything more than a novelty in the eyes of the general public.

I think those jugglers who think juggling can be a sport would like to see a competition based on rhythmic gymnastics & why not? The WJF have shown that juggling can fit that format. But then so could ballet or any other form of dancing. There are purely technical aspects to every performance art that could be measured as a sport. Should they all be Olympic sports too?

I'm not bothered whether juggling gets recognised as a sport or not. I practice my hobbies because I enjoy them, if everyone else on Earth thought that juggling was pointless, I'd still juggle. However, I'd hate to see it get to the point where 'armchair jugglers' came into existence.

emilyw - - Parent

I'd hate to see it get to the point where 'armchair jugglers' came into existence.

You are WAY too late on that one.

Orinoco - - Parent

Bungay doesn't count!

Little Paul - - Parent

Been rocking that lifestyle for over a decade

Little Paul - - Parent

As well as joggling[1] or numbers I think the one which stands a half decent chance (based on widely recognised rule sets and formal competition) is probably volleyclub

Although major league combat seems to be developing some coherent international rules, it's a bit like kabaddi. Although that made it onto uk tv, it's not an Olympic sport. I wish it was though, I used to enjoy watching it on telly. Very entertaining!

[1] I still can't take joggling seriously, no matter how much Albert Lucas wants me to.

The Void - - Parent

Fully agree the first point.
"The ultimate jugglers' sport. The bid for olympic acceptance starts here. "
http://www.capsule39.com/tlmb_volleyClub.php

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Whilst I play a lot more combat, I agree on volleyclub being better as a sport. I should really get round to playing more often...but having played on sand courts it always looks less exciting when someone has put a net up in a gym at a convention, but you can't throw yourself after wayward clubs.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Luke is making a push for Europe wide Combat via http://www.lukeburrage.com/combat/index.php

Adrian G - - Parent

I think volley club would be great but I'm curious what rule sets these are? I've only played very informally but there are lots of things that seem to me like they could be taken advantage of, it's just unsportsmanlike so few people do...

I actually think MLC is easier to do a formal sport in the olympics as the rules are very clear cut (with the exception of 360 combat which I don't think works well)

Marlon - - Parent

If juggling would be allowed as an olympic sport so much other disciplines would have to be allowed as well.
The term olympic sport would lose all meaning.

Why would we even want to become an olympic discipline?
Paperwork? involvement of politics and nationalism?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I think plate spinning should be an olympic sport.

No, seriously another thing that should be a reason for juggling NOT to be an olympic sport: There are not enough good jugglers! I think very few jugglers can compare to athletes of other olympic disciplines, the level can raise a lot still! Of course many people train hard, but without any knowledge/research about training methods, no coaches etc... We jugglers still have so much to learn!

Among the few people who are at the top, many of them are not interested in 'sport' juggling...

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

The five ring Olympic symbol would work rather well I think. Isn't there a flaming club Olympic symbol too?

HardAttack27 -

They say practicing a little bit each day is better than a long session once or twice a week, well what about a long session everyday?is thä better or does practicing to much have a Negitive effect?

Roflcopter - - Parent

I normally practice a lot everyday and I don't think anything negative has come from it.
But it doesn't always make progression faster. With things like numbers juggling it will still take a lot of time. Although with easier things you can learn multiple tricks in a single day.

You always reach plateaus in progression and with long practice I think you just hit said plateau sooner but also get over it a bit quicker.
That was a long reply but I hope I didn't confuse you.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

I understood what u said perfectly,I really see more progress when I do 2 or 3 hours every day all week , but there does come a point where I do feel burned out and relize it's time take a break.

Mats1 - - Parent

Long sessions everyday are definitely how you will improve fastest. Just make sure to mix up what you're doing rather than exhausting yourself trying the same trick or kind of trick for large amounts of time.

thegoheads - - Parent

In general it's not good to practice the same thing over and over for too long. Mix it up so you have several things to work on each session. I personally find that my shoulders and arms get a bit sore and tired after 2 hours. Sometimes I will still feel like juggling beyond a couple hours in a day but I wonder if it's productive practice at that point. If you wanna juggle 4 hours a day, splitting it up into two 2-hour sessions is probably better.

If you juggle just for fun, like me, the best time to stop and rest is when you aren't having fun anymore :)

Roflcopter - - Parent

Penguin catches being something not to practice for an extended period of time...

HardAttack27 - - Parent

I defintly mix up, I'm learning the 5 ball cascade and the reversal and 4 ball Mills Mess at the same time, a bunch of diffrent 3 ball tricks aswell,

Roflcopter - - Parent

4b reverse mills? wow. you should have a little less trouble with a 5b cascade if you have that kind of 4b control. atleast I reckon. I always seem to want to get to 5 and then I go back to 4 prop stuff. recently I'm trying the mills mess. any tips?

Mats1 - - Parent

Learning 5 will make it way easier.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

They say 4 ball Mills Mess is more difficult than the 5 ball cascade, I dissagree, I tried doing five for a few months and made no progress, so I went back to 4, learned the fountain and reverse fountain.mixed fountains coloums, still working on the shower and the 4 ball wind mill, the cross armed reverse fountain will help with Mills Mess , and the cross armed 3 ball reverse cascade really helped,as far as tips, practice a lot!i mean it ALOT! Untill u have nightmares about practicing !and watch as many video tutorials with slow motion as u can, u never when somebody may say something that clicks in your head,

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I think long practice sessions might be more beneficial when you're young. Also how tired you are - I find it too difficult and not very beneficial these days to practice more than half an hour after work. Early morning practice is not a good idea as I'm like a zombie first thing in the morning (I have to leave out my clothes the night before in a human shape or I find myself trying to force socks or underpants over my head). Juggling is so much better when you don't work, you can just keep doing little bits here and there throughout the day.

Roflcopter - - Parent

"when you're young"
yes, when I first started at 16 it was like nicotine addiction. somewhere in the world someone woke up and lit up a cigarette, I woke up and grabbed the yellow and red beanbags. even last night I didn't sleep much because I was experimenting with new tricks (namely body throws) and I feel energized still.
ah, youth.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I have a two sets of patterns that I practise depending on my energy level. Box variations and body throws when I'm feeling energetic, blind, 5b, 7b when I'm feeling fatigued.

HardAttack27 -

Is the 3 ball snake essential to learning the 5 ball cascade ???? Or no???

Kelhoon - - Parent

No.

Not essential, but I found it useful anyway.

Little Paul - - Parent

no.

A lot of people find the 3 ball snake harder than the 5 ball cascade and I know several people who can run 5 balls for as long as they like, but can barely get 3 rounds of the 3 ball snake.

It's something about the way it screws with the natural left-right-left-right throw order makes it difficult to maintain the timing correctly.

peterbone - - Parent

I've never tried any snake patterns, so no. My method for learning 5 for both balls and clubs was to just start by flashing 4 in a crossing pattern starting from both hands. Once you can do that easily, then just go for 5.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

No.

Mats1 - - Parent

No and I discourage people from learning it because I don't think it helps one bit.

The Void - - Parent

Agreed.

Rob van Heijst - - Parent

I remember it to be quite helpful.

seveirein - - Parent

Without the 3 ball snake, not sure I'd ever have gotten 5 ball to where it is today. It was *IMMENSELY* helpful. Please don't discourage it, different people learn 5 ball different ways.

Little Paul - - Parent

wasn't that the name of a juggling video?

Ahh. Seems not. It was only 3 http://www.peapot.net/pages/7?product_id=15

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I'll still discourage it. The 9 people I help by discouraging it will be worth more than the 1 person who would have progressed better with it.
Nothing against trying a snake, but don't practice it if you can spend your time on analyzing 55550 flashes!

Mats1 - - Parent

I pretty much agree with this, except I would recommend 55555 flashes rather than the 55550. I always feel this patterns with zeros in do not teach quite the right timing and in juggling, timing is absolutely everything.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Snap your fingers (or clap your hip) during the 0, and don't do it multiple times in a row!

Of course 5 balls is nicer, but I see too many people starting with it too early and they have their first three balls all over the place before the 4th and the 5th are even thrown! Starting with 3 and going to 4 is fine imo!

Adrian G - - Parent

I've still found it incredibly helpful, but I completely agree about the timing for 55550 (though 55555 can also have that problem as you don't need good timing for a flash). However the idea of having some balls not there can be very useful if the timing is forced (e.g. 7777070 which forces the timing of 7 quite well with only five balls)

Kelhoon - - Parent

I could never do 55550 and it didn't help me at all, imo it's more confusing than 55050552 helped a little though

as mentioned above, people learn differently and should try all of those siteswaps and work on whichever suits them best

mtb - - Parent

@LP advocated 522 as a good pattern for learning as well.

Little Paul - - Parent

I found 522 especially useful when going from flash to qualify and then again for improving the consistency of my throws when I got stuck at around 30 catches.

But like any other practice method, whatever works for you is great, I mostly bang on about the merits of 522 because everyone thinks it's a typo for 552. It's not a typo, I really do mean 522

ChrisD - - Parent

  • Essential, because the 5b cascade contains the 3 ball snake 50505, so you have to be able to do that first.
  • Not necessary at all, because the 5b cascade also contains a 2 ball snake 05050, which no-one ever learns as a precursor to 5.

Take your pick.  I say it's far from essential, but I like throwing the occasional run of 50505 anyway.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I would advise staying well clear of the snake. They can slither into the sewers and then whip the balls off of jugglers when they're sitting on the toilet.

http://instantrimshot.com/

Brook Roberts - - Parent

So to add to the multitude of replies:

I never used snake and wasn't a big fan - I did use 552 and 51 a lot. I found 552 significantly easier than 5 and useful - 55550 is closer but I didn't find it significantly easier which made it slightly less useful as a learning tool.

With regards to people saying the timing is tricky and different to 5 (I hear this complaint about 552 as well as snake and 55550): It is, and if your only goal is to learn the 5 ball cascade then you are probably better off just doing 5 ball flashes and then trying longer runs (so long as this is motivating for you).

But hopefully your aim is to get better at juggling in general, and 5 balls is one step in learning that. In which case I strongly recommend the exercises because they will teach you different things as well as helping your five. The timing is tricky and different - but by forcing yourself to get snake, 552 etc in 'correct' timing you will learn to control timing, rather than just learning one timing that isn't really in your control.

Brook

Note: I am mostly a passer these days where timing is far more important so this probably explains my keenness for timing!

Orinoco - - Parent

I'm really surprised that this seemingly simple question is so contentious.

I too believe that you should learn as many patterns (props, styles...) as you can.

I just wanted to say to those saying that the timing of various siteswaps is 'different' that if you are doing things 'correctly' the timing for 5, 50000, 55000, 55500, 55550, 55050, 552, 522... should all be identical!

Mats1 - - Parent

No-one does siteswaps to even heights. Seeing a siteswap simulator juggle some patterns looks ridiculous actually, as you can see some throws are wildly different to what real juggler would do. The best examples are probably showers. Try throwing b1 and b6666 into a siteswap simulator and then watch a normal juggler do a 5 ball shower and b6666.

Mats1 - - Parent

I mean 6 ball shower lol

Or any pattern with 1s in really.

thegoheads - - Parent

Shower is a bad example because people always like to think they are juggling the async version, but in reality most everyone does showers either sync, or galloped but very close to sync. I see what you mean though...

Orinoco - - Parent

Oh I agree, my point is saying that the timing for any pattern with a 5 in it is different from a 5 ball cascade is wrong because the timing is what *you* make it.

thegoheads - - Parent

A good example of this is with 552, a lot of people make it look like a double-sided 2 ball snake (if that makes any sense haha) sorta right right, quick pause, left left... when it should be right left pause repeat. Maybe that's why some people don't like 552 for practicing 5 cascade.

Roflcopter - - Parent

I think it helped a bit as well as a 4 ball chase. Really though these are small parts that help. Really all there is to do is practice it more and more. Self analyzing is a big part. Knowing what your doing wrong with things like timing and spatial positions and body stuff. Maybe try slow motion video. Then you'll finally get it for a bit, then not be able to do it for days, then after 3 or so months of practice it becomes easy as pie.

HardAttack27 -

Should learn 3 balls in one hand before learning 5??? Or is it better to wait untill u r ready for 6???

Chris - - Parent

The conventional wisdom is that 5 is two hands is easier than 3 in one hand.

ChrisD - - Parent

There are no rules, but I’d say if you have one main goal of learning 5, leave 3 in one hand for now. That’s mostly because the throws are different (higher, and rolling out not in) so it’s not that similar to 5. Opinions vary widely on whether it’s best to work at the same time on tricks related to 5, or just on 5 itself. I tend to think that related tricks are helpful. I assume you already have a solid three ball shower (51) each way (if not, learn those first). So you might also work on the three ball snake 50505, and the four ball tricks 522, 55550 and perhaps 5551.


Three balls in hand is roughly equivalent to a 5b cascade in difficulty. Working on one won’t hurt the other unless your practice time is very limited. If you have lots of time, you may enjoy practicing both, and much besides. If little time, and your goal is 5, concentrate on that.


Then again, if you’d seen how unreliable my 5 is, you might prefer to listen to someone else :-^

peterbone - - Parent

I've never heard of anyone learning 3 in one hand before 5 but it can't hurt. 3 in one hand in a fountain pattern is much harder than 5, but you could try a cascade or reverse cascade pattern which are easier. Just make sure that you work on both hands equally whenever you work on one hand juggling.

The Void - - Parent

I did. I think it's way easier than 5b cascade. I learnt 3b1h fountain, but these days find reverse cascade much easier.

Mats1 - - Parent

I have nothing more to add other than to repeat what Peter Bone said about three in one hand. Practice it in both hands! I actually practiced it in my weakest hand them most to start with, until my weaker hand had a significantly better best run than my stronger hand.

Roflcopter -

LED Vs. Fire

Which do you think is cooler?

Mats1 - - Parent

LED

Little Paul - - Parent

Thermal properties, colour temperature or audience perception?

Roflcopter - - Parent

Audience perception and personal opinion.

The Void - - Parent

My personal opinion is definitely cooler than fire.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I like the phases of the fire artist:

  • Oh shit, fire is scary
  • Oh wow, actually it is not dangerous at all
  • Ok now I can perform it and be super unprofessional, dangerous but cool
  • Oh, I underestimated the risk earlier, glad that I now do it safe again!

 And with LED:

  • Ooh glowy, I must put my money into this
  • This is sooo boring, I never touch my glowbals again
  • Wait, I can make easy money!!!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

For some reason this post messed up

The video is here
https://youtu.be/Q8Os8LQblO4

Colin E. - - Parent

They look cool and flashy when you just hold them, but when juggled, they look a mess!

Orinoco - - Parent

Unless the performer does something with glow/fire that can't be done with a regular prop I'm not particularly interested in either (you'll notice the phrase "unnecessary glow" crops up quite regularly in my festival reviews).

Little Paul - - Parent

oh god this.

mtb - - Parent

Like what? Just curious what would have to be LED or fire by this criteria.

Little Paul - - Parent

Led props allow you to bring "black art" effects into your performance.

Eg by hiding the performers you can make a piece which starts off looking like a 3 ball cascade, but then one ball stops mid air and floats off stage. You can make balls appear and disappear, using two people standing at different levels you can move the pattern around the space in interesting and surprising ways.

This can be very effective with glow props, but is next to impossible with normal props.

Fire is tricky. I find fire juggling and most fire poi/staff/whips/ etc really quite boring. However a good quality fire eating act can have me on the edge of my seat.

Little Paul - - Parent

For example, I love this routine

https://youtu.be/J3hUOGnOmLo

mtb - - Parent

That was gorgeous!

Orinoco - - Parent

Yeah that ^

Feeding the Fish's globall routine at BJC 1997 in Nottingham come to mind.

Also the Gandini's are very good at using the sharper colours that glow props provide too. I remember the troupe all performing 534 in unison with 3 red balls & 1 yellow ball as the 3 which was a really striking effect.

Little Paul - - Parent

Every so often I go looking on youtube/jtv for the FtF globall routine, I haven't found it yet but it set the standard I've compared glow acts to ever since.

Orinoco - - Parent

I think there's a short snippet of it on one of Alan Plotkin's dvds that I have on my shelf somewhere. I'll have a look tomorrow when I have a bit more time.

Also for something you can only do with fire see Steve Rawlings taking advantage of fire's unique property of being able to set other things on fire!

Little Paul - - Parent

Hah! Yes :D

Orinoco - - Parent

I thought it might be on the Best of The British Juggling Convention (1995-1997), but sadly not.

Colin E. - - Parent

That FtF routine is one of a small collection, like Luke Wilson's 3 club routine to saxophone music, that has stayed firmly entrenched in my mind. The FtF choreography was superb, and the music (which I later discovered to be 'clubbed to death'), was probably one of the best musical choices I have seen in a routine.

Little Paul - - Parent

I think it was the first juggling routine I saw which used "clubbed to death" - I wish it had been the only one and not one of the thousand or so other routines I saw in the following years which used the same music.

It got a bit wearing by 2002 when I included it as one of the pieces of music the "Choose your own damn juggling music" quiz would pick for you based on your artistic choices.

Unfortunately, while the wayback machine has preserved the form https://web.archive.org/web/20020821192938/http://www.lpbk.net/music/ it (obviously) hasn't preserved the cgi script which ran the back end.

Orinoco - - Parent

I always thought the most overused song used for juggling routines was Melt by Leftfield.

Rob van Heijst - - Parent

I have never heard that song before in my entire life.

Colin E. - - Parent

Oh, 'Melt' - guilty as charged.

mtb - - Parent

Ah, right. Not thought of that. I can see what you mean though. :)

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

They're about the same coolness.

I like the whooshing sound of fire.. Poi especially. There is something almost tribal about it. And I like the kerosene smell too, it reminds me of good times. I like LED because it puts more emphasis on the juggling than the juggler, I still like to be able to see the juggler though, so not pitch black LED juggling. LED is more futuristic.

CamS - - Parent

Definitely glow, fire is limited to club juggling, usually outside, need insurance to perform and only really entertains drunks and kids. Glow gives you a much more involved performance, more suited to people on mushrooms and hippies.

I think we can all agree though that non-fire, non-glow sucks though, right?

HardAttack27 - - Parent

Think I gotta vote led here, pitch black all diffrent colors looks so good!

Helena Coker -

#UpChuck2014

Although I'm part of a juggling and circus skills club (2 years) and organising UpChuck, I can't actually juggle... Don't worry, I do a bit of poi but I thought I should maybe remedy this before UpChuck this year. That's 25 days!

Apparently I throw forwards and over-think what I'm doing. The advice so far has been to practice against a wall or mirror, neither of which I have available in my room. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Thanks! :)

Chris - - Parent

How does your room not have any walls?

Danny Colyer - - Parent

Bed/desk/bookcases/wardrobe blocking access to all the walls?

I bet there's a door that's accessible and could be stood against, though.

Chris - - Parent

I would assume that the door would be accessible. It's not particularly functional otherwise.

Orinoco - - Parent

It's a good idea to practice on the non opening side.

The Void - - Parent

Deliberately walk backwards immediately after your first throw.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

How about ur front? Face the door and juggle up close! Also if it's warm try going outside with one ball and throw it up as high as u can and try to catch it without moving ur feet,kelp those feet planted, if u have to take a step to catch the ball, u just let it fall, try again and again,

HardAttack27 - - Parent

Front door

Mats1 - - Parent

Forget the wall and forget the mirror.

Start out with two balls, one in each hand and throw them to around head height one at a time a try to catch them. I always say to people try to say out loud "throw, throw, catch, catch." It does really seem to help.

Your aim is to try and have the balls go to roughly the same height in the air. Another important thing to remember is that the throws are very important whereas catching is not very important. Juggling is about making good throws that lead to easy catches, so focus on trying to make the throws good. Good throws lead to easy catches.

Once you can do that at least 50% of the time, even if you're throwing forward or whatever, as long as you can "throw, throw, catch, catch" most of the time, you are ready for 3.

Start with two balls in your strong hand and one in your weak hand. This time, we are going for "throw, throw, throw" and letting the balls hit the floor. That's right, no catching at all to start with. Practice throwing the balls so that they go roughly towards your other hand and go to roughly the same height in the air. It's extremely important that you do not pass any balls across the bottom. The balls must go to roughly head height. Again, it's not so important if the throws are a little forwards, getting the throws out of your hands well and to a similar height is most important of all. I suggest practicing this part over a bed or something of a similar height, so you don't have to spend so much time picking up juggling balls from the floor.

Ok, once you can throw those 3 balls comfortably, you are ready to try and catch them. Remember throws are most important so make sure you are focused more on good throws. You are going to go for "throw, throw, throw, catch, catch, catch"* and once you can do this at least 50% of the time, you're very nearly juggling!

The stage after that is simply to add in an extra throw, so that you are doing 4 throws in total and once that is happening most of the time, add in a 5th. Somewhere around the 6th throw, you should find you are able to start doing little runs of 3 and shortly after you will be juggling.

*Technically when you juggle later on, the first catch will happen just before the 3rd throw, but it doesn't matter when you're just beginning.

I'm not sure how well this method comes across in text, but I've taught hundreds of people to juggle now and this is the method that I found my teaching refined into over the first couple years of teaching.

Chris - - Parent

This is almost exactly how I teach, and it seems to work. I also stress that the throws are much harder to do right than the catches, and people very rarely believe me until they try for themselves. The only thing I do differently is to point out that the balls should form a "golden arches" (i.e. McDonalds logo) shape, but I know many others instruct to throw the balls into the corners of an invisible square.

Mats1 - - Parent

I will never get used to using HTML tags on a forum... haha

Orinoco - - Parent

Edited bb code to html. Have you tried the WYSIWYG editor?

Mats1 - - Parent

Thanks. I've never heard of that editor?

Orinoco - - Parent

You've not heard of it? Ah yes you joined in September 2012, I think my bitching about trying to get it to work well with the site was winding down by then!

Just click settings then scroll down to post composition where many wonderful options await you.

Mats1 - - Parent

This is frickin' sweet. Thanks Orinoco!

It's Him - - Parent

That sounds a lot like one of the methods I have used in the past for teaching. My current preferred method for teaching everybody (and always bearing in mind that not everybody learns in the same way so be prepared to try different methods) is to get them learning the cascade with scarves and not move onto balls/beanbags until they can do at least 20 throws. 

Primarily the reasons for doing this are that it slows the whole throwing and catching process down and you then have the time to say "throw before catch" each time. The other major reason is that the timing of the throwing gets more ingrained before speeding up the process with balls.

On every occasion when I teach the main thrust of what I am saying is that the direction and timing of the throws are much more important than catching.

Also if you are throwing forward, stand over a bed/sofa. It makes you less likely to throw forward as you know you can't move forward to catch and you don't have to bend down so far when you drop. Throwing against a wall just means that the wall is correcting your mistakes rather than you.

Nigel

Helena Coker - - Parent

Thank you everyone! One more question, I only have bean bags at the moment, are these going to be harder to learn with? I'll try giving it a go over the bed again and we'll see if I'm juggling before UpChuck!

Ps. I do have walls, just a lot more stuff in the way of them :)

Mats1 - - Parent

Beanbags are absolutely fine.

Topper -

Would anyone have any suggestions for what fillings to use in beanbags?

I thought about split peas and Jon said Millet seeds.

peterbone - - Parent

I've tried many different filling from plastic pellets to small glass beads, but millet seed seems to be the only option with the right density and feel.

It's Him - - Parent

Tracey used linseed in the balls she made me for Christmas and they work well for me.

Nigel

Little Paul - - Parent

You need something
- small so the beanbag doesn't feel lumpy
- round so you can't feel "edges"
- hard so it doesn't break down too quickly in use
- dense enough that you can get the weight you want into the size you want

Millet generally ticks all those boxes, split peas will probably not meet any of the first three.

Some people use plastic pellets designed for weighing down soft toys so they sit up right, although they aren't dense enough for some weights, but can be augmented with buckshot - they're a more expensive option than millet.

Some people use crushed walnut shells (apparently sold for use in vivariums) but I've never seen any so don't know what it's like size wise, it should be plenty hard enough though.

peterbone - - Parent

Another important factor is smoothness of the surface so that the particles slide past each other easily. Millet is very low friction. Walnut shells will have very high friction, which will give a more crunchy feel.

Topper - - Parent

I will give millet a go and I will try the walnut shell then compare the two.

For interest I ebayed crushed Walnut shell, you can buy it in different grades to be used for shot blasting, stone tumbling, as a powder for using as an ex foliating scrub or added to paint to crate a non slip surface.

Kelhoon - - Parent

The cheap and nasty red, yellow, green 4 panel juggling balls use crushed walnut shells as filling.

Orinoco - - Parent

I'm reminded of some balls made by a young TWJC member many moons ago. She made some balls out of balloons filled with flour. They felt fantastic, certainly ticking LP's first 2 boxes, hardness doesn't really come into it because flour is so fine to start with & the weight was pretty good too.

...unfortunately she didn't realise that balloons degrade pretty quickly, & fine flour can escape through the smallest of holes into your kit bag very quickly & easily.

Little Paul - - Parent

Arf!

Incidentally, how come chocfest isn't shown as a reason for it being quiet today?

Orinoco - - Parent

You mean the Chocfest XIX listed between InJuCo 2014 & 35e Cirque de Demain?

No idea.

Little Paul - - Parent

Well that's odd, I don't have any quietness notices at all. Is that an option I'd forgotten I'd turned off or something?

Little Paul - - Parent

Ahh! Worked it out

When did they move to the bottom of the page? I was still looking up the top

Orinoco - - Parent

er... (consults notes) 2nd of November. I felt the novelty had worn off a bit & during particularly busy periods it got in the way of the main content so shoved it down the bottom.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

Bird seed

Marlon - - Parent

Birds come from eggs.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I lolled

Mats1 -

How on Earth do you all manage to keep living in this world?

Colin E. - - Parent

That's a difficult question to answer, it certainly has its ups and downs, but hopefully the 'ups' make it worthwhile. I know they do for me and in that way I know I am quite fortunate.

Orinoco - - Parent

Most of the time I have no idea. All I ever do is the best I can with what I have available. When I'm down it's often other people that get me through. Sometimes friends, sometimes strangers.

What's up?

The Void - - Parent

Do you mean
-earn enough money to get by on?
I think through a combination of hard work, dedication and fluke.
-not commit suicide?
I'm long since not a teenager, and nor do I have any drug habits to trigger clinical depression. I do occasionally verge on the SAD though. A bit of silliness here and there helps.
-*this* world?
It seems the best option.

thegoheads - - Parent

I avoid television, radio, newspapers... anything that might clue me in to the current state of chaos. It's very difficult sometimes because it seems everyone around me is addicted to constant updates about all the terrible things that are happening. I would rather focus on things in my life that I have direct control over. I try to exist in my own happy little oblivious world, rarely leaving my house or attempting to connect with people. It seems to work great, I have lots of fun and seldom give people chances to dupe me.

Although, occasionally, I wonder just how on earth I manage to keep living...

What has got you down, man?

Roflcopter - - Parent

I'm kinda in the same boat as steve. I don't watch television, internet (except for this), face book or anything like that. I only try to keep what I need as far as possessions. So then I have more time for things and people that are important to me. When it all comes down it's fulfilling relationships with your fellow humans that make a lot worth while.

Mats1 - - Parent

Well nothing is really wrong, but I wondered what motivates people to continue. I think my English wasn't (and continues not to be) good enough to express the question very well. It's like, I look around and it all looks completely pointless and if everyone else is doing the same then, why do we all continue?

thegoheads - - Parent

Struggling to find a reason to continue will have to do as the best reason to continue :)

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

What about experience? That's a 'point' isn't it? After all, it's the only thing you really get out of life. If it all seems dull boring and repetitive then prise yourself away from what you're used to and start somewhere completely different.

ChrisD - - Parent

If I’m just tired/deflated/ill, I remember that no matter how bad I’ve felt, better times have always returned at some point. And in a world with so much possibility and wonder, those times can be very good indeed. They don’t have to be major events - something as simple as walking in a wood on a fine day can be magical.

If things are worse than that, then it may be a matter of working out what needs to change and working towards that. But at the same time, don’t forget to live in the moment and find happiness there also.

As to pointlessness - sometimes it’s best to put philosophy to one side, and just have a bit of fun.

ChrisD - - Parent

Sometimes I try living three lives simultaneously in the hope one of them improves quicker. D'oh! %-)

Orinoco - - Parent

Shh, no one need be any the wiser!

ChrisD - - Parent

The God Emperor is even more powerful than I realised.

Orinoco - - Parent

/me blows smoke off of index finger

ChrisD - - Parent

But then I find that the other two duplicate posts that were on my screen a moment ago have disappeared again...

Roflcopter - - Parent

can I ask how old you are and what your main language is?

Mats1 - - Parent

English is my main (only) language and I'm mid twenties old.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

People been asking that ? For thousands of years,

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Ah, the beginnings of existential angst. It's a very fashionable thing, especially amongst the young and impressionable (I'm looking at you, emo kids), but as far as I can see it's not a philosophy of life that takes long to logically dismantle. If, for instance, you find yourself asking "Why?" repeatedly, then perhaps you first need to establish that there needs to be a purpose to life in the first place. *That* should give you something to do for a while.

In the meantime, have a bit classic Carl Sagan to provide a bit of perspective :-

https://youtu.be/p86BPM1GV8M

Weird philosophical mumbling threads FTW!

Roflcopter -

Hey guys,

Nobody has heard from me in for a long time, but I recently found friends that I've started juggling with and on Saturday I was at a convention of a sort and found a multitude of lads and lassies that enjoyed object manipulation as much as I do and we had banded together and formed a cult of flow under a rainy parking lot awning. All this reminded me of this online community and added a new shine to a hobby that (dare I say) had started to lose some luster. So I just finished the last of my exams today so be expecting a return of online presence from me, also I'd like to welcome all new members that joined in my prolonged absence.

Cheers and Prost
-roflcopter

Mats1 - - Parent

Welcome back.

Roflcopter - - Parent

thank you :)

Orinoco - - Parent

Which convention? Are they people you will be able to get together with regularly? I seem to recall you saying you thought you were pretty isolated from other jugglers.

Roflcopter - - Parent

It wasn't a juggling convention. my girlfriend is into anime and cosplay and such and it was a convention for that. I normally go with her and juggle there. No they arent people i"m able to contact, I didnt even ask for their names. Yes, I am somewhat isolated from other jugglers the only ones i Run into are ones at the fore mentioned conventions, and those that I have taught to juggle. (my brother, girlfriend, and another friend.) My friend is making progress in his beginnings and I can see he is starting to really enjoy it.

HardAttack27 - - Parent

Pancake throws

Norbi - - Parent

Wrong thread...

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