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Little Paul -

Anyone know if there’s a proposed date for chocfest yet? I can’t see anything in the events listing, but I’m trying to plan my January :)

Little Paul - - Parent

Damnit! Chocfest have just announced they’re going 20th jan - the one weekend I didn’t want them to go for :(

York Jugglers - - Parent

Sorry, we booked it straight after last Chocfest, but the someone else had already booked our preferred date so we had to go for a week earlier.

Does this mean you might not be coming Paul?


Little Paul - - Parent

It means I definitely won’t be coming, I’m getting married instead - venue and registrar we’re booked this afternoon.

It also means some of my guest list will have to choose too :(

If only you had announced yesterday!

lukeburrage - - Parent


Mike Moore - - Parent

Wow! Congratulations!

Kelhoon - - Parent

congrats on the wedding, boo for the clashes

charlieh - - Parent

Yay! Congrats!

The Void - - Parent

Congrats to you both.

Orinoco - - Parent

Yay! Congratulations to you both!

Al_Bee - - Parent

Yay. Many congrats. Best wishes to you both. Have fun!

Bob Dilworth - - Parent

Congratulations, Paul. Great news!

Mike Moore -

Strengthening joints?

When I work on inverted sprung cascade[1], my elbows hurt the next day, even though at the time the pattern feels relaxed and lovely. I've not pushed things lately, but I'd really like to work on this (and some related patterns) harder.

Does anyone have any experience with prehab for elbows? The range of motion certainly isn't straining my flexibility, but would stretching help anyway[2]?

[1] - this is what ISC looks like, so you can see the particular movements:
[2] - looking for something more than a "it couldn't hurt!" answer here.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Try not to damage your elbows. I've had a recurring sore elbow for the past few weeks.. wasn't sure why, perhaps it's something juggling related. I have been practicing hi-lo inv box recently (still not running it but getting closer). My pain is at the top of my forearm, opposite side of elbow. I had tennis elbow a few years back, it took months to heal! A tennis elbow pressure strap, regular hard self-massaging to the painful area, and Ibuprofen helps alot. Ice is good too. ISC looks really crazy, I don't think many people can do that!

Mike Moore - - Parent

The pain your describing sounds like the same injury I've had a few times, practicing similar patterns. The first time, when I didn't know the warning signs, I was out for ~2-3 months.

Perhaps it's time to invest in a tennis elbow pressure strap. Thanks for the thoughts.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

In this trick you're placing sideways stress on a hinge joint. That's never any good, and I don't think you can do much to strenghten that joint.
What you probably can do is stretch and train the muscles around your shoulder to more actively and easily make the outward rotation. A physio/sports therapist should be able to guide you in that!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Interesting, thanks. I've heard other box jugglers talk about shoulders hurting from practicing these types of things, but I've never had any shoulder issues (I guess I'm lucky with those joints!). I'll be sure to be cognizant of that potential injury, though.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I don't think you're potentially injuring your shoulder, I think your shoulder should be capable of taking the impact which is now getting on your elbow. Stretching the shoulder might help it do that!

Lift your arm to the front, and then bend the elbow with your forearm going up, so you're making pretty much the position you hold in the inverted sprung cascade. Now try to rotate your fore arm outwards while keeping the elbow in the same spot in space. This movement comes from the shoulder, not the elbow. However, if the shoulder is incabable of making this move easily, you might put some stress on the elbow joint sideways, which it can't deal with very well. By becoming more flexible, and/or stronger so that you can make the rotation more actively, you could release the stress on the elbow.

Maybe lookup "external shoulder rotation"

Mike Moore - - Parent

Ah, thanks for setting me straight, I had completely misinterpreted.

I've looked up external shoulder rotation, thanks.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Interesting thread. [ #injuries #anatomy #physio #elbow #shoulder ]

7b_wizard -

practise versus ``talent´´

(no matter which level you're on - just started or world champion ..)
How much do you think that all your skills are (to which part) a result of practise or hard ``work´´, perseverance, or else
(to which part) did they ``come to you´´ by a natural preference for juggling (or object manipulation or artistry oror) or by a natural predisposition or a love for juggling making learning easier (than e.g. for the average juggler, or e.g. than learning another skill or art of motion or sportive activity)?

  1. no talent or predisposition or preference - it's 100% hard work or perseverant regular practise or strong will only got me there.
  2. some talent or predisposition or preference - but mostly practise or work or perseverance or strong will.
  3. a good portion of talent or predisposition or preference - but somewhat more practise or work or perseverance or strong will.
  4. about equal.
  5. somewhat more talent or predisposition or preference - but it couldn't have grown & developed without a notable and regular amount of practise or work or perseverance or strong will.
  6. notably more talent or predisposition or preference - but it won't yield without a bit of practise or coping with or some will to improve.
  7. I learn extremely fast and don't see upper limits below highest levels. I think, I'm a ``natural´´.
  8. other \ depends \ easy for s'swaps and few prop tricks, but hard for numbers \ easy for basic patterns, but hard for tricks

A few aspects helping to answer:
Even Gatto said sth like, there's no such thing talent on his level or for him - it was all hard hard work.
Think of what you can't do even though you think you should.
Was your decision or how you got to juggling totally intrinsic (=absolutely "yours" and the only thing to do, ``necessary´´ in a way) or could it just aswell have been something else, another hobby or activity.
Do you see yourself improving and learning much faster than others (that's the point, not learning easy stuff fast only).
Do others admire the speed you improve or learn (while you yourself might not have noticed).

And a question that I'm interested in:
Do you think or have you experienced a hidden talent waking up after already having juggled for a good while? Do you think that's possible to ``wake up the natural inside you´´?

This is a competition thread which ran from 30th Sep 2017 to 10th Oct 2017. View results.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I myself am somewhere between 2 and 3, but sill blundering a real lot when not yet warmed up or when not concentrating, also failing over long phases, makes me say "2", even though I hope for it to become easier, maybe the natural skill inside waking up, some day when I've reached my goals and then not having to so much do at the limit anymore. I don't think I'd have gotten where I am without the inner decision to dedicate to the 7b cascade, which is maybe rather a preference than ``natural talent´´, who knows.

7b_wizard - - Parent

If i get 13 catches of 9b today or 7b > 100 c, I'll change to "5" ;o])

Daniel Simu - - Parent

You're asking multiple questions at once, which makes it hard to answer correctly...

I think I have some but little natural talent in learning object manipulation skills. However I am extremely predisposed to love juggling which makes it incredibly easy to spend countless hours on practice. So effectively my natural affection for juggling makes me a good juggler?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, [>>"multiple wording"<<], wanted to include a wide range of viewpoints for "talent\\not talent".

Okay, that makes it a bit difficult ("little natural talent, but love for juggling making practise easy"),
but, as the question is scaled along "talent vs. practise", I'd say, your description says, that your love for juggling sort of enables or helps you to make up for little natural talent. But you don't sound, like new skills ``come to you´´ or that your natural afffection for juggling makes learning (notably) easier than for the average juggler or than another activity - at least not in a way that would spare you to still having to practise a whole lot. That would be a clear "2", I'd say.

So, @ all, if in doubt, feel free to read the options as roughly ..

1. 0-5% talent - 95-100% practise (hard work only)
2. 5-25% talent - 75-95% practise
3. 25-45% talent - 55-75% practise
4. 45-55% talent - 45-55% practise (equal)
5. 55-75% talent - 25-45% practise
6. 75-95% talent - 5-25% practise
7. 95-100% talent - 0-5% practise (pure talent, just do it and it will naturally succeed in ridiculously short time)

Orinoco - - Parent

I put myself down as a number 2. I think I'm very similar to Daniel, I got good at juggling because when I first started I enjoyed it so much I did nothing but practice. Perhaps because of my enjoyment I didn't realise it was 'hard work'.

peterbone - - Parent

Agreed. The choices are made a bit complex by the 'love of juggling' part, which I think makes the vote lose focus on the nature vs nurture argument. I think that any natural aptitude is very small, but I voted 2 for the same reason as you.

Interesting Gatto's comment that he thinks it was all hard work. Where does that quote come from? On his own forum years ago he said that he believes he has some kind of natural advantage and sees things "in slow motion". Although I don't believe that at all I do think that believing it helped him a lot.

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

I always thought that seeing things in slow motion is acquired. When you first start attempting 5 balls it feels frantic and crazy fast and impossible. After a while (perhaps a few years or more), it can seem slow and simple. Gravity obviously hasn't changed but your perception has.

Sometime after I was pretty solid with 5 balls, I remember when it really clicked even more and became truly effortless. I fondly remember that as my juggling nirvana.

7b_wizard - - Parent

That 'love of juggling' wording is due to me trying to exclude, that ``talent´´ (which anyway is hard to seize as notion) need be determined by some genetic predisposition, let alone by a distinct ``juggling gene´´. And I tried to allow, that a wunderkind could feel as a natural without a need to have genetic evidence, without the need to have been ``born as juggler´´, just with love of juggling, then. Also, I wanted to avoid any discussion about whether ``(genetic) talent´´ even exists or not.

That Gatto statement is nothing like a citation with a source; I had it in mind, read it somewhere - it might be a mere rumour or misinterpretation (alas, I have no idea, where I got that from).

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'd put me somewhere between 5-6. When I can dredge up enough time to practice daily, I feel my progress goes by leaps and bounds, and it seems like I could be /very/ good if I were to try to make a career of juggling (or prioritize it higher).

There are certainly people who pick things up faster than me, but that population seems to be somewhere between 10-25 % of jugglers I know. There's probably some selection bias in there.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I'm a 2. I find it very difficult to understand juggling patterns and I've always learned everything slower than most. My love of juggling has helped me keep up the practicing.

Marvin - - Parent

This poll has now ended. The results are:

  1.   no talent or predisposition or preference - it's 100% hard work or perseverant regular practise or strong will only got me there. (0 votes)
  2.   some talent or predisposition or preference - but mostly practise or work or perseverance or strong will. (6 votes)
  3.   a good portion of talent or predisposition or preference - but somewhat more practise or work or perseverance or strong will. (1 vote)
  4.   about equal. (0 votes)
  5.   somewhat more talent or predisposition or preference - but it couldn't have grown & developed without a notable and regular amount of practise or work or perseverance or strong will. (0 votes)
  6.   notably more talent or predisposition or preference - but it won't yield without a bit of practise or coping with or some will to improve. (1 vote)
  7.   I learn extremely fast and don't see upper limits below highest levels. I think, I'm a ``natural´´. (0 votes)
  8.   other \ depends \ easy for s'swaps and few prop tricks, but hard for numbers \ easy for basic patterns, but hard for tricks (1 vote)

The Void -

Juggling by numbers - Numberphile.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

He taught me 441 at a juggling convention in the 90s.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Enjoyed both the video, and the number of people/places that have brought it to me attention today!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Wonderful! I had never seen Colin before, great to see he can explain it so well! I hope this brings a couple new jugglers into the scene :)

Daniel Simu -

Flashing rules

In a fluke of boredom I watched Josh Horton flash 6 iPhones in slow motion. I noticed that the first catch is made before the last prop is released, which fairly obvious in retrospect but I had never thought about it before.

However, this brings me to a new question: Would I be allowed to set an official record flash with an even amount of objects if I offset the right and left hand timing even more? Like, for example, if I were to flash 6 balls.. first throw 2 on the right, and only then join in with the left hand? Would this make the juggling easier (probably) and has anyone experimented with this pattern?

Thanar - - Parent


A flash occurs for a given number of objects in an explicitly stated pattern when the number of catches made is at least the number of objects being juggled. The first catch to be counted cannot be made until all props but one, or one per team member, have been thrown. All props must be thrown by the juggler(s) and caught in the order and to the hand dictated by the chosen pattern. Multiplexing is not allowed." - Juggling Information Services Committee on Numbers Juggling (JISCON) Numbers Juggling Rules & Definitions

Based on the above definition (used for records tracked by JISCON, Wikipedia and the Juggle Wiki), Josh Hortons 6 iPhone flash is a valid flash. I'd bet most flashes have the first catch made before the last prop is released, since that's the "normal" way to do a flash.

Based on the above definition, if you offset the left hand timing even more, so that a prop is caught while two props have not yet been thrown, then that catch would not count. Your flash attempt would officially have only 5 catches, and not be a flash.

Mike Moore - - Parent

The world needs more people like Thanar.

Mike Moore -

Overcame a mental barrier

Was having a horrible time beating my personal best of 120 catches of 7b. After ~forever, I finally snapped that mental barrier and got three runs of >150 catches today.

No deep conversation necessary, just happy :)

The Void - - Parent

Well done!

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Looking at your 7 ball cascade records, you have been making linear gains for the last several years. You are pace to break 200 next year, or the year after.

Have you been training the same way recently? I have noticed a lot more log entries from you lately.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I was pretty surprised by my linear progress, which I suppose has been updated infrequently enough to smooth over INTENSE non-linearity in practice. For example, I only juggled three balls from Feb-July of this year. Largely because of that restriction recently being lifted, I've been enthusiastic about 7 and 9b since then, and have been practicing those.

I log when two things are satisfied:
1) I think I'll be able to practice fairly frequently
2) I am practicing by myself (I don't log club practices, because they're an order of magnitude less useful for improvement)

I think at this point I'll give 7b endurances a rest and practice 7b tricks and techy stuff for 9b.

Thanar -

Here is a playlist of the records broken or set in the World Record Challenge at the Guelph Juggling Fest 2017.

3 ball lazies: 2 minutes and 7 seconds by Matan Presberg
3 ball shoulder throws: 204 catches by Jorden Moir
3 ring backcrosses: 183 catches by Matan Presberg
3 club flats: 10 minutes and 42 seconds by Nick Thomas

4 ball lazies: 54 catches by Matan Presberg
4 ball box: 3 minutes 57 seconds by Matan Presberg

7 balls isolated: 1 minute and 43 seconds by Matan Presberg
7 ball 867: 188 catches by Matan Presberg
7 ball claw: 7 catches by Nick Thomas

9 ball reverse: 16 catches by Matan Presberg

Foot juggling
3 ball: 1 hand & 1 foot: 56 catches by Jorden Moir
4 balls: 2 hands & 1 foot: 142 catches by Jorden Moir

Speed juggling
4 ring speed: 232 catches in 1 minute by Nick Thomas
6 ball speed: 312 catches in 1 minute by Matan Presberg

Slow juggling
3 ring slow: 32 catches in 1 minute by Sydney MacDonald
4 ring slow: 76 catches in 1 minute by Sydney MacDonald
4 ball slow: 63 catches in 1 minute by Nick Thomas

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yeehaw! Thanks again for coming!

Orinoco - - Parent

+ Number of records set or broken at a single festival: 17?

That is an impressive set of records, congrats to all those involved.

Mike Moore - - Parent

18 last year at Guelph fest! I guess we're going down hill (I blame myself...I didn't set/break any this year. Too much running the fest, not enough juggling).

There was a world record challenge at IJA 2013, too. It looks like a subset of the broken records is available here:

I don't know the total number of records broken there.

Thanar - - Parent

I've still got one video left to upload (Sydney MacDonald with 16 min of 4b full reverse fountain), so it should end up as 18 records for WRC at Guelph Fest 2017.

As to previous World Record Challenges...

The first WRC was in 2010 at WJF 5. Prizes were only for surpassing existing duo numbers passing records.

In 2011 there were WRCs at WJF 6 and the IJA festival. The records expanded to solo numbers juggling records in addition to two-person numbers passing (i.e. the records tracked on the Juggling World Records Wikipedia page at that time). The prize for "missing records" was also introduced to encourage jugglers to attempt a flash or better of passing 17 rings or solo force bouncing 11 balls, the only two records considered missing at the time!

WRC 2013 was at the IJA fest in Bowling Green, OH. The records expanded to everything tracked by Juggle Wiki. Missing records were greatly expanded with minimums set for each, based on discussions I had with Alex Lubker. About 28 records were set or broken by a wide range of jugglers, with Thomas Dietz breaking the most.

Then came the WRCs at Guelph Mini-Fest 2016 and Guelph Fest 2017.

Tomorrow another WRC begins at JuggleMIT 2017, so stay tuned...

Mike Moore - - Parent

What you're saying is 28 records in one fest is the one to beat. I'll have to start training for the next time the WRC comes to a fest I'm attending!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Actually, I'll train especially for if you come to the next Guelph fest. It needs more people/publicity! (and I really thank you for helping with that)

James Hennigan - - Parent

I haven't watched the entire video, but I think Gatto does 7 for about 10 minutes without moving his feet here:

peterbone - - Parent

I'm not sure that counts as isolation for some reason. I watched Ofek Snir do 7 balls without moving his feet for over 12 minutes at the EJC last year.

Mike Moore - - Parent

The most convincing argument I heard was that the inability to move has a psychological on people. I've found this to be true in my experience.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Such a nice idea to set these records at the convention! I've been thinking about setting a few records lately, but I can't get the motivation to actually film them or practice tricks which I could run over a minute... In a convention/group setting I'd feel less awkward to try and less pushy to post, yet we'd still stretch juggling as we know it!

I might try and introduce this at some convention here in the EU in the future :)

And congrats on the results too!

It's Him -

Today Milton Keynes Juggling Club sometimes known as Jugglers Anonymous and/or the juggley love club is 25 years old!

Which means I've spent half my life going to this club.

I'm curious to know how many clubs out there are older? I know there will be a few in the UK but elsewhere?


Maria - - Parent

"My" club is younger, but it's 20 years this year. (Fritidsjonglörerna, Stockholm.) Maybe I should try to find out the date so we can celebrate. :)

Mike Moore - - Parent

The 25th annual Waterloo Festival happened earlier this year, so I think it's safe to say it's older. No idea how much older, though.

The Void - - Parent

Congratulations on both feats!
#Altern8 in Bristol is older by a few years.

glomph - - Parent

Flying Teapot's the Uni of Sheffield circus society celebrated 30 years this year!

York Jugglers - - Parent


York Jugglers is also 25 years old this year (October to be more precise) but we don't have any members who have been going for all 25 years.

charlieh - - Parent

I first went to Cambridge Community Circus (then named Patchwork Circus) in 1992 so it's at least 25 years old, and rumor has it that there was a juggling club run by some of the same people in the late 80s.

Orinoco - - Parent

Turns out TWJC will be 25 later this month!

The top 10 oldest active UK clubs with a known established date in the Edge database:

Nottingham Juggling Club (1980)
Flying Teapots (1985)
Hullabaloo (1988)
Altern8 (1989)
Glasgow Juggling Club (1990)
Imperial College Juggling Society (1990)
Camcircus, Milton Keynes, Tunbridge Wells, York Jugglers (1992)

Interesting because the BJC is 30 years old. I expected there to be more than 4 clubs (Balls up in Portsmouth was established in 1987 but is alas no more) to be active at the time to provide an audience to make a national event viable. I'm sure there were clubs that predate internet records. Or is it that annual juggling events produce local juggling clubs rather than the other way around?

The oldest club we have on record is Santelli, NL which has allegedly been going since 1962.

Bosco - - Parent

Hastings Juggling Club started in 1990. Russell Watson was the original motivator. Still going but monthly. It's been responsible for much - marriages, break ups, new careers, making people happy, an escape from the world we live in and more, just like the other juggling clubs around the world I'm sure.

Where would we be without a juggling club?

Orinoco - - Parent

I hope HCC wasn't responsible for the break ups! Although come to think of it I did leave someone partly because she thought what my juggling friends & I did was 'silly'.

Bosco - - Parent

I'm sure it was lack of juggling causing break ups.

Mike Moore -

Some great juggling animations being posted on Twitter. Here's one:

— いり (@chintara10) August 28, 2017

The Void - - Parent

Non-juggly, but if you like pretty mathsy patterns, then @beesandbombs is worth a follow.
This one reminds me of Q*Bert:
— Dave

Mike Moore -

Guelph Juggling Fest 2017 HLGCBS

Free stuff and used/cheap props tables being well-used. 2/3 of my stuff sold!
Getting my hands on Nouveaux Nouveaux Remix. Thanks Jorden/Mark Moir!
Post-fest debrief with Emily, Mike, Nikki. Time well spent, 100 %

Not participating in any workshops other than my own (feeling like I always had to be available)
Not being very prepared for my act or my emceeing causing some stress on Saturday

Have the escape room run smoothly - 0.5 check. There were big screw ups at the beginning: I didn't take their cell phones (even though I told them I would), I didn't give a plot preamble (that I wasn't aware of at the time), and the second stage of the challenge wasn't locked (gah). It was an absurd amount of work to design, make, and test things, and I think it could've gone way better. Not sure when I'll be able to implement changes I'd like to make because I don't know when my next team-designed escape room will be.
Have the show run reasonably well: CHECK CHECK! The performers were good, I think the show order was optimal, diveristy was reasonable.
Don't do a horrible job emceeing my first juggling fest - check! A couple unexpected surprises (like being somewhat forced into picking a kid for a particular bit when I was looking for an adult) but nothing crazy. I think it went well (I'll have to review the recording)
Don't do a horrible job for my juggling performance - check! Managed to establish a tone that minimized the impact of drops, hit the music cues and important tricks that I wanted, and felt like it went well.
Keep workshops and games approximately on time (and have decent workshops) - check!
Be the fest director, escape room co-creator/games master, workshop director, show director, emcee, and a performer and still be healthy on Monday - somehow, check!
Don't lose (lots of?) money - check! Made about $120ish. Hopeing to improve upon this next year to make a sufficient cushion so that future fest directors don't have to front any money.

Emily, for co-designing the escape room with me. Having two people on this made it immensely more time-consuming, frustrating, and amazing. She also helped tons with lots of other fest stuff.
Nikki McMulkin, Jeremy Foxcroft, Gavin Hossack, Mike Coady - for helping organize things before the fest started
Housers: Nikki Emily Gavin Jeremy Mike
Drivers/gofers (of Emily and I): Brandon Walters, Mike , Nikki , Nathan Wakefield
All the people who lent hands when I made announcements asking for them

Feeling sick on Friday and the first part of Saturday. Glad I got over that relatively quickly.
General stresses of running a "real" fest for the first time, coupled with being the head/co-organizer of so many parts of it. This happened because I traveled loads in the months leading up to the fest (not getting much organizing done). Then, upon returning for good, I got caught up in escape room design, preventing me from delegating other aspects of the fest properly. Live and learn!

Terry Donahue coming and bringing the World Record Challenge with him (not a surprise at the fest, but a couple days before the fest). I love that event!
Jonah, who I didn't really know before, coming out with some strong box patterns. Dude's legit!
A particular density-based puzzle not working for the escape room in the weirdest way. Caught it during setup, though.
So many people not understanding so many references that were in the escape room. I sometimes forget not everyone's been juggling (and been interested in juggling culture) for the last five or so years.
The workshop schedule coming together so nicely. I wish I could've set that up more in advance, but I was running out of time/organizational energy.

Mike Moore - - Parent

If anyone finds this thread in the future and is concerned that the fest was mostly populated by crickets, I urge them to visit the corresponding reddit thread:

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