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7b_wizard -

What is "rock solid", for you when practising, wanting a trick or pattern rock solid (not when rating someone else's juggling) ?
#lingo #jargon

7b_wizard - - Parent

Can hardly tell myself, cos' nothing I juggle is really safe to not fail early before I get a good long lucky run in an attempt. (Guess, I'm doing at my limits too much, instead just "juggling" also easier stuff).
  Going over endurance in order to then after that get a pettern safe enough for a short run to show, with 5b cascade, I feel pretty comfortable now (>1,000 catches), but doing the 5b reverse cascade lucky over 100 c a few times lately is still way from "solid, stable or safe", so I think, I need 250-300 catches (?) at least to feel like "I got that halfway down" with then still lots'a practise ahead to really "own", somewhat "master" it.
  So, "solid" for me, at my current level, a lot means like being able to vary a pattern, bail out drifts, turns or lost timing and rhythm, and find back to comfortable fluent controlled pattern. (Yet that's still not "utterly controlled, mastered, rock solid", let alone "performable on big stage" as long as I get early fails a lot and longer runs luckily onlöy or after longer warmup anew on every single pattern).

  So, (I'm aware it depends on the goals, on the difficulty of the pattern, on if to perform it for vid or onstage, but) how about your best patterns or tricks, .. are you okay with a few rounds (periods, cycles), with 50, 100 catches, or do you want them to last 300, 500 catches? When do you feel "safe" with them?

7b_wizard - - Parent

"until it becomes ``boring´´" is another criteria just came to my mind.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I should be able to:
Do it while talking to friends (and others, I suppose)
Do it whenever I want for however long I want
Rely on it completely when trying to do harder versions

^At least 95 % of the time. To me, if it feels good and has low variation, it's solid. Even inverted box I drop somewhat oftenish, and I'd consider it solid.

peterbone - - Parent

With a club balance.

The Void - - Parent

Peter wins this thread.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Solidly, with a club balance? If so, how do you know when you have that solid?

peterbone - - Parent

Obviously not otherwise it becomes recursive. Normally a qualify would be enough, or a bit more. Solid is such a vague word that I'm not sure I'd ever claim to have any trick solid to be honest.

7b_wizard - - Parent

"Solid for you" would like mean when you're satisfied with it far enough to stop practising it intensely for example.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. or also when you feel it's ``ripe´´ to increase its difficulty and dare a harder version of it for example.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Hehe, I was imagining a progression of objects of decreasing length, ending with the silly end behaviour of no object at all.

7b_wizard - - Parent

:-o nirvanic.

It's Him - - Parent

I consider a trick solid when I can do it at least 9 times out of 10 in practice when combining it with another trick.

I will then introduce it into my show and if I am still dropping it too much I will revise my belief that it is solid until I can reproduce the same consistency in a show.


7b_wizard - - Parent

That - even though mine's different and much lower level - reminds me of wanting >10 rounds of a single extra throw in e.g. 5b practise, like #5-count backcross or reachover or 4b + one very small club, before I attempt on faster #n-count or add a club to 3b2c. Or >10 times "per run" (no matter how much cascade only in between). Same for e.g. 3b single behind back looking in about a #5-count.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Agreed - ripeness. When I can do it well enough to blob it into my other stuff.

Likes3clubs -

Hey! There's a juggling fest in Ontario, Canada coming up March 24-26:

Is anyone coming from Montreal/Quebec area, and can drive two jugglers?

The Void - - Parent

Hi, have a hash tag: #2017UWJugglingFest

Mike Moore - - Parent

PS - there are reasons to go! Like Matan and Delaney, both performing and running workshops! And a handful of good 3b jugglers! And more!

mike.armstrong -

The Catch

I recently acquired a set of juggling magazines from the 80s and 90s which inspired me to reassess the state of my collection.
Has anyone got a spare copy of The Catch, issue 13, from April-May 1995?
Would anyone like issues of The Catch, Kaskade or Juggler's World to fill gaps in their collections? I've got lots of spares.
Post a message here or email me on <my user name on this site> and we'll sort it out

Mïark - - Parent

Sadly I am also missing issue 13 of The Catch. If you spares of issues 5, 6, 19, 21, 22; I would be interested (was 24 the last issue or were there more after that?)
If you have spares and could bring them to Chocfest on Saturday, that would be neat.

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Hi Miark,
I'll bring copies of 5, 6, 19 and 21 on Saturday. There was no Catch 22 (for literary reasons) but there was a 23.5 - have you got that?

Mïark - - Parent

Thanks, no I haven't got any .5 issues

mike.armstrong - - Parent

...I for for to say, yes, 24 was the last one

LukasR - - Parent

would you consider digitalising "the catch". the digitalised versions of kaskade and jugglersworld are a great source of inspiration and information and i believe for many of us a print magazine collection is not really an option. i know i would be a shitload of work but maybe if some "catch magazine owners" would collaborate it could be done

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Watch this space! is a test that might whet your appetite...

Little Paul - - Parent

Well done for getting started on something which we've talked about doing for over a decade.

Have you had any more thoughts about how to overcome the OCR problems? Last time we talked about it, I think we decided the easiest way to deal with the use-every-font-in-the-box design was to copy type all the articles (ignoring the adverts)

I ask mostly because I have a huge stack of other non-juggling documents which are proving difficult to OCR, and any ideas I can pinch to make them easier to deal with would be appreciated!

mike.armstrong - - Parent

For the moment I've decided to ignore the OCR problem and just get something scanned and uploaded. Details have derailed this too many times before!

Little Paul - - Parent

Jolly good!

Bendy Dan - - Parent might be worth a look as a quicker way to do bulk scanning of stuff; I've tried it with old children's books and it works pretty well for flattening things out, at least. (though for things where the entire page is coloured it can get confused by white balance, unless I'm missing something)

Mïark - - Parent

I think the best case scenario would be for the text to be recognised as text not an image of text, which would enable the text to be searched for specific words.

Little Paul - - Parent

Unfortunately, given the design choices made by the catch the text is very difficult to extract automatically. This is the OCR problem I mentioned.

Feel free to experiment with different tools for doing so, if you find one which works great!

Otherwise, I think mikes approach of "worry about that bit later" is a wise one :)

mtb - - Parent

Huh. Taking a look at the scanned version from above, they do not look insurmountable if there is good OCR software out there that can do OCR in a column. I have no idea if such things exist, or if I am just being naively optimistic.

But yes, just getting it scanned is an excellent step to be going on with. Well done, that man.

Little Paul - - Parent

The thing that trips up every OCR approach I've tried so far is that in some issues every article is in a different font, some times multiple fonts in the same paragraph, with odd shaped columns that flow around a breakout quote...

However, if you've got access to OCR tooling that I don't (I've only got free stuff, iPhone apps and a really old version of acrobat), and are willing to try, please do so!

If you can report back with something that works I'd be extremely grateful as I have other documents that have so far evaded my attempts, and would be willing to spend money on the right tooling!

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Unfortunately, given the design choices made by the catch the text is very difficult to extract automatically. This is the OCR problem I mentioned.

This with bells on. Which is why I've decided to 80/20 the hell out of it this time and just produce something.

Orinoco - - Parent

It was a few years ago that I last looked into OCR software I couldn't find anything that was even remotely successful. Correcting dodgy OCR is considerably more time consuming than just typing up the article manually.

I got permission to type up a couple of articles from the Catch for the IJDb: The business of shows by Steve Rawlings & Juggling & Puppetry by the Parachute Theatre Company. Which is a start...

Mike Moore - - Parent

Back in 2010 I had the job of translating physical paper from Russian to English. I didn't/don't know Russian, and the instructor's advice was to use Microsoft Word's insert->symbol to manually insert each character in this 10 page paper.

Took some doing, but I found a multi-language OCR program (free trial) that must have had an amazing success rate. When I put the file into google translate, I had a fully-English document, with the only mistakes being around specific jargon!

It was that day that OCR impressed me.

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Thanks Dan, I'll have a look at this - though the scanning isn't the problem for this job. I can remove two staples and put them through the photocopiers at work; it's the OCR bit which proved problematic in the past

Tom Derrick - - Parent

If it's not playing nicely with OCR and is publicly available, could the copy typing be outsourced to the wider community? I'm sure there are a few of us who could spend the odd half hour on an article, and would spread the burden somewhat.

Dee - - Parent


mike.armstrong - - Parent

Thanks folks, I'll get the basics done and up somewhere and then be I'll be in touch with the wider community about making it better

Richard Loxley - - Parent

I have a spare copy of issue 9 (but without the cardboard unicycle cover bonus). That's because the unicycle was missing on my subscription copy, so Stuart gave me another copy that did have the unicycle.

For collectors, it's worth noting that issue 18 was confusingly numbered "Issue 1 Spring 1996 Volume 2" instead of issue 18. They seemed to revert to the old numbering scheme for issue 19!

Jamilah -

hi :)

Mïark - - Parent

hi :)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

hi :)

Little Paul - - Parent

(: ih

7b_wizard - - Parent

hi :o)

Orinoco - - Parent

heh :)

Capricornwhite - - Parent

Hi :)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Whenever I see this kind of action I have to think of this:

Yuri - - Parent


Mike Moore - - Parent

hi :D

Orinoco -

Well done to JonPeat for attending the most juggling conventions this year with an impressive tally of 11. He was closely followed by Luke, Heydar & Daniel who all clocked up 10 festivals.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Wow really? And I thought I hadn't attended many this year, I've been performing every (except during EJC) weekend from May through October so I missed many!! Well, 2 cons I only visited for like 5 hours.. On the other hand there were a couple of circus festivals and other gatherings not listed on the Edge's calendar, so I guess 2016 wasn't such a bad year after all!

I'm looking forward to 2017, many conventions are scheduled already :)

mtb - - Parent

I have managed one, as my best year. I might make two next year....

Mike Moore - - Parent

Impressive! Jealous of you European jugglers, with your dense populations and effective public transportation...

I think my personal best was 7 in a year (2015 and 2014, I think?), with most of them requiring over 5 hours of transit time, and only two reachable by public transit in under 10 hours.

My wedding had more jugglers than some small fests, I should've made a jugglingedge hashtag for it.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I think 4 out of my 10 had a 5h+ transit (one way). But yeah, if you want to visit a lot of cons, the best place to live is probably Germany, haha!

Mike Moore - - Parent

My general rule: if the car ride is under 9 hours, I will go to the fest. If it's longer than that, it is probably a big fest (only done that for IJAs and a Skillcon)(note: "big" here is not necessarily strictly referring to attendance).

In 2018 I'm hoping to add JJF to that list! And an EJC sometime when it's in/near a city I'd like to vacation in.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Come to the EJC this year! It's going to be a good one. Lublin is a lovely city, super cheap too. The same team did a great job with a previous EJC in the same place.

Next year the EJC for some fucking dumb reasons voted to go to an island in the Atlantic. It's going to be either a disaster or the smallest EJC for 30 years. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

2019 will probably be good, but who wants yo wait 2.5 years for an EJC?

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Actually 2018 Azores is one of the EJCs I think I have been most excited about for a while. I doubt it will involve much juggling (on my part at least) but small doesn't mean bad, and I can think of much worse ways to spend my time than hanging out with a bunch of my friends on a beautiful isolated subtropical island.

I do echo your thoughts on Lublin though. Last one was excellent!

lukeburrage - - Parent

Small isn't a problem for hardcore conventioneers who have the budget for an EJC each year. But the reason it will be small is the fact that it's so far away on an isolated island is just a huge fuck you to:
Anyone who wants to drive
Anyone with a family
Anyone who would normally go by train or hitch hike or car share to keep down travel costs
Anyone who wants to take a big tent
Anyone who doesn't like flying
Anyone who wants to stay in cheap non-camping accommodation
Etc etc etc.

Sure, the people who can make it wont complain, but those people aren't the jugglers who I'm concerned about. It's the literally thousands of people who will be excluded because fuck them, they don't have enough money.

The Void - - Parent

So is it your contention that the EJC should always be in central-mainland Europe? I won't be able to afford to go to the Azores, but I'm glad that the EJC can sometimes take the occassional left-field location choice. Plus, EJC-goers voted for it.

lukeburrage - - Parent

If it is going somewhere out of the way, it should at least be to a place that will benefit a strong local juggling scene, and that scene can also help give the convention a boost too. Examples: Finkand, Greece, Ireland. The cost for others coming to the convention was unfortunate, but it gave EJC access to lots of jugglers who would normally be paying to travel in the other direction. The Azores? Not so much.

Plus, EJC goers voted for it? Wasn't it brought up as a three-year-in-advance proposal, competing (at the time) against zero other proposals for 2018? And once it had such approval, who else was going to work on a competing proposal for the same year? I'm not sure how well such a proposal would have done against any other more normal convention plan.

Yesterday I was chatting with friends here in Germany who only heard that the EJC was going to the Azores due to the renegade at the EJC where the host said it was the Azores theme night. They thought the whole thing was a joke.

But then they were enthusiastic about going to an EJC combined with a hot beach holiday. I had to break it to them that the Azores are NOT the Canary Islands, despite both sets of islands being in the Atlantic. I've been to the Azores many times, and I'm not sure I've ever seen the sun. I've certainly not seen any beaches.

Also, what tourist infrastructure does exist on that island is along the south coast, as is the capital city. But where is the EJC? The north coast. Even if the island is a good spot, the EJC is on the wrong side of it, in the opposite direction of most public transport.

Beware of a destination advertising itself for mountain biking.

Maria - - Parent

Some EJC goers voted for it, yeah, but I agree that it was not a fair vote. We voted to go to Lublin in 2017, and then we were asked if we wanted to give EJC 2018 to the Azores, besides the fact that applications for that year had not been submitted yet. People voted yes, but we never really got a chance to vote no because someone interrupted the vote with a question. (I would have voted no if I had got the chance, not because I didn't want an Azores EJC but because I found it unfair to give it away before people had a chance to apply...)

I still have hopes for a nice juggling vacation on a beautiful island though!

The Void - - Parent

I didn't know the details of the vote, thanks Maria. And thanks for the expanded argument, Luke. Holds up better now. :-)

Mike Moore - - Parent

Hmm, If I can find a cheap flight, I'll give it a look. Google's not showing anything less than $1100 round trip right now, so that's a tough sell (especially when there are frequent sales for flights to Tokyo for ~$650).

Maria - - Parent

Dense population? Not all Europeans live in Germany or UK. I certainly don't have lots of juggling conventions nearby... During the last year, the only juggling convention I had within 5 hours travel time was the one me and my friends organized. Sweden needs more jugglers, I think. Wonder if I could help fixing that, maybe I should try to find some people who might want to learn to juggle.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Hah, I actually checked this article ( before posting that because I didn't want to be complaining about nothing. Canada ranking 232 out of 246, I thought I'd be pretty safe!

Mike Moore - - Parent

That said, someone from Southern Ontario complaining about population density is not the same as someone up north doing so! I shouldn't complain.

On the topic of making more jugglers and fests, I'm the sole organizer of the closest fest to me, and a co-organizer of the second closest fest. Organizing something local has its benefits!

Maria - - Parent

I shouldn't complain either, I live close to Stockholm so even though there is usually a long way to travel for conventions, at least I have a juggling club within reasonable distance to go there twice a week.

We can't organize many conventions by ourselves though. Too difficult to get enough jugglers to attend, so that we can afford a gym and sleeping space... Like I said, too few jugglers in Sweden.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Yeah Maria, start a juggling club!

Maria - - Parent

I am one of the board members of a juggling club already (, it's just a really small one... Maybe 5-7 members right now. We have discussed ways to increase the number of members but not really done much yet. I'll try to get the rest of the board to help me organize something, try to get some beginners to discover juggling I guess (since people who already juggles should have been able to find us already if they were interested).

Daniel Simu - - Parent

It's surprising to me that a place with such legendary visitors doesn't have an active juggling community! From the top of my head I can think of 7 jugglers living in Stockholm right now... Though I can imagine none of them would be very interested in attending a weekly club.

Maria - - Parent

I know that there are more jugglers than the ones attending our club, and there are of course other places where one can juggle as well (like different circus places). Cirkus Cirkör has classes in various circus disciplines, including juggling, maybe people choose to go there instead? And yeah, there are some well known jugglers living in Stockholm... Though non-jugglers don't know anything about that.

I'm just not sure how to find the ones that would actually be interested in attending a club, if those people even exist (I mean, in higher numbers than the members we have now).

Daniel Simu - - Parent

In any place where people live, there are people who just don't know yet they are into juggling! Good luck helping them to discover their new passion ;).
I've heard the "not enough new member" problem from many juggling clubs, the only ones I know who've successfully grown were either university groups or started courses ran by people who were passionate about teaching too.

Do all those jugglers at least meet at the convention you organised?

Maria - - Parent

We have discussed starting courses too, but I don't know if we are that passionate about teaching. I mean, I really liked the idea and thought it would be fun, but I'm not the most experienced juggler and don't really have teaching experience either. And the people most suited (one is a teacher in other subjects, one a professional juggler with experience in teaching circus skills as well) have not even been to many club meetings the last half year.

Well... At least I now sent an e-mail to the board, discussing the possibilities of holding a free beginners juggling workshops on one of our first club meetings of the year, and how to make it known for people in Stockholm that this exists. If we can get just a few beginners to show up at the same time (and we actually spend a full hour helping them to get started) the chances of them wanting to continue might be bigger than if there is just one person at the time showing up to find that the least experienced juggler in the club has been juggling for 6 years (that would be me) and that we spend lots of the time either juggling lots of objects or doing complicated club passing patterns.

There were not many Stockholm jugglers at our last convention. To be fair it was not exactly in Stockholm either... But some of them have showed up earlier years for World Juggling Day in the park.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I hope it works out, good luck!

lukeburrage - - Parent

It seems 2004 was my best ever year for conventions, with 20 events as listed on Juggling Edge:

The 8th Durham Juggling Festival
Manchester Juggling Convention 6
16th Bristol Juggling and Circus Skills Convention
Barnard Castle Juggling Convention
Die Keule des Brian - Duesseldorfer Jonglierconvention
27th European Juggling Convention
IJA Juggling Festival 2004
World Juggling Day / weekend
15. Klagenfurter Jonglierfestival
Berlin Convention
20th Nordic Juggling Convention
14th Dutch Juggling Convention
British Unicycle Convention (BUC11)
BJC 2004
Shef Con 2004
Convention Ieper (official + meeting Circusplanet)
Scottish Juggling and Face Painting Convention
1st Bradford Juggling Convention
The Ball Ring 2004

There might have been more that year or others, but it was years later that I updated my attendance at these events.

JonPeat - - Parent

Cor, there were even a couple which I missed this year but did intended to go to!

Must do better next year! :-D

Chris -

Juggling in advertisements

I've been talking with a non-juggler about juggling and how the image that juggling has is unrepresentative. She works in advertising, so I wanted to show her some adverts that include juggling, but can't for the life of me find any adverts, so was wondering if the Edge's collective memory could help me out.

There are two adverts that I remember (although I'm sure there are more). One I think was a taco advert that had two side by side jugglers preparing a taco or burrito or something like that. The other I think was a kitchen advert (I vaguely remember the advert focusing on kitchens that "just work"). They both aired in the UK a few years ago, but I can't recall exactly when.

Any information on these two adverts or any others that you know of would be appreciated.

Orinoco - - Parent

How about we start with these:

Kati Yla-Hokkala (In a kitchen but almost certainly not the one you are thinking of. I think I know the one you mean but can't find it right now.)

Sam Veale

Ivan Pecel

Didn't Rod Laver do an advert for Famous Grouse Whiskey or somesuch?

Orinoco - - Parent

Also Scott Cain wrote an article for the ezine on more Amercan commercials.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Also Gandini Juggling:

7b_wizard - - Parent

"Annette des Forges TV Advert Werbespot mit Jonglage von event-jongleure" [Dutch]

"OBI Hammer-Werbung" MasterFX2000 . It also featured in the news under topic "virale Werbung" ("viral commercials \ advertising"?):

I also remember a numbers juggler (clubs and-or balls), Hochsteiner?, Dietz?, in sort of an aikido gown in totale view on a pedestal with white background in a clip for a car(?) in german tv.

Can't tell what's faked or not, or original or free launched or not.

The Void - - Parent

The Void - - Parent

The Void - - Parent

The Void - - Parent

The Void - - Parent

Orinoco - - Parent

Hmm, lots of ads I haven't seen before.

Interesting what the advertisers feel need to be faked vs the real stuff they keep. Particularly the 13 club back to back passing in the video with Owen & Sean. I think your average muggle would not be able to distinguish between the faked pattern & what Owen & Sean are capable of doing in real life.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Joggling, from the marathon joggling record holder Michal Kapral:

mtb - - Parent

I think that your favourite might also be mine....

7b_wizard -

Hate to have to link to reddit, instead of having such example of vivid communication on juggling content here, but here's a (not all) hot (anymore) thread where it worked perfectly imo: "Hey /r/juggling! What are you training right now?", by thomthomtohomthomtohm. And also this one: "Of the juggling tricks you learned in 2016, which ones are you most proud of?", by Tranquilsunrise.

It's not necessarily the platform - it's posters takin' and doin' that first step to actually do it and POST.

[ I don't know what keeps many from doing what they do in those threads above .. is it they doubt their message or post would ``fit´´ well? Is it they're afraid of their post being off topic, of it becoming a no-replies-yet-post? Is it they post on `hot´ threads only (well, they get hot by YOU posting, right?!) ? Queer. All Lemmings? Consumers? Hard to activate? Do they not live \ juggle anything worth sharing??? Have nothing to say? Do they think they don't juggle good enough to take part in the talk? ]

So all you need is to make your forum what you want it to be by posting whatever you're interested in - after all, that's what they're meant for, right.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I don't care much about a post sinking flat, though it's a shame if I've asked a question and no one responds. Sometimes, I'll just say something into to void, and see if anyone cares much about it.

I suppose I don't start more threads here because I mostly talk about juggling news, and I tend to do that more on /r/juggling than here. I still do read practically every post here.

Orinoco - - Parent

Blimey! What is with all the juggling community existential angst at the moment? Are people worried that 2016 is going to kill juggling or something?

I haven't learnt a single new juggling trick this year. Not one. I don't think I will be the only one on the Edge able to say that, but it is a first for me. Feels a bit weird but over the past few years I've been starting to get frustrated that my level of effort has not been producing the level of results that I wanted. It's nice to realise I can still enjoy juggling without getting overwhelmed by the pressure to achieve.

Happy Christmas everyone.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Certainly no angst intended here! I am optimistic about the future of online juggling communication.

Little Paul -

I've just found this advertised on rec.juggling - where it's obviously not going to get any viewers, so I thought I'd cross post it here:

hey guys,
Ive just built a new juggling community website:

I hope for it to become a place where we can share videos and news and basically anything juggling related.

It looks quite lively at the moment...

York Jugglers - - Parent

I didn't know juggling edge was "built using old technology" (according to jugglingforum's about page), seems to be just 34 links to videos on so far.

(could have used a spellchecker, minimilistic, tut)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Well, php and html is relatively old, right?

I'll have a look, I hope for any online community to succeed, but have little hope...

Orinoco - - Parent

It is true, when I started building the Edge late 2011 I think the PC I had then was about 8 years old, & MS Notepad I was using then has been around since 1983.

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

In I asked if someone wants to write an article about the various online forums. I think there are some people here with a good knowledge of the history and current events related to this. I think it would be an enjoyable read and a great reference. Any volunteers?

lukeburrage - - Parent

In 2006 or 2007 I recorded a Juggling Podcast about what I would like from a juggling discussion site. As I remember, I pretty much described Tumblr before it existed, or kinda the modern state of social media today where people subscribe to other feeds and share things they like in their feed.

The thing is that I thought a juggling thing would be the site, and specific videos or discussions would be part of it. But in reality juggling is just one topic now on many different sites, like Facebook, blogs, Instagram, etc. When I want to discuss juggling, Facebook will always have more jugglers than any dedicated juggling forum like the Edge.

In the modern world, someone's most avid hobby isn't enough to make them not use generic social media by default.

Little Paul - - Parent

in reality juggling is just one topic now on many different sites, like Facebook, blogs, Instagram, etc

Spot on.

Although, I do wonder how different that really is to the early days. In the early-mid 90's usenet was the equivalent of facebook, it was a major social media platform of its day allowing people across the world to find like minded people, keep up to date with friends etc, rec.juggling was just one part of that larger whole.

That sort of got a bit lost in the late 90's/early 2K's with the explosion in the number of websites (caused largely by the dotcom boom lowering the barrier to entry for building/hosting your own site) and subject specific websites flourished.

Since the rise of "new" social media platforms, subject-specific sites are dwindling in their importance.

In related news, I think the days of the personal blog are gone as well now (and I say that as someone who was a voracious blogger in their time) - I've spent the last year trying to decide how best to kill mine.

I think it's going to go some time over the next couple of weeks and be replaced with a page that just points at the bits of the internet I'm active on.

lukeburrage - - Parent

While you are broadly correct about usenet in general, rec.juggling was a specific destination for many jugglers who never looked at the rest of usenet, or at least never once posted to another group.

I think this was because rec.juggling had specific portals via the biggest juggling websites.

For example, I read rec.juggling on and off for years before ever posting, because it was accessible (read-only) via the Juggling Information Service. It was only when there was easy signup via (I think) Deja News when I started participating, and then I worked out my own access via AOL or something later on.

Then with the IJDb, rec.juggling became the default discussion forum of the new biggest juggling website. While I know other interest websites had portals to their usenet group, rec.juggling probably had more people discussing there who didn't even know what usenet was (to them it was just part of the IJDb) than many/most other groups.

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

This is currently the only worthwhile forum I really follow and enjoy.

I check Object Episodes regularly, too, but there is very little activity. What there is, though, is generally high quality.

The facebook groups I've seen (primarily Rock and Home) and the new seem to be nearly only videos with brief comments and very rare quality discussions. I miss the thought out posts that we enjoyed when r.j was in its prime. And with fb, the content gets pushed down so quickly, there is no way to keep up. It's hard to know from all those videos which are really worthwhile, so at least we have eJuggle's Juggler's Scoop and Everyday Juggler's Highlight Reels to roundup the more quality videos. There are also individual jugglers' posts on fb that occasionally have discussions, but good ones are few and far between.

I don't know anything about instagram, tumblr, twitter, reddit, or others. Is there something there that I'm missing out on?

You mention blogs. What are some of the betters ones (for juggling, I mean)? I think that the only one I've been following recently is your (Luke's) vlogging. Perhaps eJuggle counts as a blog, and I do tend to read that ;-). Comments, though, are rare.

So, what else is there that you'd recommend? Is there something better that could be built or do I have to come to terms with the fact that times have changed and social media really serves the vast majority satisfactorily? Is there perhaps some different interface to fb that might be more compatible with what I like about r.j and more traditional forums?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

We all recognise the same problems with modern juggling community platforms... but why does there seem to be no solution to bring back the quality discussions, even with soooo many jugglers around nowadays?

You might be missing out instagram, but I'm not a user either. As far as I hear, it is used a lot by circus artists, perhaps more acrobats than jugglers.

Another blog that sometimes post quality juggling articles is the one from Thom Wall

Orinoco - - Parent

One of the biggest things I've learnt building the Edge is that the platform is spectacularly unimportant, which for a geek like me is a hard fact to accept. Look at that new site's about page, it doesn't mention the supposed subject of the site once, all it talks about is the various code libraries the site is built with. No one cares.

Communication on the web is easy, all that is needed is somewhere to save your content which can be accessed by others. Every platform that has ever been tried has provided this functionality. Yes design flaws are barriers but if people want to communicate they will overcome. Even the most perfect piece of community software will fail if no one has anything to say or the desire to say it.

Too many people are passive consumers of content addicted to their feed. People around me repeatedly check Facebook on their phone throughout the day because they are terrified of missing something interesting in their feed. I have the same psychological problem myself, I have a very addictive & compulsive personality, if I start something I find it very difficult to stop even long past the point I stopped having fun. When I used to play computer games I would make sure I achieved every upgrade & wiped out every enemy on the map even if there was a faster win scenario available. I do not own a smartphone to make sure I don't spend all my time reading on the web.

Facebook has done an excellent job of manipulating people into thinking that they must be plugged in all the time. Fear of loss is much stronger than desire to gain. Try this exercise: Log into FB or Twitter or whatever you use most. Scroll through your feed, keep a tally of all the posts that genuinely interest you & those that don't. Be honest. What percentage of the content interests you? Is that percentage a productive use of your time?

If you want more quality discussions then you need to make them. Turn off your computer & go & do something worth talking about. Go see a show tell us what you thought about it, how did it make you feel? What reactions did it invoke? How did it compare to other shows you've seen? Build something, document the build process, especially the failures. Do some historical research, document what you find & just as importantly how & where you found it.

It definitely feels like there is less discussion about juggling online these days. Your question Daniel about why that is so despite the number of jugglers is an interesting one. I think it is partly a sign of the times in that conversation is becoming a lost art. But I also wonder whether it is a symptom of the state of juggling nowadays. The average skill level of instant jugglers has rocketed over the past few years. The skills they are working on require many more hours of monotonous repetitive practice which is not perceived as interesting enough to talk about?

Marginally related, this is well worth 12 minutes of your time:

7b_wizard - - Parent

[answering the sidethread:] Juggling is adoing. You don't necessarily need to think about it, don't need to word what you do, thus many just do it and if communicate then in real life face to face, showing, using words like "look at this, watch how I do it".
For me, there's much more to it - I like to understand in deep and in detail, know about what my brain, hands, automatisms an' stuff are doing every millisecond, seeking highest possible level of control.

Even when an interesting view or topic is up, there's often few to disagree on, as we all want the same fun and improve some, do cool stuff.

But there's always a lot of options and possibilities like on how to go on from this groundstate or trick or pattern, a great variety to discover - but you can only work on one thing at a time, so prospects on what all there is other to discover sand out in futility. Many just don't invest so much time into juggling and those who do also focus on doing rather than talking about.

If we want content, there's no way around posting it (instead expecting some this or that shaped platform to provide it for us to consume).

But I'm not sure, that was only a brainstorm lol.

7b_wizard - - Parent

See also, hot vivid juggling content threads, [ x-cross{Edge}-cross{reddit}-post ]

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

It seems as if social media has caused people to not be 100% where they are. We now leave bits of ourselves in different places. This makes conversation harder I think. The example of the facebook 'checker' - I actually know someone that lives more for facebook than actual reality, like an imaginary audience syndrome. Being very late to social media/smartphones etc it was frustrating watching something gradually being lost in the people around me, a bit like The Body Snatchers, except it's our minds.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Wow, you guys are really down on social media! It's actually pretty cool.

el_grimley - - Parent

I think it really depends on the contributor, observer and the service.

My view is that people, like you, who are nett contributors to social media, who are mostly interested in what they are creating, and have an interested audience, are likely to get a lot out of it. However those who are creators but simply for the purpose of audience and have little or no audience could find it particularly disheartening experience. Also if they are posting particularly distasteful political views they may be excluded from some social media platforms and move to others which only share their own world views, which can only lead to bad things.

Users who mainly observe may also experience some negatives of social media but again it really depends on the individual. I've met a LOT of people who constantly check their phone to see what things others are doing. Let's face it people generally post the more fun aspects of their lives and so with x number of contacts on social media someone is always going to be doing something cooler. Which leads to either people not taking part in the moment they are in or feeling down that they aren't off doing something cool. Personally I take the approach of checking social media and email as task to be undertaken rather than a quick looksee. This works for me but will not suit everyone and has left me in the pub on the odd occasion with people all on their phones. From this I have discovered who is more fun to be a the pub with and that I am not able to lick my own elbow.

On the services themselves; almost by definition you trade a lot of personal information in exchange for the platform you are using. Some people are cool with trading in loads and others less so.

Orinoco - - Parent

Have you tried the other elbow?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, that about page was terrible!

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

Try this exercise: Log into FB or Twitter or whatever you use most. Scroll through your feed, keep a tally of all the posts that genuinely interest you & those that don't. Be honest. What percentage of the content interests you? Is that percentage a productive use of your time?

Yes, that is my problem. I hope that fb will come up with an algorithm to weed out what I don't want. Maurizio has kindly done it for me here:

Should there be a fb group for juggling talk (no video postings)? Would that even work? Is it necessary or do people prefer to be in the big ones that have mostly videos but also allow for discussions?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Juggling home was an interesting group for me in the first months... People were highly motivated to make a fun group without the trash/overflow from JugglingRock, the group was smaller so you'd recognise the posters, Peter Bone would make an effort to answer all questions...

Anyway, if anyone starts a non-video group on fb, I'd join and try to participate

lukeburrage - - Parent

I've seen them as interchangeable for a while now, though there is a different set of people chatting in each. However, when Juggling Home first began I was asked by some people who used it (and/or were kicked out of Juggling Rock) to also post my combat news and videos and other things to Juggling Home too, so people there didn't miss out.

Theoretically I'd also join and enjoy a Facebook group with no videos, but I can't help but think most people would see it as unbearably smug or stuck up. Remember this forum is called Small Talk? What happened to Big Talk?

lukeburrage - - Parent

I think you might be approaching this from the wrong direction. How about this:

Juggling is a physical, practical, and visual pursuit. By default, the best way to communicate an idea in juggling is to SHOW it. Which means that now, in the world of hugely popular video sharing forums like JugglingRock, Juggling Home, Facebook in general, and Instagram, there is more communication of juggling ideas and skills than ever before.

We are in a golden age of juggling communication!

BEFORE juggling videos were so easy to make and share, jugglers had to communicate by putting their juggling concepts into words, and then writing those words down, and hoping other people would find those words interesting enough to translate into something they could try them, or at least be able to visualise enough to understand and appreciate.

While those of us on this forum grew up in that textual world were comfortable with it, the ideas that are being shared now are far beyond what was shared before. Being able to quickly and easily make a video is far more accessible than writing.

I've noticed that skills and techniques are being shared now, and becoming super popular, that have no names. Wes Peden will invent a whole new style or concept like bouncing a ball off a different body part, and without using any language it is picked up by other jugglers. They develop it further and show other people either in person or, more likely, in their video, and it grows from there.

We used to have to communicate patterns with siteswap and other notation. While it's still handy to say "throw a 7 then a 5" in some cases, the more natural way is to see it on video. Siteswap is becoming less and less important, and this frees up jugglers to learn and share tricks that don't fit into the restrictions that make siteswap so powerfully simple.

Of course there are many areas that would be more suited to long-form written discussion, but those are either business/practical subjects like performing or being a professional, or academic subjects like the history of juggling. But when juggling for the sake of juggling, videos will win out.

On the other hand, I've had plenty of discussions about juggling recently on Facebook. But they were private discussions on Facebook Messenger. The good thing about Facebook is that it gives everyone the same access to the most popular jugglers. If someone wants to message Wes Peden or Jay Gilligan or me or anyone, we're just a friend request away. As long as someone looks like a juggler, I'll accept a friend request. I've chatted with people all over the world about juggling and combat and performing and all sorts. Why does it have to be in public? If I'm repeating myself, I just write about a topic on my blog and link to it again later.

With my new vlogging project, I'm still seeing how it will develop, but I'd like to see if I can find a form that suits me so I can talk more in depth about specific juggling topics such as performing or choreography and being a professional or training. Things which it's possible to see in non-verbal videos, but make a lot more sense just said out loud.

I noticed Wes Peden's bonus tricks PX4 video was similar, in a way. He talked about what tricks got into the main video and what didn't, and it became much clearer how he thinks about juggling videos and trick selection and all kinds of things. If you know what to look for it would be possible to see those things in the main video, but him just saying it in another video was far clearer.

Was it better for Wes to put that in a video? Should he have posted it to a blog? To a forum? I'm not sure that would have been better.

Anyway, those of us who like writing were always in the minority in the juggling world, but because the internet was so bad for videos, we were the majority of jugglers communicating online.

Now video is more easy than writing, we feel like we are in the minority for the first time. But it's not the first time, it's just that the internet now reflects the juggling world more accurately.

Orinoco - - Parent

Over the past few months I've definitely shifted to watching & enjoying a lot more video content. Finally getting broadband has been a big help obviously but I think the quality of internet videos has increased significantly.

Every Frame a Painting has come up a couple of times on the Edge before & I've been enjoying stuff from CGP Grey & Nerdwriter. All these are examples of 'video essays' a term I discovered after watching this video at the beginning of the year:

I can now see a future where video could supplant text as my medium of choice.

lukeburrage - - Parent

For a long time video makers seemed to want to show off the visual content more than the "text". This led to many videos with very low information density. Start with themes, titles, etc. Show montages set to music. Long transitions between scenes. All that kind of thing.

Due to the massive oversupply of videos now, video makers publishing on YouTube have realised they have to make their videos super dense.

The most simple way of doing this is to film a single shot of yourself talking, and then cut out all the gaps and ums and erms and errors, in the style of the Vlog Brothers and pretty much everyone else since. It's very effective! If a bit artless.

This video essay style is another way. Have a narrator ALWAYS speaking, and show as many quick cut shots on screen to show examples and, in between points made visually, to keep up the energy.

Personally I still enjoy reading long form news and blog posts and all that, but most of my popular science input now comes from YouTube videos.

The Void - - Parent

The God Emperor has broadband? It must be 2016.

Little Paul - - Parent

Well something good had to come out of 2016 eventually

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I liked Wes' bonus video much better than the PX4 video which it was about. Could it have been in blog format? Probably not. I guess I'll just have to wait until all youtube videos are auto transcribed at a high quality so that all of the internet's videos become properly searchable!

Same goes for private chats. I have and had many interesting conversations, both on facebook and in person, with jugglers. I'm sad that I can't search through those of others..
This is one of the reasons why I'm starting JuggleJabber, I've met so many interesting jugglers in the past and if anyone else is a bit like me, I'm sure they would have loved to listen to those conversations! Even I want to relisted to them, and through this podcast I now have the ability!
But private conversations of others remain inaccessible, unstructured, unpublished.

I agree that there is a lot of communication going on through videos and that this is a good thing!

lukeburrage - - Parent

One reason I started the Juggling Podcasts years ago was the same. I kept having interesting conversations with jugglers and thought other people would like to join in! I also had an interview with Viktor Kee coming up, for the Kaskade Magazine, and knew we would cover way more than would fit in the article.

mtb - - Parent

This was a great comment, thanks.

The increase in videos is something positive, even if most of them are like mine, and pretty uninspired.

I wonder if there is a general increase in short one-trick things, which is probably how it was in the early days, where you would have a .gif of a simple trick, given the need to get people's time in small bites.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I reluctantly got instagram recently to follow some really good juggling that only gets posted there. I've found it very worthwhile so far, and have been selective with who I follow. Mostly because I don't like that medium, so if someone always reposts their instagram videos on Facebook, I'll watch them on Facebook exclusively.

I've never found tumblr or twitter useful for juggling. I enjoy reddit's juggling subreddit quite a lot.

Thom! -

Winners! - IJA Video Tutorial Contest 2016

Some really beautiful entries this year. Be sure to check out the link to see all of the tutorials - so many new things to learn!

Thanks to everyone who entered! Thanks to the sponsors! Thanks to the crack team of juggling judges!


VTC Director Guy

Mike Moore - - Parent


Indeed, great entrants this year. I've only looked at 5-10 so far, but am looking forward to going through them all.

Mike Moore -

Juggling hype is high.

Between everyone putting out videos to vye for a top 40 spot, and all the IJA video tutorial contest entries, I can't sit still. It's time to go juggle (by myself, no distractions...for the first time in months).

mtb - - Parent

Yeah. I have actually been juggling again!

Putting out little 30 second videos of random things send like a fun exercise too. Might try and stick with it, but do not hold your breath....

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