Viewing all threads involving Little Paul
Can I interest anyone in a couple of old VHS tapes?
Bobby May: Great American Juggler (I love this tape - I really wish I still had something to play it on!)
Radical Club News: This Just In (the one with the blue cover) by Peapot
Free to any home!
I’ll take the Bobby May one, my copy got lost in a house move about 10 years ago.
I’ve even got a machine that’ll play it!
I still have a VHS player too, nowadays I only use it as input to a DVR in order to convert a VHS tape to a digital format/platform
Is the BJC dying a slow death?
I've not been for a few years so I was quite surprised to hear how few are expected to attend this year. Fewer than half the amount of people that used to go about 10 years ago.
Is this a sign of a fall in the numbers of young jugglers taking up the hobby or are there just more events dividing up the pool of likely attendees?
BJC numbers are always down when it's in a "far corner" of the UK. Of course, we're well down from the early 90s heyday, but that's been true for years.
The last 2 with figures for attendance on http://thebritishjugglingconvention.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=BJC_History (both in Darton) are over 900. That's pretty good. I'm sure Perth will have been well down on that, and I guess it makes sense for Canterbury to budget on a low figure too. We'll see how it goes, I guess....
I wouldn't have called Kent a far flung corner. Not compared with Yorkshire. I suppose I'd need to know more about the concentration of jugglers around the country but I would have assumed London and Bristol to be hotspots.
Anyway I hope you're right because 500 seems a small number to me.
Where are you getting 500 from? *If* it's their budgeting figure, that's presumably a worst case scenario, and therefore it wouldn't be unreasonable to *hope for* 600-700. Dunno, I'm guessing...
From the horse's mouth. Budgeting figure is even lower.
Good to know the last couple were around 900. That's a good number.
When people are deciding between BJC or Catch it can't be a good thing.
There has to be a number where it is no longer viable in its current form.
Mind you, under 500 and we could do it at Hulver farm
British Balls Up anyone?
There are no numbers on that site for attendance for the last 2 (anyone know?). 900s were 2014 & 2015.
Well, here's hoping...
> When people are deciding between BJC or Catch it can't be a good thing.
Why not? I see that it's a risky situation, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. It seems to me that the BJC does not have a right to be pre-eminent, it needs to earn that status.
I meant it can't be a good thing for the BJC. It might well be a good thing for juggling.
It already seems quite hard to get people to commit to running one, if numbers decline who's going to take the risk of making a big loss?
Maybe both can be successful?
Anyway, come to BJC and eat at Montegriffo's.....
I wouldn't have called Kent a far flung corner. Not compared with Yorkshire
Spoken like a southerner ;-)
I'm currently a southerner, living in Bristol. But I'd still rather travel to Yorkshire rather than Kent! There's this annoying thing called London in the way, which adds stress and considerable time, whatever method of transport you use.
I will make the effort anyway, because I want to go to the BJC. But I can see why anyone in the Midlands or above would think twice.
Canterbury is more than twice as far from the centre of the UK population as Darton is.
Where's the centre of the UK population?
About one in seven live in London, must be getting on for a third of the population are South of Watford.
From a comment on an Ordnance Survey page: "Yes, one of our Twitter followers suggested this too. It’s not something we’ve worked out ourselves, but @MurrayData says that using a population weighted approach centre of GB is approximately 433924E 309573N (Measham Rd Swadlincote Leics.)"
Yeah, erm, Swadlincote's in Derbys not Leics - only just, but Derbys nevertheless. Not a good start, although if I had to guess the GB population centre I'd probably go for somewhere not too far from Swad.
Also, Swad is mostly an unmitigated shithole, but then that probably makes it a good representative of some sort of median of the British population. I have worked a lot in Swad.
These Swad facts brought to you by Cedric Lackpot, who has nothing of value to add to this thread, but knows a damn thing or two about Swadlincote!
The main reason I won’t be returning to the BJC again soon, and the reason why I don’t recommend it to European jugglers when they ask me about it, is the time of year and the accompanying high chances of bad weather.
That’s the reason I’m not going again this year. The better time of year is also the main reason I’m going to the Catch festival this year.
If the BJC was held in July, I’d probably go every year.
That's rather a silly reason not to recommend it, Luke. Yes, some BJCs have had awful weather, but plenty have had good weather, even the ones held in the far flung North. Also, last time I went to the Lakes in the summer we had really quite a lot of rain.
There's no guarantee of good weather at any time of year, although it's likely to be a lot warmer in the summer of course. I'd be more inclined to talk about the shows, workshops, halls and general vibe of the BJC than the weather - if nothing else, to avoid becoming a national stereotype!
Not, it's not a silly reason. It's a major factor for me, and judging from the feedback I get from non-UK jugglers who visit the BJC, it's also the main complaint they have.
In Europe, if a convention is held in the winter, camping isn't expected. It's an indoor sleeping convention, with entire sports halls or other rooms set aside for people to lay out mats and sleeping bags. If the convention is late spring to early autumn, camping becomes an option. The BJC insists that camping is an option, even when the chances of bad weather is worse than good weather.
For example, Berlin held its convention in September last year, due to some date conflicts, and everyone expected the weather to be fine. But it wasn't. It was waaay colder than it is in May or June, the normal date for the event, and it got dark way earlier. So now the convention has moved back to the summer again.
Just so you know, the shows, workshops, halls and vibes at the BJC are no better than other national conventions in Europe. There is nothing to recommend them above conventions at better times of year and with better weather than the BJC. The chances of bad weather in March in Scotland though? Camping on the top of a mountain in Yorkshire in April, with tents being blown away? No thanks!
Rain isn't so much of a problem if the temperature isn't too bad. Just the difference from March to May was enough for it not to be too stressful for us to camp at Bungay. But the BJC that same year? Nope, we got a B&B.
Canterberry in April:
Cumbria in July:
If you are wondering about reduced numbers of people at the BJOC, I think the comparison you want is Perth, Scotland, in March and anywhere in the UK in July.
Perth in March:
Average high 6.4°C
Average low 2.1°C
Canterbury in July:
Average high 22.8°C
Average low 12.9°C
Penrith (closest city to Appleby) in July:
Average high 19.4°C
Average low 10.5°C
Conclusion: if the BJC was in July, anywhere in the UK, I'd probably go and be okay to camp every year.
I may not agree with a whole lot of what Luke has to say - and I'm pretty confident he's perfectly cool to be disagreed with - but I confidently and assertively agree that the climate is not a silly reason.
And it's certainly nowhere near as silly as saying that the British climate is unpredictable at all times of year, and therefore implying that the probability of seasonal or non-seasonal weather is immaterial regardless of the time in question!
There are a number of good reasons to hold BJCs at or around Easter - the weather is not one of them.
I have to agree, the damn weather and having to camp is always a factor that is lurking in the background, taking the edge off my anticipation. I am not the best camper - can't sleep well in a tent, so this year for the first time we have opted for the local Premier Inn. It does feel like a cop out but seeing as my hot water bottle is going to the IJC I couldn't face a week sleeping in a cold tent.
That being said the British EJC in 2019 will be in August and I am hoping that it will be considerably warmer and with little rain! Newark is only 50 miles from Swad so not far off being pretty central and we really really hope that we can entice as many jugglers, hoopers, diabolists, aerialists etc to it as we can.
As it is in Britain I am hoping to attract not only all the wonderful people from all over the world who come to EJC but all of those Brits that have never been to one before.
I know there is another EJC before it (2018 - Azores) but I am just slipping it in now so it's in your subconscious!!
PS the EJA are looking for a team for 2020, so if you know someone who might be interested in finding out more about organising a huge event like the EJC then send an email to email@example.com
Let me ponder my BJC camping history:
2000 - so wet I never pitched my tent, and slept in the car instead.
2001 - some nice weather, but freezing cold one night and as it pouring with rain on the last day, it was the least pleasant final day of a convention ever.
2002 - after two years of terrible weather, I skipped the BJC completely! I went to the Israeli convention instead. The weather was amazing.
2003 - didn't camp, got a room at the university instead. People complained about ice on their tents. This was Brighton, not Scotland, so the location isn't always the most important thing.
2004 - performer, and was provided accommodation.
2005 - performer, and was provided accommodation.
2006 - performer, and was provided accommodation.
2007 - performer, and was provided accommodation.
2008 - performer, and was provided accommodation.
2009 - got myself a B&B, but as this was a summer convention, I would probably have been happy to camp.
2010 - BJC switched back to a winter convention again, and I decided to skip it again.
2011 to 2013 - nope.
2014 - borrowed my parents' camper van.
2015 - camper van not an option, didn't want to camp in the same place where the previous year peoples' tents had blown away.
2016 - nope.
2017 - B&B again.
Ah look, I literally only camped at a BJC once! The only reason I kept going was being either by paying for accommodation myself, or being offered non-camping options for performing various acts in various shows.
Premier Inn is not a cop out, it's the only way sensible adults will keep returning to a camping convention in the winter/early spring!
This seems to be a wall of evidence that you have very little experience of camping at a BJC, but didn't enjoy it one time 7 years ago.
Doesn't seem fair to the British scene to spend so much time and energy discouraging others on that basis Luke.
It's not just the camping. It's the general wet and cold atmosphere. In 2009 the convention was in the summer in Norfolk. I went to the FIRE SHOW. I sat outside and watched the fire show and it wasn't the most miserable moment of my entire year. Do you know how amazing that felt? A BJC fire show which wasn't utterly unbearable to watch. Wow. And in the evenings we were hanging out on the grass between the gyms. The renegade show tent didn't need space heaters. Nobody was wrapped up for winter for no reason at all except the sun had gone down. We could watch the Sharpe brothers do their street show, just outside one day, and it wasn't remarkable that the wind wasn't so bad they couldn't do any diabolo tricks.
Then my next BJC, when hosting the games, I had to make announcements that people's tents were blowing away, and they should go check on them before we left for the gala show.
It's not about my camping experience, it's about having a relaxing time at a convention.
Again, the Berlin convention miscalculated with holding it in September last year, and the very next year it is back to June, based ENTIRELY on the weather and how soon it got dark. How did it take them one year to learn the lesson but the BJC keeps at it?
I hope that after the Catch this year and the EJC next year, people will finally learn, and the BJC can be a summer convention from now on. Or at least a late-May to late-Augst convention.
It is true the BJC fire show is consistently unbearable to watch, but I have never attributed that fact to the weather.
*Tries to donate a fiver to The Edge, for that comment*
*Finds out there's a minimum £10 donation*
It wasn't *that* funny. Cash at BJC do ya?
As others have said, you've hardly ever camped at a BJC so I don't think you're really qualified to comment. I've camped at BJCs since 1993 (Birmingham) with a few gaps and I've never felt particularly cold, been woken up by bad weather or had a leaky tent. It has *been* cold, I agree, but with decent clothing and a good sleeping bag that's not a problem. Yes, it can be cold & wet outside but I've also sat outside on the grass in a T-shirt some years. In fact the one time I've been flooded out was at EJC Ptuj (which was the very definition of wet and cold and miserable).
Of course the BJC could be in the summer. It has been, in Norwich, after plans for the usual time fell through, as you said, and it was lovely and warm. It could be any time from late May (but don't you dare schedule it against Bungay, otherwise I shall be *really* scathing). It could be at Christmas. But someone has to stand up and volunteer to run it at that time and this bid has to be voted through at the business meeting - you know how this works. They'll then have to contend with competing with other festivals (including non-juggling ones), university exams and all the others things that may not have such impact in late March/early April/Easterish, availability of venues not in the Easter holidays and lots of other factors.
There's no point writing 'people will actually learn' in the hope it will happen - it will take someone to stand up and come up with a concrete plan for a summer BJC. As you know, there's no British Juggling Association running BJCs <nails lid firmly back on big can of worms> just whoever stands up and volunteers a year of their life.
I think we have an interesting situation this year with Catch! which is kind of an alternative BJC-ish thing in the summer with great acts in the show. This may well prove that a summer BJC-ish festival could work, in which case I look forward to many more bids of this kind.
No, I think I am qualified to comment. The point of my comment is that the bad weather has been the deciding factor in why I decided not to go to the BJC. And not just once. After York and Cardiff, I didn't go back to the BJC, and went somewhere else instead. Same in 2010. Same in 2015. Same in 2017.
The people who are happy to camp in the ice/snow/wind/rain/etc of the UK in March/April? You don't have to worry about them. But what about all the people whose first BJC was Derby in 2004? How many people didn't bother coming back the next year? Even though I didn't camp, I drove home to Newcastle with two people who did, and the stop in a pub on the way home for dinner, and sitting in front of the fire, was the first time they had felt properly warm and comfortable for the previous five days.
The people who don't go to the BJC are the ones qualified to talk about why they don't go, and are 100% correct about the reasons the numbers might be down... at least for the number they represent.
The people who DO go to the BJC, by the fact they can cope with the stress of bad weather, are not qualified to talk about the reasons the people who don't go aren't going.
I've gone to the BJC once (I think 2015?). I had to sleep inside on the last night, it was a rainy festival.
I'm going again this year, very happy to bring my campervan!
That's a good point, no one likes going anywhere when it's cold and sodden. Why don't they hold the festival mid-summer?
The historic reason for the BJC being at Easter rather than in the summer is that performers are much more likely to not be working at that time. Whether as a performer in the show who charges less than their normal fee or as an attending performer who doesn't want to miss out on the lucrative summer months Easter makes much more sense. Touring circus often runs from after Easter until sometime in Autumn, so the timing would help them to attend. Nowadays BJC does not have as many professional entertainers and so this is not as good an argument as before. It still might mean that it is difficult to get the best professionals, although Rosie seems to be showing that a summer convention with enough funding can do that anyway.
If you get 2,000 people at the convention, you can pay professionals to be there. It’s how the EJC works. There is no reason a BJC in the summer can’t attract 2,000 people.
I wasn't arguing in favour of an Easter BJC. I too enjoyed the summer BJC (although it cost me earnings). I was giving one of the traditional arguments for an Easter BJC. It makes sense for professional entertainers. I'm not sure it makes much sense for the majority of people who now attend the BJC.
Yes, I understand. My first BJC in 2000, it seemed that the main influence on a large portion of the jugglers there was street performers and circus performers. These days the largest influence is other amateur jugglers. Why would anyone have a pair of stilts or a unicycle to take part in a parade? Why does the parade even exist? Does it still exist?
Oh god. Parades. Please make them stop.
I know it's quite often a hook you can dangle towards the local city council to get some money off a venue, or land some other source of funding, but when you promise them a "colourful entertaining parade of jugglers acrobats and circus folk!" they picture an old fashioned circus parade. They picture tumbling acrobats, sequins and clowns. They picture free facepainting for the public, they picture ringmasters and jugglers and absolutely everything you can't deliver.
What they inevitably get is a bunch of people half heartedly walking along juggling 3 clubs or spinning a diabolo while talking to their mates and shuffling down the local high street. At best you might get one or two people wearing balloon hats, or a teenage unicyclist trial riding on every park bench or raised flower bed they can find.
Parades are at their absolute worst when everyone is only there because you made them attend the parade as a side effect of getting the bus into town for the evening show.
Parades are shit. "Because we've always done it" isn't a good enough reason.
EJC parades can still be good fun if the weather is nice. There's often an open air show on a specially build stage at the end of it, and those are usually worth seeing, like Smashed by the Gandinis in Almere (though not like 8 Songs by the Gandinis in Lublin).
Is it the parade which is good, or is it the "show on the open air stage" bit which is good?
Because I would wager that of the two, the open air show is the bit that could stand on it's own. Do that, do more of that. Advertise it locally, get the public in as well, make a big deal of the fact that there's a show in town!
Who is the parade for?
If it's for the locals, then we're doing them a massive disservice (even EJC parades are closer to the atmosphere of a protest march than they are "rio carnival")
If it's for the jugglers, then what's in it for us apart from a show or "the games" at the end of it? If it's a show/games then why do we need to wander round the streets for an hour first? Why can't we be dropped off next to the show and just get on with the good bit?
Want to do something for the locals that actually shows jugglers in a good light? Put on more shows, run a street performing competition, run free-fringe style events in small local venues...
Just please, not a bloody miserable death march through town.
As a young juggler I really enjoyed my first 5 parades or so.. Now after 15 at least it gets a bit unexciting yes..
I've really enjoyed the EJC parades I've been on, simply due to the amount of jugglers taking part - I think there's a critical mass. EJC Almere was particularly fun (especially our Ben occasionally pausing to show the crowd his single diabolo trick and getting rounds of applause - he was 6 at the time) and EJC in Carvin was mad, as it was at night and there was fire (health & safety??). I agree some BJC parades can be damp and disappointing.
I have exactly the opposite logic. BJC is my preferred convention because it's much cooler than in the summer. This means that I can juggle a lot without getting too hot. I don't care much about being outside. At most EJCs I've been to I'm unable to juggle most of the time because of the heat and I don't like to be outside in very hot conditions because of sunburn and other risks. I normally only go to the more northerly EJCs, although Joensuu didn't work out as I expected (40°C).
Also no fun when you have to leave your tent at 8am because the blazing sun is hitting it and roasting you alive. I've camped at every BJC I've been to and the only time I was cold was 2003 in Brighton because of the ice/snow.
You're not a tropical creature like me. Give me the early morning roasting sun anyday. I'd just go and find a nice shady spot and finish my sleep there. Or go to bed earlier. Camping in the snow.. are you quite mad? I went 'wild' camping at Brecon Beacons after the green man festival. It was horrible, damp and miserable.. couldn't wait for it to end. The only enjoying part I remember was when I was sitting in my car with the heating on.
I'm going for the first time from the continent just because it's close to the border! Don't kill my hype :P
You'll have a great time. I've enjoyed every BJC I've been to. I am excited for this one.
You will indeed have an excellent time. Sadly I don't think I can make it this time (due to foreign travel for work the next week) but I'll certainly miss it.
Living in Washington DC, currently working on fun 3B patterns and 4B/5B multiplex patterns.
Feel free to say hello!
Ticket sales are now open for CATCH! a juggling and circus festival in Cumbria this July. Go to the website* to purchase, or buy them off me at a juggling event like BJC of Hulabulloo club on Wednesdays, or go to a local tourist information centre in Appleby and buy them.
-...?..?..?..?.. come on I got 4 more awesome top jugglers to announce and I cant until I sell 200 tickets help me make this be the best juggling convention ever!
Word of mouth is the best way to spread the new convention to everyone so even if you cant make it, tell others, so they can come have fun!
Can I ask why your event is more expensive than the BJC (I buy early bird but your website doesn't suggest the ability to do this for your event) but also shorter? Yours is an unknown and I believe that you were aiming to get Arts Council funding for it, whereas I pretty much know what I am getting with a BJC. I'm asking because whilst I would like to go (mainly because of David Cain) I have no incentive to book early and it is at a time of year when I might get a lot of work suddenly.
> Can I ask why your event is more expensive than the BJC
BJC tickets just went up to £130; Catch tickets are £100. Shome mishtake shurely?
yeah..i dont quite know what you mean I just looked and BJC says its 130?? and mine (CATCH) is £100?
or was the BJC 90 or something until recently??? sorry I cant give a good answer but I'm not sure if this was just a mistake
Also if you think you will have to work lots and can not take the holiday to come then thats okay, no worries! it can be hard to get holidays to go to all the juggling event you want, i would end up with most of the year off! haha
take care! x
BJC was £90 or £100 when I pre-reg'd back in whenever. It's gone up now but then there is a reason why there are early bird tickets. The point was I was asking about your price compared to what I paid for BJC tickets because BJC is firstly a known festival, is a day longer and is being subsidised by the Arts Council. As someone who normally brings a small troop (aka my family) I do look at the cost of the ticket. If I'm not working I might well turn up myself but maybe not bring the other 4. Did you price Catch based on full price BJC tickets? Did you consider early bird tickets? Why are 17 year olds priced as adults when they don't earn as adults? (and yes I know the BJC is worse for teenagers). Also as someone who runs a youth circus (soon to be a community circus) it isn't just me I ask for. I tend to promote events that might interest others I know and your answer came across poorly.
take care! x
I'm not sure if you're aware of how aggressive you're coming across Nigel.
I'm sure you're not intending to do so, you're just trying to work out where the value is coming from for the ticket price - which is a reasonable question!
I get that text is a difficult medium to express tone in, however I have felt a little bit awkward reading your posts on this matter to be honest, and I'm not the one putting the event on!
It is, of course, entirely up to you what you spend your money on. CATCH! and BJC are different events.
I'm looking at the two of them, and think that personally CATCH! has more of the sort of stuff that I like, and it's a one-off event that I'm not going to get two chances to attend - so I'm happy to put my money on that horse. I'm aware that I have different criteria than you, I'm aware that I have different limitations I have to take into account. Horses for courses!
Berating Rosie for pricing her event at £10 more than the BJC advance ticket price (a price which doesn't represent what the majority of BJC attendees will pay) seems a little OTT.
take care! x
(BTW I'm liking this new way of signing off posts, I mean, I know Nigel was doing it passive-agressively, but we should do more of this wishig-people-well stuff!)
I don't see berating coming from Nigel. I see an honest question inspired by an earnest desire to know the reasoning behind the pricing, along with suggestions of points that convention organisers ought to be considering.
My first question was completely genuine and not meant in any way aggressively. I thought that the reply was dismissive and aggressive and I tried to add to my question without being a complete arsehole. I'm sorry that I am coming across as aggressive because I thought the question was relevant.
Take care. (not sure about the x)
I also found this overly aggressive. I can't see anything dismissive or aggressive in Rosie's reply to you but seeing as she was the second person to question the logic of your first post giving her the benefit of the doubt & explaining your position would have been a better approach.
If juggling festivals were simply a profit making venture I would understand the reasoning that pricing should be based on other 'competing' events. But seeing as juggling festivals are thankfully not a winner takes all capitalist venture organisers should base the ticket price on the cost of running their festival. If you set prices based on the cost of someone else's festival you are on a road to ruin.
Catch! is being held in the summer holiday season when venues & event equipment are usually at a premium so I'm impressed Rosie has kept the cost down. I spent considerably more than £100 to see Kris Kremo at EJC 2006 & it was well worth it.
Take care! x (I might auto-append that to all posts...)
As stated, I booked early bird because firstly it helps BJC and secondly it is cheaper. Catch! doesn't have an early bird price so there is no incentive to book early on. This means that Rosie will have no idea of numbers and if the weather forecast for that week is appalling (which can happen in the Lake district) less people will have the incentive to go as they will have left it until later to book their tickets (or not booked at all). If numbers are not relevant to her convention (because of alternate funding) then why put the price at £100 (which doesn't compare well with early bird BJC ticket price as BJC is longer).
I'm not doing BJC this year, our plan is to do CATCH! instead.
However, I'm changing job around Easter and I can't say for sure if I'll be able to book the time off until then, but as soon as I'm able to I'll be jumping on the booking form!
thank you! and we've still got some great names to come!
who would be on your wish list? maybe we can make it happen! :D
Oh goodness...this will be a very /me/ list. And mostly people I would want to talk to at fests, rather than perform:
Dave Kelly (what's he up to these days?)
Strictly for performers...hard to say. Maybe Alexander Kulakov? Maybe a whipping diaboloist?
excellent list!!...i know most of those without having to even look them up..i must be getting better at this!
also maybe one of the names you've mentioned will be there! keep an eye on our website/facebook for artist announcements :D
I haven't booked yet as I need to have a good think about my finances.
To be honest, I had to reappraise my attendance when I found out that cooking won't be allowed on the campsite.
(It sounds like that's out of the control of the convention organisers as it's a restriction of the site licence. Also, the convention seems to be planning to add a space elsewhere where campers can cook.)
But it's a right faff to carry a cooker, pans, and food over to a dedicated cooking area for every meal for a week. That would seriously impact my enjoyment of the festival.
So instead I've decided to look at it as being like the BJC, where it's more practical to just buy all meals from the caterers. But that adds quite a financial burden, effectively doubling the ticket cost for me.
So I would still very much like to come, but it really depends on how much money I have nearer the time!
no problem dude! take the time to make sure its the right decision, and don't put yourself under a financial burden just for a juggling convention!
Hope to see you there!
What time does the campsite open? And close? I've a long drive, so would have to work out my travels times/days.
I don't frequently check this site so apologies for a delayed response!
Campsite is opening Monday afternoon, at the moment we're saying 2 in the afternoon.
Everyone off site by 6pm Friday
Do you juggle more than you walk?
Kneejerk reaction: of course not!
But now that I'm thinking about it...I'm not so sure. If we exclude walks under a couple minutes, then it's very close.
Same... If I count every step as walking, I definitely walk more than I juggle (especially since it is not uncommon to walk while juggling, too).
If I only count outdoor walking it might actually be less than the juggling, even though I walk to work every day. Or maybe about the same amount of time.
Yes - meant walking several steps at least, so also walking around to pick up dropped balls, just as much as walking out of the house anyway. But not tripping single steps to correct one's positon while juggling, and also not taking one-two steps towards a dropped ball to pick it up while already bending down, but just really normally walking upright.
Basically, if one sits or drives a lot and doesn't usually need to walk a lot, AND-OR gets long runs a lot while juggling, not walking around a lot while practising, but rather mostly standing, then there's a great chance that they'd juggle more than they walk.
Does walking while juggling count as both walking and juggling? (For example passing patterns where you are walking... I do those a lot.)
Does walking from the kitchen to the livingroom count, or only walking more than a few steps?
[see answer & distinction two posts above] .. I don't know what made me have that thought, but it struck me that I am actually juggling way more than I walk. Why "walk"? .. well, it's sooo genuinely normal, we think we do it always and forever and it's so omnipresent, it's part of our definition as upright walking humans. Yeah .. wrong! - we don't do it as much as we think .. we have cars, bikes, trams, planes, trains, busses; we have professions and desks where we sit; and for many people, jogging, walking, taking a walk, wandering is an activity that they (have to) take extra time for. Walking is not ``always there´´ as one might easily first think.
So, one juggler might indeed be juggling (notably) more time than doing what seems granted fro a member of the human upright walking species.
( It's a bit analogue to the insight that modern (over)civilized humans don't walk anymore as much as they used to and not walk as much anymore as what they were ``originally meant for´´, but have cars and sit a lot now, instead. Just that now for juggling, and if it's true for you. )
if we take walking as an activity, not just moving yourself through the house, like maria said, then I definetively juggle a LOT more than i walk...
Any walking counts as "human upright walk", no matter where, while what (even while juggling). Just "time walked" versus "time juggled without walking". One-two steps don't count as really "walking upright" (and it's seconds only anyway), but time of indeed really (clearly) "walking while juggling" counts as +-0, and "walking through the house" is "walking" through the house and counts as such. - Anyway - if one's answer should depend on such distinctions and it's not clear, then please choose "3. Not sure." (unclear, not definitely or positively rather "yes", not definitely or with clear tendency towards rather "no")
According to fatbit I walk more than 15k steps every day (which is around 10Km apparently)
There’s no way I juggle that much!
This competition has now ended with 12 votes cast. The results are:
What is normal progress for beginner juggler?
How long it takes to reach and what it means "stable cascade"? What about other tricks?
well... i guess it deppends on many factors...
mainly, the time and effort one puts on it, right?
another factor is your body and mind, i mean, it is clear to me that each one of us can be good at some things, not so much at others. for example your body and mind could be more capable for juggling than rock-climbing.
the point is to find something you like doing, and just keep doing it until you get it.
the time it takes you, only you can tell. there is no "normal" people, we're all different.
also the context, are you juggling alone? is somebody teaching you?
for example it took me a few years (teaching myself, not doing it everyday, or even everyweek) to master 4 balls, but my wife got it in like a month with my help... i don't think that means she's better that me... each one of us is walking his path.
so i guess my advice is allways compare yourself to yourself, never to others.
enjoy the progress, don't get anxious to get to the goal.
it's a brave thing you're doing. starting with this world at 67 y.o., so my respects to you!
ah, and i guess 60 catches could qualify as stable, right?
but it's endless... i mean, after getting the 60, you will want to make 100, and so on...
Juggling is a journey, not a destination. Nothing wrong with enjoying the scenery!
"Stable", I'd say, for a pattern is when the pattern is well-timed (right handmovements in time, comfortable tact) and well-spaced (comfortable equal spaces between all balls, good geometry), well-aligned (no great spread, balls follow one another well, follow their flightlines well).
You can get a "stable cascade" sometimes, but still not always, still doing tensed and with arms rowing a lot (e.g. when doing a nice, but too big huge pattern), and still getting drops and fails also a lot. So, getting a "stable pattern" isn't yet the best you can get.
"Stable juggling", I'd say, means you get stable patterns a lot and have less to no drops; I guess, it also then means more control.
Other words (and notions) to describe how well a pattern (itself) runs or how the ado of juggling it goes (judging also posture, hand- and bodymovement), are "kept up [for #n rounds or catches]", "fluent", "flowy", "floaty", "snapped-in", "running", "rolling", (whatever these might distinctly mean) .. maybe "poised" (but that sounds point-of-view, like "nice" or "superb" or so), .. then, rather unprecise, I find, expressions like "getting it down" or "owning" a pattern; maybe these can mean, you can show the pattern anytime a few rounds, or else it could mean, you can do it in your sleep.
Higher levels, I'd say, would be when it is not a challenge anymore to do without drops, when hands seem to ``do all by themselves´´, when you're getting better at correcting outbreakers back to pattern (easily) with fast precise correction throws, or even when you can bail out a completely rotten pattern back to stable. When you can move, sit down, bend, turn, jogg with the pattern, do it on bycicle. When it's well in rhythm, when the whole ado (You + balls + your handmovement + the whole pattern + your brainwork + your automatisms + your mindset) feels like One.
I like (to go for) control over the pattern, full control.
How long it takes to learn depends on how much you stay aware that there's always more to still learn that you know nothing about yet, thus not getting stuck on a level where you think you got it, but don't get any better and don't understand why.
Always reckon for the unknown.
Other tricks give a compare to how juggling is more than getting the cascade down - they define the cascade and its skills as what it is among what else there also is.
Now Available - Alexander Kiss book "If you are a juggler"
Niels Duinker has just released this on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1979653402/ - hopefully the ordering process will be a little easier than it was for "Juggling, The Past, and Future"
The description on amazon reads:
Alexander Kiss wrote, "If You are a Juggler" in the USSR in 1970. Now that it finally has been translated into English, we can all learn from this Russian circus icon and master juggler. In 1969 Alexander won the Rastelli Award, given to the top juggler in the world. In this book, Alexander Kiss shares his life's work while also offering insights to jugglers and other performers alike. From stories of juggling greats to descriptions of their famed tricks, this is a collection of valuable information to all who read it. Learn Alexander's thoughts about proper practice technique, how to structure an act, correct body position, originality, developing new tricks, prop decoration, and much more.
I'm very much looking forward to my copy turning up...
eJuggle (http://www.juggle.org/ejuggle/) will have a review soon. I'll try to remember to post a link here when it comes out.
Hi there! been a while since i last posted here...
but i'm still training ;)
today i wanted to ask you about a wish i had for some time now.
i want to start a juggling club. how do i begin? how does it work?
i now it must be kind of a stupid question for many of you...
but i've never been in a juggling club.. there's no such thing in argentina.
only a few circus schools that opened these last years.
I even live in a small town called Lago Puelo, in patagonia, so not many cultural things available.
I love juggling. it made my life so much better. and i love teaching (i am a music teacher for kids).
so i want to create a place where old & new jugglers can meet, learn, exchange ideas, play together...
i was hoping you can give me some guidelines to how to kick-start it.
one good thing is that i actually know a few jugglers around here... so i can invite them to begin with...
My plan is usually:
- Find somewhere to juggle
- Find a time to that place is available every week
- Tell as many jugglers as you know (adding it to http://jugglingedge.com/clublistings.php and using facebook/instagram/etc to get the word out helps)
- Turn up at that time, every week, without fail.
That's all you really need to get a juggling club started.
Everything else (beginners workshops, teaching, social meetups etc) is an added bonus, but at its most basic, you need to be in the same place at the same time, predictably, reliably, week after week.
An initial publicity stunt or some other form of marketing also helps.
When starting Spalding juggling club (which folded when we left) an hour of club passing at the local market proved enough advertising to get sufficient numbers to pay for the hall.
When starting Concrete Circus a few assemblies in local schools helped.
Since you know a few jugglers around, perhaps not just invite them, but involve them! See if they are as excited about starting a club as you are.
For newcomers it's much easier to join a group than to join an individual, unless you want to set up a workshop rather than a typical juggling meeting club.
thanks! lots of usefull data!
i'm going to give it a try these days, or weeks... and will let you know!
You need a space and some jugglers. That's about it. If you want it to last I'd add:
- turn up on time or a bit early so it's open when people arrive
- make sure it happens regularly - if not then make sure you tell people when it's closed
- make sure you take some time out of your own practice to welcome new people and teach others (ask some of the other regulars to help you with this)
- keep feeding in new people - advertise (online is cheap/free), print some cards or flyers that you *always* have with you, juggle at student events, juggle in parks, juggle everywhere
- if it costs money make sure you plan to run it at a profit - you can always use this profit to buy stuff for everyone to use, put on shows etc. but don't plan to 'just break even' (you won't).
The classic mistake with juggling clubs is not finding & encouraging new people, which leads to the attendance shrinking, the same people running it (and becoming weary of doing so), less money to pay for venues etc. and eventual closure.
"if it costs money make sure you plan to run it at a profit" oh god this.
You don't have to aim for a big profit, but you should aim for a profit. If you're running at break-even and you have a few weeks where attendance is down, you'll end up funding the shortfall yourself. If you're running at a profit you've got a buffer to use on those quiet weeks.
you know the expression "two horse town"? well, in the town where i live you actually see people riding horses, or a pair of oxes pulling a cart... so.. yeah, not sure it could happend.
I did try to open a paid workshop, a few years ago, it started fine, but in mid-winter fell apart...
so, i guess it is a "non-profit" :) thanks anyway, some usefull data too.
also, do we need to get some kind of ensurence? or leave under-age people out of it?
how do you people deal with that?
again, thanks everybody for the advice, it's beeing really usefull.
Teaching passing to good solo jugglers
Had fun last night teaching passing to a club member who had a reasonable 5b cascade, some 6b, and a dash of 7b under his belt. Figured I'd play to his strengths and start with 7b ultimates (him passing crosses, of course). That went well, so we went to 9b ultimates, and eked out a qualify!
On a related note: the beginning of our club's hardcore recruitment and retention efforts have begun, and yielded fantastic results so far. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out in the next few months.
How does this recruitment look like? We would also like to have more permanent members in our University juggling club. Do you already use the sheet of juggling achivements?
Yes, I made a sheet of juggling achievements, and I'll share two versions here:
This one, which I think is a slightly better achievement ladder: https://www.dropbox.com/s/unymmzrh84fgluz/Juggling%20Grades%20Balls.docx?dl=0
And this one, which is better for recruitment:
Another thing that's been working well is having a blanket with props on it and a sign saying, "Want to learn? Take three and come talk to us!". We're hoping to further decrease the barrier to entry by having designated beginner-teachers who wear sashes.
Last night at our AGM, we made an executive position called Recruitment and Retention, for which I will be the pioneering officer. Looking forward to seeing what I can do.
Thanks for sharing.
I have already seen the first sheet on reddit. Now, you have made some modifications and included multiplex and performing. That sounds good ;-) Carry (one-beat factory) was removed and inverted box is on grade 9. For me the inverted boy is still a challenge although I can do N-box, shuffle, ...
The second one seems to be a good start for newcomers. Including passing is also nice.
Offering different props is also good. In our club for instance nearly no one juggles rings.
At our university courses start typically in October and April. On average there are about 10 newcomers. Some of them just want do try something new and some of them could already juggle. Most of the newcomers did not continue longer than half a year. After half a year they can juggle 3 balls and can do a few tricks (grade 4 in your beginer sheet). Those who stay longer can typically juggle 4-5 balls, 3-4 clubs, and pass 6 clubs (about grade 7 in advanced sheet).
'Pioneering officer' sounds good. Would like to hear more about your recruitment experience in the future.
Back when I was running a university club (around 20 years ago) we found that we had better retention when we emphasised the social aspects of the club.
The weekly juggling meetings were just the start - we always finished the meetings by going to the pub, organised pizza nights. When the weather was nice, extra juggling meetings outside, if there was a circus in town we organised a group booking etc.
We took a group minibus to every juggling convention we could find, and organised trips to visit other juggling clubs in nearby cities.
"Juggling for the sake of juggling" can easily become a solo pursuit, and as humans are fundamentally a social animal, that will only hold the attention of some people for longer than a few weeks... but if you can include the "person" as well as the "skill" you'll find a larger group of people stick around.
I'd like to build in more social aspects to the club but am struggling with it a bit. One social thing we do well is fests: we had about 10 people make the >10 hour drive to Turbofest this year!
For gettogethers, we'd probably have to put them on weekends because our practices go from 6-~8:30 pm. Many people find it hard to get there earlier and (by my eye) tend to want to leave and get last-minute assignments done when it ends. An organized pizza night sounds fun, I'll have to jump through some paperwork hoops but I think it'd be worth it.
6pm - 8:30 pm is a pretty normal timeframe for weekday evening juggling clubs.
We always used to go straight from the practice session to the nearest bar, anyone who had a last minute assignment could duck out at that point and go do their homework, but there would usually be a few who would stick around for an hour or two. I know a lot of clubs in the UK run on this model, meet, juggle, eat/drink/chat.
All you need to do is say "next week, I'm thinking of going to the bar/cafe/burger joint for a drink after the session. Anyone who wants to come is welcome!" and then follow through on it. If you can manage to do that a few weeks in a row, those who want to hang around can do so.
I guess we were in a pretty lucky position being in Birmingham (UK) in the late 1990s, there were 3 other juggling clubs in the same city and another 3 or 4 within about a 40min drive. We used to pile as many people as we could fit into a car and go visit other clubs nearby. On a couple of occasions we planned it a bit more thoroughly and took a minibus.
In one of it's more popular periods, the University of Bristol juggling society met on a Sunday afternoon, finished around 7pm and then decamped to an open mic comedy night in a bar that was about 15 minutes walk away. We'd hang around there drinking, chatting, laughing at the comedians. It wasn't unusual to get 20 of us along to the comedy. Then a comedy night opened up at another venue on a Tuesday evening and we started going to that as well (even though there was no juggling on a Tuesday)
It's things like that which can bring a group of people together and help them make friends, they'll keep coming back for those friendships even if they're struggling to make progress with the juggling.
The Bristol Uni Society also used to organise a juggling convention to take place early in the second term - so the first term was spent getting people interested in juggling, involving them socially, and getting them involved in organising the juggling convention. By the time the second term came around, they were in deep and couldn't escape ;)
Attending together a convention is indeed a social aspect. We did this for the EJC in Almere in 2016.
A 10 hour drive is really long. Looking at the event page here, I could reach in principal in 2018 more than 20 conventions in less than 10 hours from my hometown. Unfortunately, two of the yearly small conventions nearby (<30 km) took place last year for the last time.
Another social aspect is practicing together for a performance. From time to time we have this opportunity at some events in the university.
The 10 hour thing was me bragging about how dedicated these people are! Didn't mean to imply that it was the nearest fest or anything.
The closest fests for us are:
Guelph fest - 0 min away =D
Waterloo fest - ~40 min away
RIT - ~3.5 hours
Limestone - ~4 hours
Montreal - ~ 7 hours
And then there are a bunch of ~7 in assorted places in the States.
We certainly don't have half of the fest density as many places in Europe, but as far as Canada goes, we're almost ideally located!
What ever happened to ... ?
So, I found myself thinking about Jouni Temonen, a fabulous juggler from Finland who I met maybe a dozen or so years ago, and he's one of those really great jugglers who seems to have dropped completely off the radar. And I started wondering whether it's because he's doing better, more professional things, or perhaps he's got a proper job/life/baby or whatever and doesn't really inhabit the juggling world so much any more.
And then that got me thinking about Joost Dessing, and wondering what on earth he's up to now. And the more you think about it, the more gifted talents you will remember that seem to have disappeared off the scene for one reason or another.
So who do you recall, who was infuriatingly talented but has since moved on with their lives?
Maybe Michael Falkov. One of the best 3b jugglers ever (IMO, top 3, arguably the very top), but is super off-grid. Not sure if he's juggled in the last ~2 years.
Reuben Cohn-Gordon, Arron Gregg & Anthony Gatto (obviously!) are the names who immediately spring to my mind.
Similarly, is it my imagination or is the 'lifetime' of a juggler getting shorter? For example I feel that the more recent BYJotY competitors have not remained as visible in the scene as the earlier competitors (Norbi, Tiff, Tom Derrick, Arron Sparks, Jon Udry, Matt Pang etc.). Has the increased average skill level & easier access to the 'next big thing' made staying in the community's consciousness harder? Has the top level of juggling reached the point where physical limits are being hit & injury is forcing people out sooner?
Oof, I definitely miss Reuben Cohn-Gordon. I had a brief chat with him May 2014 when I was getting into squeeze catches. At that point he implied that he was still juggling some. Maybe there's hope.
It's an interesting point about youngins not staying on the scene as long these days. I got curious about IJA juniors winners...and I wish I knew if more of them still juggled. Below are some of the winners and whether or not they still juggle (to my knowledge)
Komei Aoki - Yes
Takashi Kikyo - Yes
Tony Pezzo - YES
Billy Watson - ?
Nate Martin - ?
Teruki Okamoto - I think so
Ben Hestness - ?
David Ferman - ?
Jack Levy - ?
Noah Malone - Yes
David Ferman - ?
Lauge Benjaminsen - Yes
David Ferman - ?
Jack Denger - ? (stopped making videos)
Patrick Fraser - Pretty much stopped
Kellin Quinn - YES
Jack Denger - ?
Ashley Ellis - ?
Ashley Ellis - ?
It seems to me that the number of people entering BYJOTY has reduced and that the average skill level is also less. Whether this is because the people attending BJC are getting older (and hence less youngsters are around to compete) or the general skill level is higher and so the good youngsters don't stand out so much or some other reason I couldn't say. Still at least a few of the recent winners are still very much on the scene and in the community consciousness. It was only about 4 years ago that Arthur Hyam won.
As well as other things in life getting in the way, one thing I've noticed based mainly on myself and is that as you get older you tend to seek praise from others less. This is why we make juggling videos of ourselves. As I get older I'm juggling just as much but making far fewer videos. People therefore think I've stopped juggling. I was recently asked to film a section for a video about people who've stopped juggling!
What Joost is up to is very easy to find [he is based in Queen's in Belfast]. His research seems to have veered towards football rather than juggling (probably related to sources of funding).
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