Viewing all threads involving Little Paul
The future of juggling
Juggling will be more popular. - It's not as exhausting as jogging or workout studio and also burns fat in a fun way. It will then also naturally be a topic in sciences and in the media.
There will be a glossary.
There will be more holsters and helps of various kinds.
There will be lots 'a minicopter juggling and a humanoid juggling robot.
There will be world-rankings and distinct proficiency / difficulty-levels, dans or alike.
Rackets will be used.
Many-ball-patterns will be rolled on big inclined planes and there will be more helium prop juggling.
Chinese Circus will (re-)discover toss-juggling.
.. maybe, I could imagine.
Yeh, some of it has been done before or exists already, but isn't as common as it will be and not yet as popular as playing frisbee.
History repeating. I'm looking forward to the 20s, they'll be the next 90s, just as the 90s were the next 60s. History repeating.
Hm .. siteswap and stickmen weren't there before, though. Some, maybe a lot of old, ancient skills and fashions might have gone lost, but juggling has overall grown in complexity and I wish it furtheron will. I think it deserves it.
Internet video has contributed much to the complexity of juggling. The general image of juggling (to non-jugglers) is changing too. In the future juggling might be seen as cool and sexy. Pre-xmas perfume commercials will feature jugglers. 'Kasscade.. le new fragrance.. eau de toilette'.
The new Karl-Heinz Ziethen book "Juggling, The Past and Future" is finally available from
It's pricey but there's 30% off (until 14 September) if you use the voucher code SAVENOW30
Sounds fantastic, definitely on my wish list!
The voucher code doesn't seem to work for me..
I just got a really dissapointing email:
It has come to our attention that your order XXXXX cannot be completed because the source files for the project "Juggling, The Past and Future" contain errors preventing it from being printed.
I hope this gets sorted soon, I'm still excited!!!
I got the same email too. I let Niels know and he said that only this had happend to only 2 orders (yours and mine) but 40 have been printed. On the brightside as I ordered it as soon as it came out I only found a 10 percent discount code but now due to this I can use the 30 percent one!
I am like you super excited.........
I've just had this email back too
"It has come to our attention that your order ******** cannot be completed because the source files for the project "Juggling, The Past and Future" contain errors preventing it from being printed. We've unfortunately had no choice but to remove this item from your order, and have refunded you accordingly.
We'll also be contacting the author to make them aware of the problem, but we do apologize for any inconvenience that this may create."
I'll have another go and see what happens.
It's taken until this morning for the refund to hit my account, so I'll try again today - you might not want to try again too quickly as you may end up temporarily shorter on funds than you expect!
I tried again and got the exact same thing happen again so i'd hold off for a while. There seems to be a problem with the uk printers from what Niels was saying when I contacted him.
I also got the same message, so its definitely being consistent with those based in the UK.
Now won't get to apply that lovely 30% discount.
Yes it is, I got a message from Niels today and he has made a UK version, here's the link:
He said that its been made to the spec for the UK printers so orders should be ok now.
Regarding the discount, I asked Lulu direct about that and they said:
It depends entirely on the promotions being advertised on the homepage of our website, as they periodically change. When you have a moment, visit our homepage at http://www.lulu.com/home to review the promotions currently available.
At the moment, "SAVENOW30" is still ongoing, but it is scheduled to end at midnight tonight (EST).
If you'd like to use the voucher, be sure to have an order in production before the promotion ends - otherwise you may have to wait until another offer of equal value is advertised".
As much as I want to order the book right away I'm gonna wait until there a good discount code as I've tasted the discount nectar and it was good!
It does work if I open the UK version of Lulu, on the Dutch one it does not!
Awesome! I got the notification a couple of days ago but was waiting for a voucher to turn up! :)
Remarkable. Having had "time out" I return to the Edge with 12670 unread posts, and K-HZ's book appears with a voucher. I'm a very happy person! Thank you everyone for posting.
Has anyone read it? What kind of things does he see the future of juggling being?
Balancing and juggling (and juggling and balancing)
I wrote up a little tutorial on learning to juggle with a balance (or... is it learning to balance with a juggle?..!)
Thought some of you might get a kick out of it! Curious to hear if my experiences are parallel with any of your own.
That was an excellent read, thank you. Please show it to /r/juggling as well if you haven't already.
I found myself both agreeing and disagreeing with so much of it. But that's a reflection of my understanding of the trick, which has changed considerably over time. I used to think that it should be regarded as a single trick rather than a combination of two, but I eventually realised that it's better if you let the balance come first. I'm still not sure it isn't actually a single trick, but nowadays I very much agree with the importance of focusing on the balance.
But since I learned the trick before I learned to focus completely on the balance it seems evident that one can divide one's attention somewhat, and still succeed. It's hard to remember but I think back then I tried not to look at any one thing at all, just see the whole picture.
Thanks, Cedric! Just posted it over on Reddit. (Feel free to give an upvote! ha!)
I'm still not sure it's a single trick, either, haha. I think that three with a balance is certainly "canon" enough that can stand on its own as a trick, but find that learning different tricks while maintaining the balance makes that perspective lacking... (would you agree?)
Your comment about dividing attention definitely corresponds with my experience with headbounce... if you focus on any one thing too much, it all falls apart. You've got to see the whole thing all at once!
Just got around to reading it, and I think that you've covered everything I either picked up from other people or intuitively tried in the "conscious incompetence" phase.
I like the way you've written it up and illustrated it though - and I think you actually managed to describe why I've never found the forehead balance as comfortable as everyone seems to have told me it is - it's because I have to flip my perception.
You might even have inspired me to have another crack at getting it solid.
Awesome! I'm really excited that there wasn't much new info in there for you, actually... Doing my best to be comprehensive with these posts, and if I've covered everything that's occurred to you, I must be doing something right!
Good stuff. When learning the Bungay trick, I remembered Haggis McLeod's exhortation from his Club Juggling instructional video: DON'T DROP THE BALANCE. (Which pretty much summarises your article in a sentence.) It's really hard to keep doing that when you're first trying to add some throws under the balance, but it pays dividends in the end.
I never did work hard enough on just a club balance with a cascade. Maybe I should try again....
I think I made a VHS rip of it and still have it on my PC somewhere, but I didn't put it online because oddballs were selling it on DVD at the time.
It makes for wonderful "omg the hair! The clothes! The sheer bloody 1990s of it all"
Good stuff, Thom. A few thoughts:
I think I remember hearing that Gatto recommended the forehead balance since it gives the audience a better view of your face. That insight is presumably from Nick, actually. So, forehead might be better for performer-types.
The Reading Test is my favorite drill before you put it all together. Work on it a lot after your balance is solid and before you work on adding the juggling. Try to get your head back as far as you can, even looking up somewhat behind straight up so you rely on minimal peripheral vision of the clubs.
Placing into a Balance - the trick here is to catch the club you're going to put into a balance up high and as close to the balance point as possible so there's not a lot of movement (and time) to get it into the balance. Watch people doing constant balances on one side and you'll see very high catches and minimal movement to actually put the clubs into the balance/roll).
One thing you didn't mention is clubs vs balls. Learning with 3 clubs is much easier than with 3 balls since you will see the clubs easier with your peripheral vision than balls which are generally thrown lower (throwing them high enough for suitable juggling with a balance is an unnatural slow rhythm). 4 balls is similarish height to 3 clubs so a reasonable start for those who prefer sphericals. I think it was "The Complete Juggler" that suggested that even numbers might actually be easier for juggling with a balance.
I'm guessing that even numbers would only be easier for the nose or chin balance since the club would obscure the crossing point of the cascade.
Funny that you say up high when referring to what I would call the bottom of the handle. Perhaps your mental model of a club is the other way round to mine. The disadvantage of catching near the knob for placing into a balance is that it's harder to get it to the right angle, but you're right that it can be quicker and easier to position it accurately.
By "up high" I meant with your arm raised up high, right near your forehead. Another thing about this is that the throw should be one and a quarter spin so instead of catching the club perpendicular to your body line like normal, you catching it more vertically, oriented and ready for quick placement on your face.
Real or fake?
I'm currently using this pic as my avatar on a history/politics forum, is it real or fake? Looks real and bloody dangerous to me.Anyone seen it before?
It's an act I've seen described many times, although how real the photo is im not sure (it rather depends on the date of the photo) and I don't see any reason to think people didn't juggle rifles in real life.
Mocking up photos of jugglers by suspending props on strings was common practice in the earlier days of photography, when film was slow and capturing motion was difficult (i.e. If the exposure time was longer than 1/100th sec etc)
So - possible staged photo of a real act
If real I bet that sword gets in the way.
Got to be a really heavy, poorly balanced and dangerous object to juggle especially with bayonets fixed. Also I bet someone shouted ''can you do 4?''
Makes sense, keep the sharp pointy bits away from you. I was imagining them spinning around. Duh
OMG, are you missing the IJA 70th Annual Festival that started this week? Well, you can read all about it on eJuggle with updates daily: http://www.juggle.org/ejuggle
Finally read through these and enjoyed them (especially the silly snippits) very much. "Only at a juggling festival can you get hit in the head with a flying object someone else has thrown, apologize for getting in the way and actually mean it."
I remember at the EJC in Carvin 2004 my friend Dave & I attended a takeout workshop. One of the moves involved clawing a club out of the pattern from above, swinging it behind you at arms length in a full circle to place back in the pattern from above. I on't know where he came from but at precisely the wrong moment a chap appeared from nowhere & took one of Dave's wild swings to the face. This was followed by a competition to see who could apologise the most.
I disagreed immediately. I mean, why would such a smart fellow choose to film in portrait?
— The Void (@TheVoidTLMB) July 14, 2017
I agreed with the preamble, but it got problematic when the actual definition started. But is such a long definition useful?
I followed a little of the Facebook discussion about how this definition had been whittled down to mere pages (or was it reams?). I'll have a look at that if it appears but I don't consider a 15 minute video to be information, especially one which didn't seem to yield a point when I skimmed through it
Barnesy, here you go:
Juggling is a genre of activities related to the default form. The default form is the three ball cascade.
How far does the border have to be from the 3b cascade before it becomes 'not juggling'?
It's not about distance. It is an on or off switch. Is there a relevant relation or not? Is there another genre that has a stronger connection to the subject than 3 ball cascade, or other established forms of juggling?
One thing to always remember, is that we are dealing with communication and the meaning of a word here. For an example, if I walk into a pizza place with another juggler and the pizza chef is throwing the dough around, I could easily start talking to my juggling friend about the pizza tricks as juggling, and he would know immediately what I was saying. If the person I was talking to was a non-juggler, it might be harder, since it is not as certain that he would see a connection to other already established forms of juggling.
Perhaps dance is the default form? I think there's an 'outside' and 'inside' of what juggling is. The inside is - feeling a motion.. a dance. The feeling is the same as dancing, you're using an object/s (balls, poi, pizza etc) to feel the dance instead of your body. Skateboarding is using your body and an object to feel it. The playing of a musical instrument isn't related because of the lack of motion.. you're feeling rhythms & melodies.. but not motion. Does that make any sense? Not sure myself.
Juggling is a genre of activities related to the default form. The default form is the three ball cascade.
"Juggling a three ball cascade" is already juggling - can it then serve for defining juggling? (Howto define "juggling" in "juggling a three ball cascade"? .. to me, that's circular, tautologic, self-redundant reasoning)
Far TL; Can't be bothered to W - but:
Is a definition even useful?
Definitions usually only serve so you can point at things which don't fit the definition and exclude them. Something I haven't been interested in doing with "juggling" for a while
I like the idea of exploring the boundaries of a concept, as it lets you find areas that haven't been explored yet. However, defining what the word juggling means is a different exercise of defining what "juggling is", or can be. Completing the first step is probably useful before beginning the second step.
However, if I'm to watch a long video, it has to be more interesting than that in the first minute for me to continue on with it.
Luke, if you want to claim that the word juggling represents something different than "what juggling is" you will have to explain that difference. The word juggling is only a representative for a concept. I does not matter if you try to leave the area of language and the meaning of words, when you still use language and words. Using words in communication confines you to their meanings, unless you explain how they would differ.
We use the word juggling, and we mean something when we do. Therefore, I did not make a definition. Its already there, I have no say in the matter. I can only describe what the word means already.
Q: Is a definition even useful?
A: Yes, because when we understand deeper what it is that we are doing, we can reach further, and be more effective. We can communicate better. Removing confusion is both pleasant and aesthetical.
"Definitions usually only serve so you can point at things which don't fit the definition and exclude them."
For sure you can come up with more uses to understanding language and the meaning of words, than that one.
Void, I was rushed and time was limited. The purpose of the video is to reveal the general thoughts. I am not great at explaining, and I am afraid those who wants to understand might have to get involved in the discussion. What is unclear? please tell me, and I will do my best to explain. Not only has the definition of juggling been an area of much disagreement, it also seems as the approach to it differs greatly, from person to person.
For those who find this video too long to be palatable, start here:
And here is a summary of the definition, which may or may not make sense unless you watch the whole thing.
"Juggling is a genre of activities which are related to the default form. The default form of juggling is the 3 ball cascade."
Topic of discussion: is the default form really the 3 ball cascade?
I am now tempted to watch the whole thing because that is not something I'd expect from Erik. There must be a lot more to it than that.
I always use the definition: "Doing what doesn't need to be done in the most difficult way possible."
I've tried to find the source of this definition a few times. Earliest reference I can find is from Jerry Carson in 2001, which is almost certainly where I picked it up from originally. However, Jerry's message suggests it comes from further back.
Wouldn't that definition include many other activities such as skateboarding, rock climbing and base jumping?
If someone is interested to read more about the definition of juggling, there is some discussion about it in this thread:
That link didn't work for me but http://objectepisodes.com/t/the-definition-of-juggling/18/2 does.
The Kingston Jugglers have, "Doing the unnecessary the hard way" on their t-shirts and they've been around a while. Greg Phillips would probably know when they started using it.
Slightly different wording from 1993: http://dev.juggle.org/history/archives/jugmags/45-3/45-3,p28.htm 2nd paragraph.
Longtime friends David Cain and Jay Gilligan won the Fargo Intermediate and Juniors Championships
David, are you younger than I think, or is that sentence missing a 'respectively'!
Why is it important to define juggling? Is it just so you can deny it includes poi?
My version (depending on the context - like "among jugglers", but not apt for Wikipedia) would be sth like:
" Juggling is the rhythmic displacement* of objects in a way that allows to do sth else during that displacement ongoing. This is achieved by aiming the object, thus controlling where it will land, with no need to track it. The skill of juggling lies in using that time for doing more displacements of the same kind or sth completely different in a rhythm. This in turn ("using that time") is achieved by synchronizing the body's movements with the pattern (or: "trajectories") juggled (and vice versa, by adapting, tuning, synchronizing the pattern to fit optimal body motion). "
The borders to other kinds of object manipulation transition smoothly. Object manipulations, that are not juggling, include e.g. cutting a slice of bread or sausage or drinking a cup of .. erhh .. revitalizing hot beverage, or moving your whole household to another town with two or more cars than you have helps (then called "logistics").
* displacement - also e.g. rolling
______________ ________________ _____________ _____________ _______________
Thoughts that brought me there:
Maybe it makes sense to include the juggler in a definition of juggling. I mean, the props don't juggle by themselves - it looks so mechanical, so high-tec, when a robot juggles, while, in turn when a human juggles like a robot, it's an artsy illusion, sth haunting, mesmerizing, a different feel, an uncommon onsight. So the (human, or be it then a robot) juggler is a necessary part of the whole setup of "juggling". Juggling is then the juggler moving right in rhythm with the props and the pattern, as a whole. It would distinguish "juggling" from "juggling pattern" or from "juggling (default) form" or alike, as a result of juggling, but not the whole of "someone juggling". Can juggling exist without being actually done by someone? Else "(the) juggling" and "doing juggling" would be two different things, which in reality, practically, they are not.
Or else - let then juggling be the result of what jugglers do, just like there's dance even when no one is actually dancing it -, a definition should then still include how and why this result is achieved. We'd then get: "Juggling is a juggler juggling the three ball cascade."
Or at least include some physical stuff: "one object in the air" .. what does that mean? - It's timing, time gained by throw height (or roll distance), time to do sth else before catching it again, it's rhythm, tact, (music?), and the juggler needs to account for all that by moving in ways allowing for it to happen: posture, technique, pattern an' all.
Tendonitis solutions? So having moved to a house with a high ceiling, the inevitable has happened. I've over done the numbers juggling and now have elbow pain in my right arm (inner elbow). Especially bad since the BJC. I've not work on anything over 7 balls since the BJC. Lately I've not been doing much juggling at all but it doesn't seem to be getting better. I've not seen anyone about it yet, but thinking I probably should. Would a GP actually be of any use for this? Are my numbers juggling days over?
I went to my GP when I was in need of physiotherapy (and still in the UK). I didn't have high hopes. But she took the problem seriously and referred me to a physiotherapist without fuss.
That's my anecdata, and unrelated to your problem, but I'd definitely seek help. I think perhaps you can refer yourself too, but I don't know how that works in the UK. Maybe Alby will be along soon...
Of course I've just mentioned physiotherapy and I don't know what a proper treatment might be in this case, but yeah: Go ask.
Thanks. I'm not sure what your physiotherapy was relating to. One of the problems I foresee is that my issue is not debilitating at all for normal everyday activities. It's a sports injury that only hinders my juggling. That's why I'd be concerned that a GP would not take it seriously or would simply tell me to stop. Probably means that I'm unlikely to get any help on the NHS.
Well that's why I was surprised. I was suffering from shoulder problems caused by bad posture and made worse by bad juggling form. My worries were similar to yours but turned out to be unfounded. Your mileage may vary etc.
OK, but did it cause problems with other tasks? The last few days I was moving furniture around, removing doors and carrying them around with no problems. Then I did a bit of 5 clubs and 7 balls and got pain afterwards and the next day.
Yes, it was causing occasional problems with general movement. But my GP, who I saw when the problem wasnt causing pain, wanted to refer me because I had said it was keeping me from juggling. Of course I went in there talking about sometimes not being able to stand up, but then the conversation moved into talk of my doubts about wanting to talk to a Dr about juggling.
And yeah, I waited months for an NHS physio. Was pleased with the treatment I got in the end.
Hi. I'm sure I'll add to this later but if GP doesn't take it seriously then ask them directly for physio referral. Round my way people are self referring to NHS physio. There's a wait but you'd still get seen. Failing that get an appt at a sports physio - local costs here are between £35 and £50 for an initial assessment. Quicker and easier and no Dr referral needed.
Thanks. I think a sports physio is the way to go. Sounds like it could get expensive though.
I don't know how these things work in the UK, but I indeed never get any good advice from "normal" doctors and physio therapists. They tell me to stop, or they tell me it's not a big deal, even though it's my job to perform.
For anything I'll go to my sports physiotherapist, which is the one every circus artist goes to in Rotterdam. He has so many clients from the circus school that I always meet friends when I'm there... But any sports physio might be able to take your request seriously?
That sucks so bad :( I find it strange you got it in the elbow- all other jugglers I know incuding myself have only ever got it in the wrist. My only real suggestion is to perhaps find the lightest versions of all the props you can get- for instance I know of several people who never got problems again after switching to Norwiks.
I think the damage was done with 11 ball training. It's the speed and sudden change in direction of the upper arm, not the weight of the props.
Oh ok that makes sense... I don't practice numbers because I find they are very straining. Maybe let it recover and the only work on 5-7 ball patterns?
Yes you can go to your GP about this ( speaking as one), worth asking about physio first, if your GP has this( quite new cross the country) you may be able to book in directly.
It sounds like you may have golfers' elbow, (without seeing you.) if so there are good excerises on The Summit Medical Group website
Thanks. The web page looks useful. If it helps diagnosis, pain usually happens when I face my palm upwards and tense my bicep.
Peter, what is it going to cost you to see a GP in person?
So what have you got to lose by trying. Give the NHS a chance, you live in a first world country with a health service that is free at the point of use - so why are you messing about with text based remote diagnosis over the internet?
I wouldn't rely on text based diagnosis exclusively. I've already contacted an NHS physio as I said. My local GP is very busy and I don't want to take up their time if I can go straight to a physio. Normally if I want to see the GP I call as soon as the phone lines open, wait 10 minutes to reach the front of the queue and then get told that there are no appointments left for today and to try again tomorrow, unless it's a serious problem, which this isn't. It may take several weeks to get to see a physio, so any exercises that may help in the meantime are helpful.
Anyone going to the Sheffield Circus Skills Convention on Saturday will possibly hear the first bit of BJC 2018 news.
First person to report their findings back here will win 10 BJC points1
1 BJC points are not redeemable for anything but they are still quite nice to collect.
Today is World Juggling/Apathy Day.
Therefore I urge you to do do something/nothing.
Thanks for reminding me, I need to turn my heap.
Not a job I enjoy, but it does need doing!
Is it okay to turn some soil in the fields if you don't own a compost heap? I mean, it's the gesture that counts, isn't it?
Well, I'm headed towards running no-dig in my garden, which would make the answer "no"
Has it been a good experience so far? I'm thinking about making my allotment no-dig - I started in 2014 and still haven't quite finalised the layout though, so maybe one or two more beds to be deep dug first.
Well I haven't done double-digging in about 10 years, the most I've done has been forking the beds over to break up the compaction and get the larger weeds out.
Last year however I had a crap year and basically just let everything go, then at the end of last summer I blitzed the lot with a fork and weeded the lot - then immediately dumped a load of compost/manure on it. This spring, I weeded it by hand again, but didn't fork it over. The soil already feels like it's got a better texture, and a light hoeing every-so-often seems to be enough to keep down what little weeds are coming up.
So I think I'll do the same again with the muck at the end of the season this year, then re-mulch in the spring and see where it goes from there (then expand the same plan to the borders)
My veg patch has had an established layout to it for over a decade, so I didn't have to build any new beds - but it's really nice not having to spend 3 days forking it over.
Thanks, that was interesting. The allotment plot had been out of use for some years so there were lots of brambles, docks, oriental poppies for some reason... sadly I was not allowed to use the cleansing power of fire, just a sickle, fork and spade. It's doing well now, it's a lovely south-east slightly sloping site with no frost pockets and warms up early for Yorkshire, but the soil condition can certainly be improved.
Have you read the Sellars & Yeatman book "Garden Rubbish"? It's got a good bit on double digging...
Hello I'm new here, please love and welcome me!
I'm almost a beginner at juggling but am earnestly practising to overcome that identity ;)
I like chocolate.
I'm looking forward to becoming a part of your community here, you seem like a nice enough lot of folks.
I'm rather partial to lindt lindor truffles at the moment, which isn't a particularly cheap habit.
Can't get enough of Vego Hazelnut vegan chocolate bar myself, also not very cheap.
I'm not one for chocolate milk I'm afraid. I feel it ruins the chocolate, and the milk.
Conscious Chocolate make the very best organic raw handmade expensive chocolate. and also I like Terry's. and also Lindt 90% dark chocolate, and mini eggs, and Cadbury's Dairy Milk, and Galaxy, and Galaxy caramel, and mint Matchmakers, and Crunchies! and Kinder eggs and also Toblerone.
I just love chocolate.
I also like cacao ceremonies.
Yes, I have tried the Mint Conscious Chocolate, it is very good, but indeed super expensive.
They were giving it out for free at the door to the Mind Body Spirit festival in London a few weeks ago. So obviously I made friends with the guy on the door so I could keep going back for more :D
Hi & welcome Phranchesskah! .. "seem nice enough" .. Haha! .. wait 'til you get to know us better ;o]p
Welcome to the Edge
You should come to Chocfest in January in York, we have a mini festival of juggling and chocolate.
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