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Guinness world records for juggling...
I recently heard that for (some/all?) marathon-style events, GWR permits (accumulating) breaks every hour — for example, a 5-minute break every hour. Since the 3- and 4-ball endurance world records were both awarded by GWR, I was wondering whether anyone knew whether this was also the case for the juggling records?
Call me a purist, but it seems that, as impressive as juggling for 12 hours, with only short breaks in, is — it wouldn't be fair to strictly count time after taking breaks, and it'd be nice to know if this was the case for those records. Anyone know, or have any thoughts?
I'd like to know that as well, I always wondered how a normal human being deals with basic human commodity for 12 hours while juggling!
It's been suggested that an adult diaper might be helpful. Also drinking from a straw and being fed carefully.
Once you sign up for doing an actual entry, you get an email including aaalll of the specifications and rules regarding that particular entry (if one has been set before). So I recommend pretending you're going to set something.
I've done so ages ago for a record, wasn't too complicated.
Ah, that's good advice, thank you! I just sent a general enquiry a moment ago, but if they can't give me the information, I shall do that! I'll report back here when I know more.
Their general enquiry reply was a lot of auto-generated nonsense, so I've submitted a record attempt form. Let's see where that goes...
Doesn't answer your questions, but here's an interview with the record holder that was just published: https://www.juggle.org/interview-david-slick/
From the interview: "No breaks allowed and the throwing must alternate hands."
And then in the promo video posted in the article there is a news caption:
"David Slick goes 12 hours without eating, drinking or bathroom break"
That's much more detailed than anything I managed to find previously, thanks! That seems to support a continuous 12-hour record, which is comforting! (Especially the quotes about training for a long time to be able to do that.)
By "must alternate hands", does that mean you can't set records for synchronous patterns? Or would it still be alright since both hands are used? What about siteswaps with a "0" where you end up throwing with the same hand twice?
I guess for this particular record they want you to throw a cascade, and "must alternate hands" was the way Guinness describes the cascade. Of course one can try and be creative with the rules, but first we must consult the full rule document which Varkor might receive soon.
So it’s the start of 2018 – Happy New Year jugglers!
The start of a new year is always a time to reflect on your life and where you want it to go… or to just completely ignore that and think about juggling, which is what I’ve opted to do:
So I’ve had lots of interesting conversations about how people practice juggling, when they started and how quickly they learnt certain tricks. One topic which often comes up is how Anthony Gatto practices. Obvious he’s pretty decent at juggling, so must have been doing something right when he practiced. I decided to try and emulate his practice.
DISCLAIMER: I think Anthony Gatto has a strong claim to the title of ‘best juggler of all time’ and I in no way think I will ever be anywhere near as good as him. I respect his ability immensely and if I say anything like ‘obviously he’s pretty decent at juggling’ like in the line above, I’m deliberately understating things for comic effect. Hopefully this explanation didn’t spoil that effect too much, but I would hate people to think that I don’t respect his ability or that I’m trying to compare myself to him in any way. I just want to get better at juggling, and tell a few jokes. I also don’t think I’m a particularly good solo juggler either, so any statements I make to the contrary are also jokes.
END OF DISCLAIMER.
After reading http://www.juggling.org/help/essays/gatto.html and watching some of https://youtu.be/gtsaTMdKVTM I think these are the key things I’ve learnt about how he practices:
1) Warm up with some gentle balance exercises.
2) Practice for one hour, but every day!
3) Work on each trick for no more than 2-3 minutes, take regular breaks.
4) Have a list of about 20 tricks you are working on, if you aren’t enjoying one, swap it out for another one.
I think the idea of this is you make slow progress on lots of tricks at once, and if you do this every day for 20 years you end up being the best juggler of all time or something. Sounds like a plan- anyone want to book 43 year old Cameron for a performance, he’s going to be awesome? (See disclaimer if you think I’m being arrogant…)
This is very different to how I practice. Sometimes I’m super motivated about one trick and work on just that for a whole session, sometimes I rattle through tricks more quickly. Sometimes I have seen someone do something at a convention which I want to try. Sometimes I have a new idea and want to try and come up with some tricks of my own. Sometimes I’m driving to Austria and don’t practice for a day. The point is, it varies- I don’t have a systematic juggling practice routine. I’ve got my juggling to a level I am proud of but I’m not the best of all time like Anthony… probably only like the 7th best of all time or something (see disclaimer).
I wonder how much better I would get if I started practicing like Anthony? That’s what I plan to find out over the next month or so, maybe with a few days off when I’m skiing/moving to Germany. Who knows, I’ll do it when I can though (I know this already doesn’t really fit with what he does given he did it every day but you know I’m doing my best…).
Right, so I’ll warm up with some balance stuff, cycle through tricks really quickly (I think I’ll have a timer running to keep me disciplined) now all I need is a list of 20 or so tricks:
Balance warm up:
Turn round, kneel down, stand up sit down stand up, clap behind balance, do Macarena etc with club in both nose, chin and forehead balance (2 minutes)
3 balls, 441, 4ball sync and async, 5 balls all with balance. Maybe flash 6. (5 minutes)
Ok, now I’m warm ish, maybe mills is also a good warm up for the arm? I want to work on mills anyways so let’s put some of that in:
3 balls, 441, 531 (2 minutes)
4 balls, run, then 531 throwing 5 as under arm and as over arm. Kick up 3 to 4 (3-4 minutes)
5 balls, go for runs, try kick up 4 to 5 (3-4) minutes
I really want to get 5 ball mills looking nice it’s such a cool trick, seems weird only working on it 3-4 minutes but hey, let’s give it a go.
3 balls, 3 ups including linked 3 ups and 2 stage 720s (3-4 minutes)
4 balls, 4 ups out of both hands, 2 stage 720 out of sync? (3-4 minutes)
5 balls, 3 ups starting out of both hands, try and get 2 linked (3 minutes)
5 balls, try and land a 5 up out of both hands (3 minutes)
5 balls, 3 ups out of (6x,4)* ? (3 minutes)
I wonder if I’ll find the pirouette section tiring? Maybe I’ll switch this to being at the end after I try it tomorrow. What am I on now? 33 minutes or so, wow, that’s half my practice gone! Ok better get on with it:
5 ball siteswaps:
744 (1 minute)
645 (1 minute)
633 (1 minute)
94444 (1 minute)
97531 (2 minutes)
(8x,4)(4,4) out of (6x,4)* (2 minutes)
753 (1 minute)
Man that’s another 11 minutes gone, how did Anthony make this work? All I’ve done is balls. Crazy he was efficient enough using this practice to get at least as good as I am at all three props, if not better… (disclaimer).
6 ball practice:
3 in one hand, each way (1 minute)
One handed siteswaps with 3 balls like 432 and 42 each hand (2 minutes)
66661 (1 minute)
Run 6 async (2 minutes)
Run 6 sync (2 minutes)
Transition between sync and async (2 minutes)
Kick up 5 to 6 (1 minute)
Man I’m running out of time fast:
5 ball warm up, continuous 3 ups without spinning. 771. (2 minutes)
Try and get some runs of 7 balls (3 minutes)
It seems mad only trying 7 balls for that short an amount of time- I’m used to practicing it in half an hour stretches. I wonder if this will really help me improve?
5 ball half shower, throwing the odd high throw as a back cross (2 minutes)
6 ball half shower (2 minutes)
Man, that’s over an hour! This is insane, I have some other 3 ball tricks which I would love to get solid for an act in the future, I haven’t done any contortionist stuff, I haven’t practiced any of my shower tricks. There’s so many more ball tricks I can think of I want to work on and just as many club and ring tricks… I guess I’ll have to gradually change what is in my practice over the next 20 years so that I master clubs and rings too. Oh and head bounce. Also might take up cigar boxes. Should probably do some passing at some point too… hmmm.
I’m planning on trying this tomorrow after I’ve done some tutoring, if anyone has any feedback/suggestions of things to add or take out I would love to hear it.
I’ll post an update with how I found the practice tomorrow, and maybe again after 5 days or a week or something. Will definitely post again in 20 years when I’m the best of all time (disclaimer). Hopefully if you've read this far that last disclaimer was unnecessary. Bye x
I always wonder how much this differs from his practice when he started out. This routine of his was perhaps built more to help him maintain the level he had, it could be different to the training he did when he was actively learning new skills!
So if you follow the link from the post (http://www.juggling.org/help/essays/gatto.html) it describes how he tried juggling 4 clubs for the first time. Very different from my experience of learning 4 clubs- I remember putting in lots of hours and ending up with fairly battered forearms. It seems crazy to me that anyone can learn new tricks by spending such a short amount of time on them but I guess the key is doing it every single day. I guess the fact it seems crazy is why I want to try it for myself and see if it works for me :)
Obviously I can't know for certain but as far as I can tell this really is how he learnt new tricks as well as just maintaining ones he could do already.
https://www.juggle.org/anthony-gatto-interview-on-practicing/ the last question:
eJuggle: How has your practice style changed over the years?
Gatto: It has not altered too much. I follow the same structure as I used when I was ten. What I do now more than ever is listen to my body and do not force things to happen.
I used an app called "action timer" for when I had to do a bunch of physio. Basically put in the length of time for each activity, the title and hit the go button. It will tell you what to do when (including rests). If you plan to do the same thing week in week out it might be a good way of getting consistency. I'm sure there are a whole bunch of similar apps which might fit your need if you don't like that one.
I have been using an app I created to structure my juggling training and collect juggling data. The Android app is called Routine Builder. It is available free in the Play store, and by email. Check out my training logs to see what the app can do.
Lets not forget that he also had a coach. Someone who watches closely from a different perspective and gives good feedback is invaluable. It is perhaps what allowed him to get so much out of such short sessions. The question is if the same practice structure is optimal for a juggler without a coach.
Very true, I guess what I'm really testing is whether this 2-3 minutes per trick style of practice works better for me than my normal fewer tricks for a longer amount of time style. It's definitely different from what he did in a number of ways.
A while ago I was working on consistency of patterns. I made a recording of myself saying the name of a pattern I wanted to work on, then put in silence so the total track length was 30 seconds. I think I had something like 6 different tricks, so I duplicated each track 9 times to give me a total of a half hour of audio. I made this a playlist, hit shuffle, and BAM! I practiced in a very focused way for 30 minutes.
I did make a lot of progress during this time, but probably similar progress to when I practiced for the same amount of time by myself without such a rigid structure. Hard to tell.
 - For if you're having trouble understanding what I'm talking about, the session would sound like this:
"Around the head shower, right hand" [~30 seconds of silence]
"Blind behind the head" [~30 seconds of silence]
etc. etc. for 30 minutes.
As far as I understand your routine is a random circuit training, because you 'hit shuffle'.
I think that most people train in a linear way, one trick after another for a certain amount of time in a training session. I like the idea of a circuit training and for some tricks I have made good experience with something like A-B-C-D-A-B-C-D ... or A-B-C-D-B-C-E ... after a warmup and with short breaks in between. The letters are representing different tricks. At the end of a session I have repeated some tricks 2 or 3 times. 2-10 minutes per trick works well for me.
James Rinehart. This guy's form on pirouettes is... quite something!
I skimmed around and saw pirouettes in the last 30 seconds. Did you mean those? They remind me a lot of classic female Chinese diaboloist pirouettes, with a big lean over.
I watched it again. He *is* actually spinning straight (more or less), but the bent over entry and exit somehow make it look like he's spinning bent over.
It may also be due to the stage.....the stage at the venue has a triple rake so is very slopped from the back to the front. It's quite a pain!
Hey LP, if you haven't already watched this you'll *love* the tambourine juggling section!
Did you ever - as far as you're aware, of course - dream that you toss*-juggle?
*"toss" - or fly and catch a diabolo, or run a devilstick, or foot- or knee-juggle a soccer ball, headbounces, or also scarve-juggling, .. anything where you lose physical contact to your prop. And catching, or at least the intention to catch, should be included. - So, I'd like contact-juggling, contact-staff, spinning, twirling, balancing and alike to be excluded.
I'm 7. Would love to improve over night, though. Also forgot to include the choice "Constantly, it's unnerving, I wake up from it everytime I drop." lol
I can - not while dreaming, but when awake - visualize throws (and then upto where they fly until I do the next throw to focus on, which is about to their apex), but then don't know where the balls are for catching (they sort of fade or vanish in a still life from where I last pictured them), .. so, when visualizing more rounds after launch, I have to take the catches for granted (and from seeing balls at launch before my mind's eye, I go over to instead feeling my handmovement + thrust + aiming or so). [ #dream #visualize ]
I think I've only ever dreamt of juggling once. I dream of juggling conventions fairly often. There frequently isn't any juggling in the juggling convention dreams, but I know I'm at a juggling convention. I'll give myself a 7.
Okay. Sounds more like "maybe, rather yes" to me(?). Then maybe 3. or 4, (both definite "yes"), if you're sure, you did, or 6. if you're you're not all sure, but positively think you did, would fit better? - 7. was really more meant as an "almost, but definitely not" .. everything is ready and setup to juggle, but you don't or can't or don't know how (the emphasis is not on the surroundings-story, but just to elude on "nearly could and should've but it didn't happen"). Actually, I meant the poll to find out how many are even able to juggle while dreaming. (But, hey, whatever you think! I'm happy about everyone who finds a choice that fits him.)
It's not all clear: does "you think" in
"I think I've only ever dreamt of juggling once." refer to "dreamt of juggling" or to "ever only once"? Do or do you not have a memory of indeed yourself juggling?
I've definitely dreamt about juggling conventions. I may have dreamt about actual juggling. I don't usually remember my dreams well nor conversations about them. I slightly remember discussing having a juggling dream that wasn't the usual so I think I may have been juggling in it. Or perhaps I actually saw juggling (as the convention dreams don't usually (or ever?) have juggling in them. It's all a bit hazy for sure. I'm a definite 7 and maybe a 4 but I won't commit to that.
I have dreamt I was passing clubs at least twice. I don't remember details (like what pattern or passing partners) but I think I remembered a bit more right after I woke up. I believe I woke up in the middle of the pattern, not after dropping. Good dreams. :)
I'll put that as a 4.
Have definitely dreamt of juggling conventions a few times, too. At least more times than about actual juggling... As far as I can remember, of course.
...and shortly after I wrote that answer I slept and dreamed about working out new take-out passing patterns (on paper and by walking through the moves) together with another passer that I know from conventions. I know who the other juggler was but not what pattern we were working on. No actual juggling in that dream, though.
First without effort, and second when I was learning to lucid dream.
(I don't bother with lucid dreaming anymore)
Awesome. Can you still recall that ´´film´´, can you remember the pattern(s) and if you juggled same that you juggle when you really juggle (awake) or better and harder pattern(s), did it feel like real juggling with you controlling, acting & reacting, or did it somehow ´´hover´´, go all by itself, with you being able to watch like your own audience, was it °-.,~°happy°~.,.-°, did you ´´upgrade´´ first step to superhuman juggler, did it impact on your real juggling or did it rather seem as a fulfilment of your real juggling, a confirmation, a validation, a corroboration burnt by and into subconsciousness as affirmation?
The first time I dreamt about juggling was the most memorable. Myself and many friends were lined up to enter jail cells (for some unknown reason, but we were all resigned to it). I was among the first group locked away, but at the time (when awake), I'd often vaguely fantasized about going to jail and juggling all day, every day. I juggled a 3b cascade while sitting on some riser (a crate?). I dropped, the ball went off my foot and rolled out of the cell to a yet-to-be restrained friend of mine. They shot me such a nasty look that it woke me up.
When I was practicing lucid dreaming, I dreamt of practicing 7b cascade (probably half a dozen times or so). I didn't find that it helped, and found that I woke less rested than usual when this happened, so I stopped. Maaaybe this helped me "feel" what it was like to run it, but I doubt it had any real benefit. I was able to slow things down, see things from a third party point of view, etc.
fantasized about going to jail and juggling all day, every day.
I - when awake - sometimes have that martial arts movie-picture ("The snake in the shadow of the Eagle" or sth) of Jackie Chan training (barehanded) in a desert in my mind's eye, or that guy with his nunchucks-like three-parts-staff practising.
Sobers me up a bit that it shouldn't have any practise effect as I imagined. I'd still do it, though :o) (°gee° slomo, zoom at will, third party view - sounds sooo cool!)
Yes, fun question. I remember it vividly.
First time I dreamed of flashing 7 clubs under the low ceilling at the place where I used to take breaks while juggling at the squash courts.
Second time I dreamed doing exactly 50 catches of 9 balls and being really content about my achievment(maybe one day I will really do it, and be satisfied in real life )
Third time, I did 5 connected db97531's with balls while sitting down on a chair.
So cool! Amazing. Did you also feel the juggling in your hands or just rather like watched yourself do it?
This competition has now ended with 11 votes cast. The results are:
So tomorrow is MKJC8. It looks like it might be fairly miserable driving there but that it will be brightening early afternoon and dry for the rest of the day/night.
The convention starts at 10 am with workshops starting at 11 am. I'm going to be running an intermediate old school one diabolo workshop that concentrates on knots and around the arm/leg moves. Anyone who is old enough will probably remember all these tricks but hopefully someone will get something from it.
The catering from previous years (apart from last year) will be back again.
Games will be at 4 pm and as I have read that Jon Peat will not be there this year other people have a chance at the endurance events.
The show will be approximately 7 pm - 9pm and the line-up (not in order) includes:
Brook and Becky
and Matt the Devil Sticker from Corby (sorry don't currently know his surname)
The compere would like to be known as Stevie Vegas.
I hope to see as many of you as possible and as I have very few things to do during the day I also hope to actually enjoy the convention.
I had fun yesterday. Got there probably too early, but lots of time for chatting, mooching about and drinking coffee with friends. I even played a little kendama. It was good fun being in the show (thanks for the nice comments, those who gave them), and I really enjoyed seeing Brook & Becky's act that I'd heard good things of, and meeting up with my old friend Matt Hennem, and seeing him do his wiggly thing again. :-) Mucking about with Greeny in the curtain call was top silly fun too.
I was very confused by Matt asking me which day I'd arrived on. Apparently, if you're not careful, you can misconstrue "MKJC8 - 11th November" as "MJKC, 8-11 November". LOL.
Cheers to all the MKJC crew.
Glad you enjoyed it. It was good to see your act again. When I go through my photos tomorrow I hope I will have got some of the faces you pulled in the show. it's a shame that we didn't have Jon Peat there to write a review I wonder if anyone else will do it.
eJuggle happily posts fest reviews from others besides Jon. Be in touch with me to contribute to eJuggle.
I put 3 photos on this page to give you an idea https://www.facebook.com/events/125838554740265/ I apologise for the quality of the photos, these are cropped from slightly less poor quality photos but I wasn't really concentrating on the photography as I only really wanted one photo per act for the DVD cover. As it is I didn't get one for Concrete Circus being peripherally involved with the act.
Congratulations to the Void!
I have just read on a Facebook post from Donald Grant that he has passed his 6th Dan Kendama exam. this is the highest level and he has become the first ever non-Japanese to manage it. I know that he has had several attempts beforehand and that it had proved elusive even though all the individual skills were doable. So many congratulations on his perseverance.
Apologies for the uncapitalised 't' at the start of a sentence. Just goes to show I should read my posts more thoroughly before hitting the post button.
Thank you, Nigel. I'll even forgive you the "t".
I wrote a Twitter thread about it, that starts here:
Today I became the first non-Japanese player to pass the highest grade of 6th Dan in kendama. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. 1/- pic.twitter.com/SdzusdcqQn
— The Void (@TheVoidTLMB) October 14, 2017
This is really cool. Congrats.
Is there an easy to read list of the tricks you needed to do, with video links?
I don't know enough about kendama to be sure, but this video claims to show all the tricks for 6th Dan in kendama: https://youtu.be/Yx47Uh6OfQo
http://kendama.co.uk/tricks.html lists them all, with gifs, if that will do you. Right hand column of the Advanced/Dan table will show you how many of each one I had to do successfully in 10 attempts. (Plus, of course, having previously done all the stuff to get to 5th Dan, and then wait a year before being allowed to try.)
Yes, the list is good and the rules are clear. The gifs make my eyes bleed though, so the video was highly appreciated.
If you want to read the long* story, it’s at http://kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3098.msg29896.html#msg29896 (after the tweets).
* Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
That was a great read thank you. The story is always much more interesting than just the bare facts. All the more satisfying to learn that your achievement was in spite of sub-optimal conditions.
* As ever I disagree with the insinuation that 'long' equals 'bad'.
Well done Void! First in the world is a helluva thing!
I enjoyed the 'long' read.
Thank you. But it's far from "first in the world". There are ~30-40 extant Japanese 6th Dan players. But I'll take it. :-)
Yes, fair point. I actually meant first non-Japanese in the world, as per OP, but now you've got me thinking about it I see that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.
How about this: Congrats Void! Approximately 41st in the world is a helluva thing!
I go along with that.
On foreign terrain it's so much the better an achievement as the natives always have an edge or two with a long tradition an' all on their side. On a side note, as a halfway decent chess player (over 50% on club level), I had been into Chinese Chess, Xiangqi, for a while, and the natives (real-life and online play) gave me a hard time to even win one game and leave rookie level, while I could win games against germans or other longnoses. However.
Congrats, The Void!
Well done mate. I didn't even know you were trying again this year. Is that it now or can you go even higher?
Camvention 2017 - Review
Thank you for running another excellent convention, Camvention! :-D
I have written a review and I know some of you are excited to read it. Unfortunately, it will not be posted online till Wednesday this week due to delays on the IJA side of the pond.
... interestingly a copied and pasted emoji from Facebook meant the rest of message was not posted...
Here it is:
Thank you for running another excellent convention, Camvention! :-D
I have written a review and I know some of you are excited to read it. Unfortunately, it will not be posted online till Wednesday this week due to delays on the IJA side of the pond. (sad emoji face with a little tear on its sad face)
If you keep an eye on this page you may get the first glimpse when it does come online: https://www.juggle.org/category/ejuggle-festival-reviews/
I will re-post with a direct link when it does become available. :-)
Delays were on the IJA side of the Mediterranean.
practise versus ``talent´´
(no matter which level you're on - just started or world champion ..)
How much do you think that all your skills are (to which part) a result of practise or hard ``work´´, perseverance, or else
(to which part) did they ``come to you´´ by a natural preference for juggling (or object manipulation or artistry oror) or by a natural predisposition or a love for juggling making learning easier (than e.g. for the average juggler, or e.g. than learning another skill or art of motion or sportive activity)?
A few aspects helping to answer:
Even Gatto said sth like, there's no such thing talent on his level or for him - it was all hard hard work.
Think of what you can't do even though you think you should.
Was your decision or how you got to juggling totally intrinsic (=absolutely "yours" and the only thing to do, ``necessary´´ in a way) or could it just aswell have been something else, another hobby or activity.
Do you see yourself improving and learning much faster than others (that's the point, not learning easy stuff fast only).
Do others admire the speed you improve or learn (while you yourself might not have noticed).
And a question that I'm interested in:
Do you think or have you experienced a hidden talent waking up after already having juggled for a good while? Do you think that's possible to ``wake up the natural inside you´´?
I myself am somewhere between 2 and 3, but sill blundering a real lot when not yet warmed up or when not concentrating, also failing over long phases, makes me say "2", even though I hope for it to become easier, maybe the natural skill inside waking up, some day when I've reached my goals and then not having to so much do at the limit anymore. I don't think I'd have gotten where I am without the inner decision to dedicate to the 7b cascade, which is maybe rather a preference than ``natural talent´´, who knows.
You're asking multiple questions at once, which makes it hard to answer correctly...
I think I have some but little natural talent in learning object manipulation skills. However I am extremely predisposed to love juggling which makes it incredibly easy to spend countless hours on practice. So effectively my natural affection for juggling makes me a good juggler?
Yes, [>>"multiple wording"<<], wanted to include a wide range of viewpoints for "talent\\not talent".
Okay, that makes it a bit difficult ("little natural talent, but love for juggling making practise easy"),
but, as the question is scaled along "talent vs. practise", I'd say, your description says, that your love for juggling sort of enables or helps you to make up for little natural talent. But you don't sound, like new skills ``come to you´´ or that your natural afffection for juggling makes learning (notably) easier than for the average juggler or than another activity - at least not in a way that would spare you to still having to practise a whole lot. That would be a clear "2", I'd say.
So, @ all, if in doubt, feel free to read the options as roughly ..
1. 0-5% talent - 95-100% practise (hard work only)
2. 5-25% talent - 75-95% practise
3. 25-45% talent - 55-75% practise
4. 45-55% talent - 45-55% practise (equal)
5. 55-75% talent - 25-45% practise
6. 75-95% talent - 5-25% practise
7. 95-100% talent - 0-5% practise (pure talent, just do it and it will naturally succeed in ridiculously short time)
I put myself down as a number 2. I think I'm very similar to Daniel, I got good at juggling because when I first started I enjoyed it so much I did nothing but practice. Perhaps because of my enjoyment I didn't realise it was 'hard work'.
Agreed. The choices are made a bit complex by the 'love of juggling' part, which I think makes the vote lose focus on the nature vs nurture argument. I think that any natural aptitude is very small, but I voted 2 for the same reason as you.
Interesting Gatto's comment that he thinks it was all hard work. Where does that quote come from? On his own forum years ago he said that he believes he has some kind of natural advantage and sees things "in slow motion". Although I don't believe that at all I do think that believing it helped him a lot.
I always thought that seeing things in slow motion is acquired. When you first start attempting 5 balls it feels frantic and crazy fast and impossible. After a while (perhaps a few years or more), it can seem slow and simple. Gravity obviously hasn't changed but your perception has.
Sometime after I was pretty solid with 5 balls, I remember when it really clicked even more and became truly effortless. I fondly remember that as my juggling nirvana.
That 'love of juggling' wording is due to me trying to exclude, that ``talent´´ (which anyway is hard to seize as notion) need be determined by some genetic predisposition, let alone by a distinct ``juggling gene´´. And I tried to allow, that a wunderkind could feel as a natural without a need to have genetic evidence, without the need to have been ``born as juggler´´, just with love of juggling, then. Also, I wanted to avoid any discussion about whether ``(genetic) talent´´ even exists or not.
That Gatto statement is nothing like a citation with a source; I had it in mind, read it somewhere - it might be a mere rumour or misinterpretation (alas, I have no idea, where I got that from).
I'd put me somewhere between 5-6. When I can dredge up enough time to practice daily, I feel my progress goes by leaps and bounds, and it seems like I could be /very/ good if I were to try to make a career of juggling (or prioritize it higher).
There are certainly people who pick things up faster than me, but that population seems to be somewhere between 10-25 % of jugglers I know. There's probably some selection bias in there.
I'm a 2. I find it very difficult to understand juggling patterns and I've always learned everything slower than most. My love of juggling has helped me keep up the practicing.
This poll has now ended. The results are:
Balancing and juggling (and juggling and balancing)
I wrote up a little tutorial on learning to juggle with a balance (or... is it learning to balance with a juggle?..!)
Thought some of you might get a kick out of it! Curious to hear if my experiences are parallel with any of your own.
That was an excellent read, thank you. Please show it to /r/juggling as well if you haven't already.
I found myself both agreeing and disagreeing with so much of it. But that's a reflection of my understanding of the trick, which has changed considerably over time. I used to think that it should be regarded as a single trick rather than a combination of two, but I eventually realised that it's better if you let the balance come first. I'm still not sure it isn't actually a single trick, but nowadays I very much agree with the importance of focusing on the balance.
But since I learned the trick before I learned to focus completely on the balance it seems evident that one can divide one's attention somewhat, and still succeed. It's hard to remember but I think back then I tried not to look at any one thing at all, just see the whole picture.
Thanks, Cedric! Just posted it over on Reddit. (Feel free to give an upvote! ha!)
I'm still not sure it's a single trick, either, haha. I think that three with a balance is certainly "canon" enough that can stand on its own as a trick, but find that learning different tricks while maintaining the balance makes that perspective lacking... (would you agree?)
Your comment about dividing attention definitely corresponds with my experience with headbounce... if you focus on any one thing too much, it all falls apart. You've got to see the whole thing all at once!
Just got around to reading it, and I think that you've covered everything I either picked up from other people or intuitively tried in the "conscious incompetence" phase.
I like the way you've written it up and illustrated it though - and I think you actually managed to describe why I've never found the forehead balance as comfortable as everyone seems to have told me it is - it's because I have to flip my perception.
You might even have inspired me to have another crack at getting it solid.
Awesome! I'm really excited that there wasn't much new info in there for you, actually... Doing my best to be comprehensive with these posts, and if I've covered everything that's occurred to you, I must be doing something right!
Good stuff. When learning the Bungay trick, I remembered Haggis McLeod's exhortation from his Club Juggling instructional video: DON'T DROP THE BALANCE. (Which pretty much summarises your article in a sentence.) It's really hard to keep doing that when you're first trying to add some throws under the balance, but it pays dividends in the end.
I never did work hard enough on just a club balance with a cascade. Maybe I should try again....
I think I made a VHS rip of it and still have it on my PC somewhere, but I didn't put it online because oddballs were selling it on DVD at the time.
It makes for wonderful "omg the hair! The clothes! The sheer bloody 1990s of it all"
Good stuff, Thom. A few thoughts:
I think I remember hearing that Gatto recommended the forehead balance since it gives the audience a better view of your face. That insight is presumably from Nick, actually. So, forehead might be better for performer-types.
The Reading Test is my favorite drill before you put it all together. Work on it a lot after your balance is solid and before you work on adding the juggling. Try to get your head back as far as you can, even looking up somewhat behind straight up so you rely on minimal peripheral vision of the clubs.
Placing into a Balance - the trick here is to catch the club you're going to put into a balance up high and as close to the balance point as possible so there's not a lot of movement (and time) to get it into the balance. Watch people doing constant balances on one side and you'll see very high catches and minimal movement to actually put the clubs into the balance/roll).
One thing you didn't mention is clubs vs balls. Learning with 3 clubs is much easier than with 3 balls since you will see the clubs easier with your peripheral vision than balls which are generally thrown lower (throwing them high enough for suitable juggling with a balance is an unnatural slow rhythm). 4 balls is similarish height to 3 clubs so a reasonable start for those who prefer sphericals. I think it was "The Complete Juggler" that suggested that even numbers might actually be easier for juggling with a balance.
I'm guessing that even numbers would only be easier for the nose or chin balance since the club would obscure the crossing point of the cascade.
Funny that you say up high when referring to what I would call the bottom of the handle. Perhaps your mental model of a club is the other way round to mine. The disadvantage of catching near the knob for placing into a balance is that it's harder to get it to the right angle, but you're right that it can be quicker and easier to position it accurately.
By "up high" I meant with your arm raised up high, right near your forehead. Another thing about this is that the throw should be one and a quarter spin so instead of catching the club perpendicular to your body line like normal, you catching it more vertically, oriented and ready for quick placement on your face.
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