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Mike Moore -

ULTIMATE JUGGLING TRICKS CHALLENGE # 1 – BALLS

The IJA is running a (simplifying pretty heavily here) single round of global JUGGLE. Two parts: the first to set tricks/patterns jugglers think others may not be able to do, and the second for everyone to try to do those tricks/patterns. For this round, only toss juggling with balls is allowed (no endurances). Full rules here: https://www.juggle.org/ultimate-juggling-tricks-challenge-1-balls/

Luke made the very interesting prediction that every trick/pattern will be replicated by at least one other juggler. I'm very interested in this event, and to see if he's right! I'm assuming that there will be about a month allowed to try to replicate others' tricks, but I don't think that's been announced.

Two questions I'm curious about:
Do you think Luke's prediction will hold? If not, which patterns (and by whom) do you think will stand?
Do you like this event?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I would love to see more juggling challenges, so thank you David for organizing this one!
I've suggested a couple to juggleshare, and since he seems to have disappeared I might run some myself at some point.

This particular challenge, I'm not sure about yet. For one, I might not want to encourage other jugglers to try out my coolest hardest most original tricks. Secondly I think that the incentive to try and beat a trick is relatively low. I might even try a trick that I like, manage to do it, but there is little to gain except for some exposure to then record it on camera. I don't mean that there should be better prizes or something like that, I believe that submitting to a challenge should be inherently interesting. But sure, if people feel like there is a big honor in submitting, it will work!

I do hope that there will be many participants, and I do hope this event sparks of more challenges in the future.
Here is the list of challenges I suggested earlier, anyone is free to take from these directly or as inspiration of course!

http://jugglingedge.com/forum.php?ThreadID=3063&SmallID=22747#Small22747

Mike Moore - - Parent

"Secondly I think that the incentive to try and beat a trick is relatively low."

While true, if there are any entries near my bailiwick, I'm going after them!

Out of my repertoire of patterns that I feel would be hard to replicate...I feel like they're all poking Haavard into participating. I haven't thought of any that I don't think he could do pretty quickly.

peterbone - - Parent

Alex Barron could just flash 13 balls (not too difficult for him) and no-one else would replicate it. There are others who can do things that no-one else is close to (long runs of 7 balls backcrosses for example). The question is if any of those people will enter.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Considering endurances are off limits, what are some other tricks/patterns you think are unique to certain jugglers?

peterbone - - Parent

I had forgotten that endurance is off limits. However, if Ty Tojo did something like a 7 up from backcrosses that would probably do it. Another off the top of my head would be one of Ofek's crazy multi pirouettes with 7 balls. Another possible way to go about this challenge would be to memorise and juggle a long prime siteswap for one cycle, as probably no-one else would bother to try.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Submitted. In the process, twice I landed my trick without the camera working (once I didn't start it properly by mistake, and once it ran out of memory 30 seconds before I landed it), and in submitting I discovered to my shame that what I thought was an 8 turned out to be a 7 :/ Interested to see if there are any interesting tricks submitted!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oo, I'm excited to see what you've done!

I was all psyched to get 32 catches of my trick (four rounds)...then I got sick. 16 catches it is (though I got one take of 24 catches).

Disappointed because I think there's a real plateau after 16 catches that I'd like people to struggle with!

lukeburrage - - Parent

"Luke made the very interesting prediction that every trick/pattern will be replicated by at least one other juggler. I'm very interested in this event, and to see if he's right!"

The reason I think all these tricks will be replicated is that I have history in copying other people's tricks. Check out this project:

https://youtu.be/9lmHEHZNY5U

There were a few tricks that defeated me, a few that I only ever intended to joke-copy, and a few where I used video editing tricks. But otherwise I managed to copy many, many tricks which I presumed would be beyond me. For example, Alex Barron doing 999333 with the second 3 behind the head? I'd never tried anything like that before! And I got it after about 30 minutes trying. Brook and I got the 8 club double pirouette in one juggling session, even though I'd never done that kind of thing while passing. Loads of stuff I tried for the first time... and usually got what I wanted. On top of that I had to act like the jugglers too.

And I'm not even that good of a juggler compared to many other jugglers who could attempt to copy the tricks of others.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oh, I'm very aware of this project, it is one of my favourite juggling projects ever done! The suspense, the execution...that was a masterpiece of top 40.

I wonder if people are going to pull out things deeper in their niches for this competition than they usually do. That's what I tried to do for it, anyway. I'm excited to see what was submitted, and who can replicate what.

lukeburrage -

Here's a video the juggling history nerds might enjoy:

https://youtu.be/x4XQBcBhgfM

Yup, almost 24 minutes on a single juggling trick! But one of the most famous bits of juggling. Never before has it been so easy to compare different versions of the Brunn Finish Combination Trick.

Thanks to David Cain for sharing some never-before-published clips from Freddy Kenton and Johnny Joannides. A list of (most of) the source videos can be found over on my blog: http://www.lukeburrage.com/blog/archives/2613

Daniel Simu - - Parent

"might"!?

Thanks for the research, the compiling and the sharing! Good luck with the practicing and building!

Colin E. - - Parent

That's a great video - thanks Luke. I've always loved Ernest Montego's version

lukeburrage - - Parent

I learned last night that in Spanish, or at least in South America, the trick is known as "the combination twelve trick" which, I'm sure, is a reference to the number of objects Brunn catches from his assistant at the start. Maybe it should be "the combination thirteen trick".

The Void - - Parent

Bored on a cruise, were you? :-)

lukeburrage - - Parent

I wanted to learn some combination trick things, so looked into the ultimate version of it. As in, how should it be done, not just how I would do it from memory. Then, of course, I discovered how many different ways it could be done. Then I wanted to work out what the minimum viable version of the trick might be but still qualify as "the brunn finish".

I concluded:
- minimum 9 props, to at least match the earliest version of Piccinelli and Brunn.
- the trick is about ball spinning, ring whirling, juggling, and balancing, all at the same time.
- must include a ball spun on a finger, objects juggled in the other hand, a ball on a mouth pedestal/mouthstick, a ball on a head pedestal balance, and at least one ring whirling on a leg/foot.
- if any above element is missing, it must be "made up for" by inclusion of more props/elements added elsewhere.

The version of the trick that has most elements is Ernst Montego's. The version which is closest to the line of not being included was Michael Chirrick's as there is no balance of a prop involved, and unlike Albert Lucas he doesn't make up for it by performing while on ice skates or similar. But he does have four rings whirling, which means he's not slacking elsewhere.

Only after I put the video together did I notice that mine is the only version where two feet are on the ground. In my defence, I've learned this to put in my second show on cruise ships for when the ship is moving so much in high seas that I can't do my rola bola finale. You can only tell the stage is moving in the video clip because the curtains are swaying in the background. Even standing on one leg is too much in that situation, so I'm not sure if I'll ever bother to learn it so I can perform it on one leg.

Cedric Lackpot -

A glossary of juggling terminology - does such a thing exist?

In this subthread over on Reddit someone has asked for a glossary of modern juggling, and to my surprise I realised that I'm not sure such a thing exists, not an authoritative one anyway. Can any Edgizens prove me wrong please? Or suggest some good places for a curious Redditor to start looking? David Cain do you perhaps have some suggestions?

peterbone - - Parent

I think it was our God Emperor who created this one. Seems quite thorough.
https://www.twjc.co.uk/glossary.html

Dee - - Parent

Although I would question "Backdrop"; to me that is what is behind you - in terms of filming or performing (so, do your props contrast sufficiently with the backdrop or do they blend in?) [I would definitely include that as an alternative meaning]

Otherwise, its a pretty good start on a juggling glossary, it maybe requiring a bit of updating in terms of references to people (perhaps, to make it a bit more timeless, I would omit living people from the glossary)

Orinoco - - Parent

Yeah, I couldn't find anything comprehensive when I looked either, which was what prompted me to compile that page.

It's been a while since I've added anything to that page, I think the last addition was buugeng.

I have added the extra definition for backdrop. I've also removed most of the living jugglers from view. I've left in those who I feel are more famous for a contribution they have made to juggling culture rather than for who they are.

New suggestions are always welcome. Any glaring ommissions from the past few years that I should include?

Mike Moore - - Parent

Box and an inverted modifier!

peterbone - - Parent

Squeeze catch

Orinoco - - Parent

Both terms added, & inverse too which is related. Suggestions for less clunkily worded definitions also welcome!

lukeburrage - - Parent

"Combat: US term for Gladiators" should be "Gladiators: the British term for combat".

Orinoco - - Parent

Yeah, I suppose you are right, it does seem to be a purely British term now. I wonder when that changed? I clearly remember it being announced as gladiators during the games at the EJC in 2002.

& is it a 3 club specific thing? I don't think I've ever heard the term 'unicycle combat' for example.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Gladiators is more of a generic term for "the last person doing this prop/skill with contact between participants allowed" so unicycle gladiators is usually still a thing. Also hoop gladiators or ball-on-head gladiators.

Combat is for three clubs and three balls.

charlieh - - Parent

I think it changed when too many people started using the wrong word.

The Void - - Parent

*spills coffee laughing*

Mike Moore -

Antipodism with a head stand

I'll take things I'd never seen for $400, Alex:

https://www.facebook.com/jose.hugo.102/posts/10210487010914965

(Worth the FB link. Worked on private browsing without a login)

Orinoco - - Parent

Wow, that is pretty special.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Is it wrong that I mainly notice the clothing choices?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I train in the same space where Jose recorded this. He also has a pretty solid 4 clubs, which I think is even more insane!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Queer skill, queer onsight. Awesome!

bad1dobby - - Parent

I've seen a few examples of inverted antipodism, but if memory serves they were all in head-to-head balance.

Except for Rastelli:
https://youtu.be/mowNKg1vhl8?t=1m49s
(in case the time link doesn't embed, jump to 1:49)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

There is plenty of handstand antipodism. For example that clip Violetta kiss spinning a staff while doing a one arm on Alexander?

bad1dobby - - Parent

Yes, I totally messed up what I was trying to say - I meant head-balance antip.

You are absolutely right - lots of handstands.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Thanks for this (and the David Cain) link!

bad1dobby - - Parent

Excellent article from David Cain on the related area of inverted juggling:
https://www.juggle.org/inverted-toss-and-bounce-juggling/

David Cain, if you're reading this, the photo of Reverhos doing 5 clubs in practice has disappeared.

The Void - - Parent

More Rodolfo Reyes just popped up on JTV:
http://juggling.tv/16698

Brook Roberts -

21st September 2013, at Bristol juggling convention. One my passing resources I take to conventions is James' sheet of passing siteswaps (https://goo.gl/b9UYT9), with 4 handed siteswaps grouped into categories. In discussion with someone (who eludes me now), I claim an amusing challenge might be to try and do all of the siteswaps on the sheet, with some rules about what 'completing' a pattern means. Some basic rules are drawn up - 8 rounds to a clean finish for period 3 siteswaps, 6 rounds to a clean finish for period 5 or 7, holds must be active and flipped, and a few others.

Keen and eager, I accost various people at the convention to tick off patterns, redoing completions if the pattern was a bit messy, teaching people new patterns and e.g. ticking off 966 (7 club 3 count) with someone who had never tried the pattern before. Danny is keen to motor through some with me, and he suggests it would be amusing to have various achievements like in video games - an achievement for completing your first pattern with me, an achievement for completing an entire section (we promptly find an easy section with only 4 patterns and complete it), one for getting a pattern in every section, and so on.

Back home from the convention, excited about my new incredibly nerdy challenge, I decide I should keep an electronic copy (rather than just ticking off on the sheet) of my progress, since I know how often I lose things. I make a few auto stats keeping things. One thing it tells me is how many patterns are on the sheet. Whenever I have shown the sheet to people on papre and asked how many patterns there are, they guess about 100, somewhere in the 80-200 range. It turns out there are 534! It also turns out there 202 sync patterns (actually 101, but the two sides do different things, and I decided I should do both sides), which on reflection don't look as fun as the others. On closer examination (and in discussion with James') it becomes apparent that some of the sections are somewhere between hard and impossible. He laughs when I tell him of the idea of doing all of them and points at the '8 clubs with zaps' section. Zaps, 2.5p's, are very fast passes, and there are plenty of very hard 5 and 6 club patterns with zaps - it's doubtful if anyone has ever tried any of the 14 patterns in that section, or if anyone is capable of trying them.

I plough on regardless, making fun progress. At one point I make a strong concerted effort over many sessions to make progress towards my first 9 club pattern, a89, with Alex, a juggler near me. Just as we get close, he moves away! But at the next convention, where we have set aside the entire morning to finally nail this, it takes about 4 attempts, and a milestone feels reached. It starts to get harder however, and the pool of people I can do the patterns with shrinks. Getting new people on the sheet is a fun goal, but the skill someone has to have to get on the sheet grows. The enormity of the task dawns, and while for well over a year I manage to keep my average above 1 pattern per day, it gets harder. As I get to around 40%, motivation drops, the realisation that I'm not even halfway through grows and the knowledge that almost all of the remaining patterns are harder than almost those I've done is daunting.

For over a year, progress is slow. I feel lost in the middle of the sheet. At conventions people ask me how the sheet is going, and it always feels disappointing to admit I've not done much recently. For a while I don't have a regular passing partner who can plough through the sheet with me.

Eventually though, I get over 60%, and I'm counting down rather than up. The feel is a bit different - I only do the patterns with an increasing small and able group of partners, and there's no chance of me redoing messy runs - I take any clean finish I can, in some cases fudging the timing way beyond sensible to cram a pattern to completion. I have increasing esoteric knowledge of ways patterns will be difficult, and regularly describe what the difficulties and solutions to doing a certain siteswap will be to my partner - before we even try it once. As I get closer to my goal, motivation increases, but there's always this worry that at some point the patterns become fundamentally impossible, that at some point progress will dramatically slowdown. I guess that this might happen at about 80%, or 85%, and that after that every single pattern will become a monumental effort.

Today I just ticked over 85%, and the pattern that took me there was a8958. It was the first ever pattern I achieved from the 8 clubs with zaps section of the sheet, the only section that until today I had failed to get a single pattern from. And more than that, it proved that I could get the patterns in that section, and that progress is still possible. To get there, I had to train zaps repeatedly with the same partner, Cameron, for the last month, but we removed a slew of 6 and 7 club zap patterns in the process.

I'm now at 85.02% done, with 80 patterns left. 39 different jugglers have helped me get here, although over 50% of the entire sheet (not just those I've done) has been done by just 4 passers. The majority of patterns left are sync patterns, and the majority that aren't sync are zap patterns - there are precious few 'normal' patterns left, and I'm not rushing to do those!

It's not always clear that I enjoy ticking the patterns off sometimes, nor whether doing 454 (and counting) different siteswaps and juggling conventions has caused me to sometimes ignore other, possibly better (!) activities or passing patterns. That week in Bristol, I think I would still decide to embark on this quest, but possibly I would do it better with some forewarning of just how ludicrous this rather pointless task would be. But I'm increasing excited about seeing the end, and increasing determined to push forwards and actually complete this gigantic task, that many quite knowledgeable passers thought was difficult almost to the point of impossibility.

In case anyone read this far:
a) well done
b) https://goo.gl/utxfDP shows the patterns I have completed so far, and the names and summary tabs show some stats about my progress
c) https://youtu.be/mBKy65d08fw is the 8 club with zap pattern. It looks, er, like a lot of the other patterns I do
d) Cameron and I warm up with Holy Grail now, so we filmed a long run - https://youtu.be/jXdxYa1DELk
e) http://jugglingedge.com/forum.php?ThreadID=2335&SmallID=16982#Small16982 is my post from when I got to 50%
f) If you think you can do one of the remaining patterns, are not on the sheet and I don't know you, let me know :)

Brook

Brook Roberts - - Parent

The longest post I ever make, and there's a major grammar error on the first line :S Fancy fixing that someone, and making me a bit more satisfied with my monologue?

lukeburrage - - Parent

I'm so happy you and Cameron found each other.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

Worth pointing out that of the 80, 8 are invalid and one doesn't involve any actual passing...

I think of the ones left, about 10 are just too hard. You seem to have actually ticked one of these patterns off so maybe I am underestimating how much you and Cameron in particular have improved.

Glad I have consumed 4 years of your life with one simple spreadsheet however!

I wish you had stats on total time attempting patterns. I know we have spent close to 2 hours on single patterns before and I would guess the average is at least 20 minutes if not more. At 20 minutes on average this would give you 6.3 solid days to get the 454 patterns.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I was surprised to see I had only ticked off six patterns with Brook, as it felt like we put in a few hours of time at Bungay a few years ago. But if the average is about 20 minutes, then that seems about right. Although, if I remember correctly, one of them was a double ended pattern and we both did both ends, so the second version might have taken less time.

Now I want to try a seven or eight club zap pattern.

jamesfrancis - - Parent

56789 and 96956 are my favorites with 7. Both have a nice flow compared with some of the uglier patterns

Maria - - Parent

Oh, now I want to try, too... Should work a bit on my zaps.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

a5695 was one that I quite enjoyed as well.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Triple self, zap, self, triple pass, zap? Do you have a video?

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Triple self, self, zap, zap, double pass.
No, I've videoed very few of the patterns so far. Maybe I'll do it as part of my warm up with Cameron next time we do zaps though, now I've been reminded of it.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I think you should start the list again and get a video of every pattern.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Six is quite a few :) We got at least one of those at EJC I think?

James suggested some nice patterns, if you just want to try any 7 club zap pattern though, 885 is far easier that almost any of the other 7 club zap patterns. I feel like 885, 975 and 56789 were the only ones I'd regularly tried outside the sheet.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Ye of little faith, still! All the 8 with zaps will be hard work, but I think fundamentally doable, although maybe more like projects now. We failed the collect of 9a5 yesterday, so another will go soon :)

Yeah, I wish I had collected all sorts of things from the start. I think the mean and median would be very different here - there were quite a few that went quite fast, and then a few way out that I treated much more like projects (a89 when I ticked that off, and a8958 were both concerted efforts over multiple sessions). I actually ticked of 5p34 first time with Rhonda although that's a bit of an anomaly - we had been doing it anyway, and then I remembered it was on the sheet, so the first time after that we landed the collect.

Colin E. -

A robot Kendama?

I love this machine. Could watch it forever. pic.twitter.com/dvjUjpaMb6
— Vlastimil Hovan (@Vlastimil_Hovan) October 16, 2017


(watch to the end) not quite a 6th Dan, but still very impressive. Can't believe the guy watching this contraption walked away just as it got to the best bit!

lukeburrage - - Parent

It looks as though the guy works at the stand, and has seen it do the same routine all day. I'd be bored by it on the third day of a convention too!

Orinoco - - Parent

Very interesting, especially as I watched this video immediately after reading this piece from The New Yorker: welcoming our new robot overlords. The article mentions that object manipulation is one of the hottest topics in robotics.

I would like to see the larger version of this robot found in the comments do the throw, whip around, catch trick with a person.

https://youtu.be/cJCsomGwdk0

It's Him -

Congratulations to the Void!

I have just read on a Facebook post from Donald Grant that he has passed his 6th Dan Kendama exam. this is the highest level and he has become the first ever non-Japanese to manage it. I know that he has had several attempts beforehand and that it had proved elusive even though all the individual skills were doable. So many congratulations on his perseverance.

Nigel

It's Him - - Parent

Apologies for the uncapitalised 't' at the start of a sentence. Just goes to show I should read my posts more thoroughly before hitting the post button.

Nigel

The Void - - Parent

Thank you, Nigel. I'll even forgive you the "t".

I wrote a Twitter thread about it, that starts here:
Today I became the first non-Japanese player to pass the highest grade of 6th Dan in kendama. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. 1/- pic.twitter.com/SdzusdcqQn
— The Void (@TheVoidTLMB) October 14, 2017

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

Mazal tov from Israel.

lukeburrage - - Parent

This is really cool. Congrats.

Is there an easy to read list of the tricks you needed to do, with video links?

Thanar - - Parent

I don't know enough about kendama to be sure, but this video claims to show all the tricks for 6th Dan in kendama: https://youtu.be/Yx47Uh6OfQo

The Void - - Parent

Hi Luke,
Thank you.
http://kendama.co.uk/tricks.html lists them all, with gifs, if that will do you. Right hand column of the Advanced/Dan table will show you how many of each one I had to do successfully in 10 attempts. (Plus, of course, having previously done all the stuff to get to 5th Dan, and then wait a year before being allowed to try.)

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yes, the list is good and the rules are clear. The gifs make my eyes bleed though, so the video was highly appreciated.

The Void - - Parent

If you want to read the long* story, it’s at http://kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3098.msg29896.html#msg29896 (after the tweets).

* Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

Orinoco - - Parent

That was a great read thank you. The story is always much more interesting than just the bare facts. All the more satisfying to learn that your achievement was in spite of sub-optimal conditions.


* As ever I disagree with the insinuation that 'long' equals 'bad'.

bad1dobby - - Parent

Well done Void! First in the world is a helluva thing!

I enjoyed the 'long' read.

The Void - - Parent

Thank you. But it's far from "first in the world". There are ~30-40 extant Japanese 6th Dan players. But I'll take it. :-)

bad1dobby - - Parent

Yes, fair point. I actually meant first non-Japanese in the world, as per OP, but now you've got me thinking about it I see that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

How about this: Congrats Void! Approximately 41st in the world is a helluva thing!

The Void - - Parent

I'll take it! :-)

7b_wizard - - Parent

I go along with that.
On foreign terrain it's so much the better an achievement as the natives always have an edge or two with a long tradition an' all on their side. On a side note, as a halfway decent chess player (over 50% on club level), I had been into Chinese Chess, Xiangqi, for a while, and the natives (real-life and online play) gave me a hard time to even win one game and leave rookie level, while I could win games against germans or other longnoses. However.
Congrats, The Void!

Kelhoon - - Parent

Congrats Void, well done

Monte - - Parent

Well done mate. I didn't even know you were trying again this year. Is that it now or can you go even higher?

The Void - - Parent

Cheers. It's the tops, it's the Colosseum. :)

Little Paul -

Anyone know if there’s a proposed date for chocfest yet? I can’t see anything in the events listing, but I’m trying to plan my January :)

Little Paul - - Parent

Damnit! Chocfest have just announced they’re going 20th jan - the one weekend I didn’t want them to go for :(

York Jugglers - - Parent

Sorry, we booked it straight after last Chocfest, but the someone else had already booked our preferred date so we had to go for a week earlier.

Does this mean you might not be coming Paul?

www.jugglingedge.com/event.php?EventID=4746

#chocfest23

Little Paul - - Parent

It means I definitely won’t be coming, I’m getting married instead - venue and registrar we’re booked this afternoon.

It also means some of my guest list will have to choose too :(

If only you had announced yesterday!

lukeburrage - - Parent

Congrats!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Wow! Congratulations!

Kelhoon - - Parent

congrats on the wedding, boo for the clashes

charlieh - - Parent

Yay! Congrats!

The Void - - Parent

Congrats to you both.

Orinoco - - Parent

Yay! Congratulations to you both!

Al_Bee - - Parent

Yay. Many congrats. Best wishes to you both. Have fun!

Bob Dilworth - - Parent

Congratulations, Paul. Great news!

bad1dobby - - Parent

Congrats LP!

lukeburrage -

E

lukeburrage - - Parent

J

lukeburrage - - Parent

C

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

See you tomorrow!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Was awesome!

The Void -

Some nice footwork. http://juggling.tv/16529

lukeburrage - - Parent

That's one of the most exhausting-looking juggling sequence I've ever seen.

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