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lukeburrage -

This past weekend I was in Bergamo, Italy for the Rastelli Festival 2017. I made a video. Enjoy!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

This was a nice vlog, thanks!

Phranchesskah -

Hello I'm new here, please love and welcome me!

I'm almost a beginner at juggling but am earnestly practising to overcome that identity ;)

I like chocolate.

I'm looking forward to becoming a part of your community here, you seem like a nice enough lot of folks.

Orinoco - - Parent

Welcome Phranchesskah. What sort of chocolate are you working on at the moment?

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm rather partial to lindt lindor truffles at the moment, which isn't a particularly cheap habit.

vazonun - - Parent

Can't get enough of Vego Hazelnut vegan chocolate bar myself, also not very cheap.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Are you an expert on chocolate milk by any chance

Phranchesskah - - Parent

I'm not one for chocolate milk I'm afraid. I feel it ruins the chocolate, and the milk.

Phranchesskah - - Parent

Conscious Chocolate make the very best organic raw handmade expensive chocolate. and also I like Terry's. and also Lindt 90% dark chocolate, and mini eggs, and Cadbury's Dairy Milk, and Galaxy, and Galaxy caramel, and mint Matchmakers, and Crunchies! and Kinder eggs and also Toblerone.

I just love chocolate.

I also like cacao ceremonies.

vazonun - - Parent

Yes, I have tried the Mint Conscious Chocolate, it is very good, but indeed super expensive.

Phranchesskah - - Parent

They were giving it out for free at the door to the Mind Body Spirit festival in London a few weeks ago. So obviously I made friends with the guy on the door so I could keep going back for more :D

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi & welcome Phranchesskah! .. "seem nice enough" .. Haha! .. wait 'til you get to know us better ;o]p

York Jugglers - - Parent

Welcome to the Edge

You should come to Chocfest in January in York, we have a mini festival of juggling and chocolate.


Phranchesskah - - Parent

Ooooh what! That's genius. I will definitely be there.

Cedric Lackpot -

Teeterboard in the French countryside.

Good clean quirky fun, Gallic style. If you look closely you can see they are chain-smoking Gauloises.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool. Haven't seen ``consecutives´´ before (seen it only as jumptool in circus).

Daniel Simu - - Parent

If you're into Korean style teeterboard (different from Hungarian style, which you descriped as a jumptool), be sure to follow Aaron Hakala

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool. Instantly lifts my spirits when something or someone flies. ;o])

Orinoco -

I would like to give some public love to Ron Trickett, Duncan Smith, Ewan Chrichton, Stephanie Schneider & the rest of BJC 2016 team for a very generous donation towards the running of the Edge & also (which I hope to reveal an interesting new section towards the end of next month). Ron's donation has enabled me to get a significantly better deal on hosting which sees us secure for a good number of years.

I have an enormous appreciation for anyone who invests their time, money or skills in our juggling community. I am both humbled & exceptionally grateful to be chosen as the recipient for these funds.


Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thank you wonderful people!

unigamer - - Parent

Great news, thanks to Orinoco and the BJC 2016 team.

Stephen Meschke -

Juggling Data Set.

I have created a juggling data set. It consists of several videos of different juggling patterns, graphs, and .csv (spreadsheet) files. Some of the data is visualized in this Youtube video: Juggling Pattern Waveforms.

To create the dataset, I first took video of myself juggling. Next, using computer vision, I recorded the locations of the juggling balls in a spreadsheet. Once the data is captured in a spreadsheet, it can be easily analyzed. For example, this is the data for the pattern 423:

Collecting the data (the positions of the balls) from the video and recording it in a spreadsheet requires specialization in computer vision, particularly object recognition and tracking. Now that the data has been taken from the video and put in a spreadsheet, it is much easier to analyze!

The data can also be analyzed using Python (with the help of packages Pandas and Matplotlib). This short Python script shows how to load and graph the data.

One of the applications of this dataset is to compare two different jugglers who are juggling the same pattern. But, for this, I need your help! I would like to include juggling from other jugglers in this data set. If you could supply me with a high-quality short video clip of juggling, I could track the locations of the balls and add it to the data set.

Nikita - - Parent

Hey, Stephen.
I don't quite see what result you trying to achieve here, but I'd really like to help.
I'll try to record something tomorrow.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I have several goals for the juggling data set:

  • Provide a repository of high quality juggling data for others to study.
  • Compare actual juggling patterns to idealized juggling patterns.
  • Compare one juggler to another.
  • Create a system of juggling notation that describes actual juggling.
  • Provide a ground truth for others to measure ball tracking algorithms.
  • Aid in the programming of juggling robots.

"If you build it, they will come."

I don't know what people will do with this data set! Hopefully, this data will have some really cool applications in the field of machine learning.

Nikita - - Parent

I gave it another thought. You probably can find as many juggling videos as you want on you tube.
If you have any specific requirement for you soft to work, than you better list them.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I considered using videos from Youtube (This is the data from an 11 ball flash.).

There are a couple problems with using videos from Youtube:

  • I don't have the rights to the source video.
  • Most of the juggling on Youtube is filmed so that it is aesthetically pleasing, rather than optimized for object tracking.

The two methods that I am using to track balls are optical flow and colorspaces.

Here are a few things that can be done to optimize a video for object tracking:

  • Use juggling props that have as much contrast as possible, like green props on a tan and white background.
  • Juggle in a space with even lighting.
  • Capture the video in the highest resolution and frame rate possible, for tall patterns like 97531 it is best to turn the camera sideways and film with vertical video.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I guess it's also obvious that the props should be visible all the time, so that for example claws hiding a ball are unapt for tracking  ( or will the software just go on tracking where the ball appears again with data just not for only that hidden part of the balls trajectory, a hole in the rendered curve then ) ?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, it is helpful if the props are visible. Sometimes the tracker will get lost if the ball is obscured, enters a different lighting condition, or changes direction rapidly. If the tracker gets lost, I can pause the program and reset the tracker to the appropriate position.

I can implement optical flow in Python, but I don't really understand it. Explaining how it works is way beyond me.

This video shows how optical flow works:

Notice what happens when the ball passes in front of my face. The tracker is most likely to get lost there because the ball appears to be a blur on those frames.

peterbone - - Parent

What steps follow optical flow? I assume you're first segmenting the flow vectors to find the balls? Are you then using a predictive tracker that can predict the object's position when not detected, such as a Kalman filter? It must be possible for the tracker to know that the balls travel in parabolas when in the air, which would help tracking a lot.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

The tracking program that I wrote is quite simple. It relies on the user to click on an object to be tracked, and then uses optical flow to track the object. There is no detection, that is done by the user. Segmenting flow vectors is not something that I had considered, but I will try to implement that.

I have considered using a Kalman filter, OpenCV has a Kalman filter class, and I am currently researching this. The use of a Kalman filter is probably the best tool to make juggling ball tracking software more robust.

Optical flow is more than adequate for tracking the balls when they are in the air. Most of the tracking problems I encounter are when the ball has a sudden change in velocity as it is caught or thrown.

Tracking juggling balls in highly optimized video is a fairly easy computer vision task, a heuristic approach to solving my tracking problems is to collect video in higher resolution. I am currently working with 1080p30fps video.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Any particular patterns you'd like me to film? I'll try and do this next week.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, can you film 15 catches of 5 ball cascade (from launch to collect)? I have noticed that good jugglers tend to throw the first ball (or maybe two or three balls) a little higher than the average pattern height. Jugglers that are just learning the 5 ball cascade tend to throw the first few balls a little low and then struggle into the pattern.

I want to get video from several jugglers, all juggling the same pattern for the same amount of catches, so that I can compare things like average pattern height, dwell time, height of the first throw vs. the average height of the pattern, syncopation, etc...

Thank you for you interest in the juggling data set.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Sorry for the delay. I was going to film outside just now and then realized my balls are in the gym. Just letting you know I still plan on doing it :)

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

No rush! The juggling data set is a long term project for me.

A couple notes about uploading video:

  • I prefer that you upload the file directly as it comes from the camera to avoid loss of resolution. Don't worry about editing (splicing, cropping, or rotating).
  • Please upload the video to a location where it can be downloaded directly (not Youtube, there is no way to download Youtube videos in full quality).
  • Mention that you allow me to use your video in my juggling data set.
  • You can also email your video to me directly (probably the easiest thing to do) at 'stephen meschke @ gmail . com.' With the spaces removed.

Thank you!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course I read this post while it was already uploading to youtube >.<, so I'll post it here anyway for those interested. It's also on it's way to your email inbox. You can use this video in any way you like, including but not limited to using it in your data set.

Sorry for the terrible terrible quality! I hadn't tried 60fps mode before, at least now I know it is completely useless. If you prefer I can film it again in 30fps, which should be sharp 1080p.
I have a super wide lens and the camera allows me to zoom, probably some kind of digital zoom which made the sharpness even worse, but the lines of the building still don't seem exactly straight. I hope this doesn't skew the data too much.

Anyway, if you have wishes, let me know and I'll film it and send the raw stuff straight to you.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you for sending me your video! Even though the resolution was not great, the contrast between the balls and the rest of the frame was amazing! The balls were very easy to track.

I have used my tracking software to extract the data, here are the results:

Now that I have data from another juggler, I can work on methods to compare your juggling to mine.

Orinoco - - Parent

I'm watching this project with interest.

I'm wondering if professionals working on a synchronised routine would be interested in your software to analyse a video of their routine to easily identify areas where they are out of synch?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Most of the time it is easy to see for the professionals themselves when they are out of synch, no software needed. Perhaps for really precise things, such as isolations, this could be an application. But this software is not for that..

david - - Parent

Excellent, both the juggling and the tracking. I particularly value seeing the start which inspires me to clean up my start to include the whole trough of the curves before the first releases.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you.

I was surprised to find that the act of juggling started quite a while before the first ball was thrown. I'd like to collect data from multiple jugglers to see if everyone does two fake throws before launching the first ball.

Kelhoon - - Parent

I often do several (more than 2) fake throws when starting 5, but launch in to a lot of patterns with 3 straight away.

I tend to do the fake throws for 5 until I "feel" like I have the right rhythm and spacing.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Now for the stuff I'd be curious about:
In long runs, how stable are my throws? Like could you give my pattern a score based on how much the throws diverge from the average of all throws?
In what way do my L and R hand differ? Do they both throw equally high and wide, or how big is the difference?

In the shorter runs, it is completely fine for me if every ball behaves different. Here I don't want to compare throw by throw, but rather run by run. I gave 3 samples of 15 catches, I'd be curious to know if ball 1 of attempt 1 is similar to ball 1 of attempt 2 and 3. etc.

In the future it could be interesting to compare jugglers and their styles too. Average height, dwell time, width, etc.

In all of the scores above I'd like to bring to 0 difference of course, and if there was a tangible number it would be fun to keep track over the years and try to become as much robot like as possible.

Anyway, those are some ideas of what to do with the data :). I hope you find some uses for this. And since seemingly I'm only the second juggler you've got on video: Guys, record some 5b 15 catches! Super easy stuff, right?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I have been working on determining dwell time and throw height. I do eventually want to create some metric that can describe how far a juggling pattern is from perfection. This is an interesting question though, because I don't really know what perfection is in terms of juggling.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I wouldn't steer towards the question of what a perfect throw would be, that can be answered by others over time. You could however determine how far a throw is from your own average, or how far it is from the throws of this one juggler who you think throws pretty perfect.

My thoughts about a perfect throw/pattern can be found here:

peterbone - - Parent

I think that your data request is not specific enough. If you want to compare the same pattern for different jugglers then you should specify exactly what data you want. I think you'd have a lot more response for that. I may be interested in filming something if you have a specific request. I have a nice plain wall outside and some bright balls.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

For the purposes of comparing one juggler to another, it would be best to eliminate as many variables as possible:

It would be easiest to do this at a juggling convention, with one camera setup and an 'x' on the floor for the juggler to stand over.

Until then, if you (or anyone else) would like to have a short clip of juggling tracked and recorded in a spreadsheet, I am more than willing to help.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Come do this next year at the Dutch juggling championships. Plenty of ball jugglers who all believe they have the best 5b cascade, you can help them (dis)proove it and collect data at the same time!

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I made sure to get explicit consent before including you in the Juggling Dataset to avoid future conflict if the analysis proved that your juggling is bad. Looking at my own data, and comparing it to yours I can see that you juggle much better.*

For jugglers that spend more than an hour a day with props in the air, juggling can become part of who they are. Finding out that they are not good at juggling (by some however arbitrary measure) can be a hard pill to swallow.

*I blame it on the balls.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Indeed, sadly, it's just an arbitrary measure... I'm not convinced that my stable juggling is any good until I get close to your 7b records ;)

Do I see correctly that this graph only displays the height of the balls over time? Variation in width of a throw and horizontal spacing would also be important to determine if your juggling is "clean".

Our graphs look very different. I assume the horizontal scale is based on the amount of frames? It wouldn't be too hard to adjust for actual time, no?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

From the video with the overlay it seems like my two hands have opposite problems:

My right hand makes throws from a consistent horizontal location, but the throws vary in width. My left hand makes throws from different locations, but somehow manages to correct the width in such a way that the balls all land at exactly the same spot! I could have never noticed this without the visual aid. Can you check if this is also true in the longer runs? Can you think of a way of graphing out the data of the x axis in a way that this would be readable?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course, the same kind of graph but downwards, that could work...

(if only I could edit posts to include the thoughts I have seconds after posting, this thread wouldn't need to become a mess)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Also, the color coding is different in the graph and in the video. Sticking to one consistent order would make it easier to analize.

Sorry for the overkill of input, I'm just excited and curious to study more of my juggling this way :D

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, these graphs plot height on the Y-axis and time on the X-axis. I would like to include the horizontal position of the balls, but that would mean graphing in three dimensions, which I have only a little experience with (I'll try it in Matplotlib for Python, but if anyone has suggestions...).

The graph of your pattern is more stretched out because yours if filmed in 60fps and mine is filmed in 30fps. I am working on a way to normalize the data so that different frame rates can be compared.

I see that you have replied to your own comment several times! Glad to see you are excited about this. I am excited about this too, but as this is a long term project for me, I am going to take my time and try to produce high quality data and avoid publishing things only to have to retract them later.

unigamer - - Parent

Hello Stephen, I've been following this thread closely, it's a great project. I'll try to get some footage of myself juggling soon and send it to you.

I haven't got round to using Matplotlib yet because I've had access to Matlab while I am a student. I have done a fair amount of plotting, animating and other stuff. If you're willing to send me an example csv file of some juggling, maybe a column for each ball and each row being a discrete time step then I'd love to have a go at plotting some stuff. I can just send whatever I come up with to you, the Matlab code won't be directly useful because I suspect the syntax might be a bit different but it should be a nice little prototype.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

The data for my pattern can be found here:

@Stephen: Until a 3d graphic is readable, 2 separate 2d graphics would also help to analize the juggling

unigamer - - Parent

Sorry Daniel, I wasn't paying attention to who-is-who there so my previous message was directed to you. Thanks for a link to the data, I've had a quick play around with it.

My working folder:

My first quick test plot:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Don't worry, this is Stephens data file anyway (of my pattern)

Looks interesting, I guess I'd have to view it in 3d to be able to see if it is analisable...

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Nice graph! Did you smooth the data?

I made a .gif of the same graph using Python and Matplotlib, here's a link: Small: 3mb, Medium: 5mb, Large: 9mb.

You can find the code used to generate these (and lots more) in the Python Tutorials folder of the Juggling Dataset.

Dee - - Parent

It would be interesting to see how this relates to what Joost Dessing was doing at EJC2014 (a brief description was in Scott Seltzer's general review of EJC2014).

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oh cool, thanks for that link. It must've slipped past me at the time.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you for that interesting link, I look forward to reading his publications. It seems that Dr. Joost Dressing and I have different aims for the data that we collect.

My goal for the Juggling Dataset is to create a dataset that others (who are so statistically inclined) can use to study juggling. I want the data to be as accessible as possible, similar to how the creators of Kaggle have made the Titanic Dataset accessible; by hosting the data online with a thorough description and several tutorials in multiple programming languages.

I assume Dr. Dressing collects data to prove or disprove a hypothesis and then publishes those results for academic prestige.

Early on in the creation of this data set I realized that creating a data set is difficult. There are several steps, and each of which requires specialized knowledge, software, and equipment to do well: juggling, video recording of juggling, computer vision analysis of juggling video, formatting data and hosting it online, writing tutorials and descriptions for the data...all of this has to happen before a hypothesis can be tested.

Fields like machine learning and data science are really starting to take off! By creating the Juggling Data set, I hope to leverage the machine learning practitioners and data scientists skills to advance the knowledge of juggling. They are nothing without data, but likely lack the ability to collect it. There are a lot of data addicts, but few data set creators.

Juggler Share -

I'm a new juggling website and would love some suggestions about what you think about my website and any possibilities you see with it. I'm not going to stop, so good suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Best Regards,
-Juggler Share
instagram: @JugglerShare

vazonun - - Parent

My honest opinion is that you're heading in too many directions at the same time. The name Juggler Share is good for a blog, forum, how-to guides... But I fail to see how the shop side of it can be incorporated too.
When I shop for juggling props, I either travel to an actual walk-in juggling store, or go to a very large reputable online store that supply the very wide range of products, that maybe the shop I have been to can't supply, and this is just my situation... but at no point have I ever considered visiting Amazon for my props. I think that the shop page is quite intrusive, I don't think I have ever bought something from a website that also doubles as something else, in this case a blog (This is all my personal opinion).
The blog side of it is going to be quite interesting, many like to just have an insight of another person's life.
I quite like the featured juggler part. But my question is: Are you only going to show professionals, and those who can be considered "very good jugglers" or are you also going to include those who are still getting to grips with juggling?
For example a young person, after learning how to do doubles with 3 clubs, wanting to share it with the world, and their favourite prop is beach style clubs. I would love to see a positive attitude towards those learning new tricks.
So overall I think you have parts of multiple goals, and mixing them together may not be the best way forward, don't dive too deep. Keep going, you can have something great.

Juggler Share - - Parent

Thank you for the feedback! I will look into if I should keep my juggling shop embedded into my main website. I'm also constantly expanding my juggling store's inventory. Currently I've only posted my favorite Amazon deals, but I also have access to EBay listings as well as the jugglegear store. I'll be adding my favorite products at the best prices to every update of my website. I would absolutely like to cater more to less experienced jugglers and I will look into creating a featured page geared toward more amateur jugglers than professional. Thanks again for your suggestions and insight. I appreciate it.
Best Regards,

unigamer - - Parent

I'm always interested in reading quality juggling related articles but they have to be that: quality. When there is ejuggle from IJA, classic magazines like Kascade for free etc there is plenty of choice. I have no problem with adverts being included on pages but I think calling what you have a 'shop' is a little bit disingenuous and a bit of a turn off. I have bought plenty of stuff through affiliate links that matches a specific article's content so I think removing the shop and just using the affiliate links carefully placed around the site will be more successful. Not plastered everywhere but placed near the content.

Juggler Share - - Parent

Hey I really appreciate this comment! I didn't know it was viewed that way and now that I do I'll try to come off less disingenuous. I do still want to have some type of storefront with less overhead than purchasing all forms of juggling equipment and carrying an inventory, but I will tread carefully with you comment in mind. And I will try carefully placing links next to rich content. Thank you.
-Juggler Share

Orinoco - - Parent

Sorry, this is going to be harsh, but I offer this with the best of intentions.

I have no clear idea of what you are offering or what you are trying to achieve.

Your homepage just tells me that this is a website for jugglers to share? Share what? Props, cake, bodily fluids? What exactly are you wanting people to share? The text on the about page asks for videos of individual tricks, so are you trying to compile a database of trick videos? What are you able to provide that a simple search of YouTube or JTV does not? Are you going to add technical details for each trick? If so what can you offer that does not? Where do these videos go? They are not on the front page (so why would I submit a video if it is not going to get pride of place), are they going to end up on the tutorials or featured jugglers page? Do I get to choose or are you acting as a curator?

Not that I consider the Edge homepage to be a shining example but here I simply present everything that a user can do on the Edge so that they can get straight to what they want to do. There is no marketing copy or any explanation of what the site is for to waste their time. If you need to explain what you are doing, you are not presenting what you are doing well enough. Don't use the home page to explain what you do, use it to do what you do.

The second link after the home link is to your store page which tells me that this is your most important feature & that you are trying to be a webstore. As has already been mentioned Amazon is also the last place I'd check for buying juggling kit but that's a different issue. At the moment you present some tiny pictures of kit with not even a minimally adequate descriptions of the product. Amazon provides a complex array of customer reviews & ratings, the ability to ask questions about the product & so on to help people make a purchase. What are you offering that Amazon isn't? Why should people visit your store to find Amazon products when they could go to Amazon direct & get immediate access to Amazon's considerable store features?

Reading the text on your website the main thing your site offers appears to be affiliate marketing, which means I won't touch it with a barge pole tied to the end of another barge pole. 'Affiliate marketing' is a tainted phrase that when applied to every page of a site I equate with 'regurgitated valueless content'. I'm not wholly against affiliate schemes though, I use an affiliate scheme here on the Edge too. Can you find it? I'm not that bothered if you do because my main aim that overrides everything else is to provide juggling related content, anything that gets in the way of that is a barrier that needs to be removed. Be up front about the scheme, tell your audience in dollar amounts or percentages precisely what you (& who if it is going towards submitters) get out of it.

It's not clear whether the affiliate schemes benefit you or the submitter. The text on the about page says the submitter but the code on your store page says you do although I guess this is because you are the sole contributor so far. If it is the submitter then I assume you pick up their referral code through the link they provide on the submit form? This is not explicitly explained on the form.

You also mention YouTube views as an incentive for posting YouTube videos. What potential audience can you offer a video producer over all the other options? Yes I know it would only take a minute to fill out your form, but that is a lifetime on the internet, why should anyone bother? Posting a link here will be seen by between 1000-2000 people a month, posting on Juggling Rock will be seen by several thousand people a day. Just posting their video to their personal FB walls will generate ~50 views from their friends for even an average juggler. What does your website offer that will pull people away from the powerful black hole that is Facebook?

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into building a framework that will make money first & hope that content will follow. Speaking from many years of experience of working on the web this is absolutely backwards. You need to provide a useful service or meaningful content first then add the money making stuff later. The internet is a fantastic place for giving away information for free. It is certainly not an easy place to make money. Targeting the highly frugal & intelligent juggling community is a tough market to crack too.

If your aim is to make money I think you will be disappointed. Your approach is too spammy & you are not offering anything of value in return. As I mentioned when you first asked for an invitation here I cautioned against over marketing, can I please say that goes more so for the BJC FB group, none of your posts have been BJC related which is the point of that group.

If you just want to provide something to the juggling community fantastic! Think about that unique thing you can offer, start small & iterate from there. The Edge consisted of two slightly different plain text threaded message boards when I first showed someone else. What you see today is the gradual adding and just as importantly subtracting of features over a number of years.

For inspiration you might benefit from these words by Justin Jackson.

I know all this is a bit severe, but be assured I wouldn't have bothered to write all of the above if I didn't believe you have good intentions.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

For what it's worth: I agree with every word of advice Orinoco wrote you, and considered writing a similar post.

I'm happy that there are people willing to improve the web interactions and experience for jugglers. I hope you will find a way to channel your efforts into something nice :)

Juggler Share - - Parent

I hold what you have to say in high regard Daniel Simu. In my eyes you're a leading figure in the juggling community. Your opinions will always be valued. Thank you.

Juggler Share - - Parent

Thank you Orinoco, maybe another person would take your post harsh, but I've been trying to revise my website based on your advice. I have good intentions with my affiliate store. I intend to roll the commissions into sponsorship of new featured jugglers. The purpose of the website is to feature new jugglers and I have revised my home page and about info. accordingly. I also put the intentions of my affiliate store in the store description. It's to support featured jugglers. I will do that through sponsorship, whether it's free gear or discounts. I'm hitting up juggling retailers and manufacturers as I type to you. I want my website to be somewhere new jugglers trying to make a name for themselves want to go. I appreciate your well written post here and its insights. This response back is shorter, but I hope that you'll see my website has been revised because of what you had to say and I will work on doing a better job in the future to come. I will focus on bringing new jugglers into my videos and getting sponsors for them. So far I have only posted professional and top ranked jugglers. My market is new and up-and-coming jugglers. I will begin to focus my efforts on that market, and I will continue to revise and provide content that is valuable to jugglers. Thank you.
-Juggler Share

Orinoco - - Parent

That is already a great improvement, well done. The site now has a much clearer purpose. Narrowing down your target audience should hopefully make it a lot easier for you to build the site into a useful resource.

Not sure I can be much help with your target audience, I don't have any demographic data for users on the Edge, but those of us who hang out on this forum tend to be a little more towards the let's say 'mature' end of the spectrum. The younger users of the Edge tend to use the records & logs sections of this site. All the young teenagers I know don't really use the web at all they almost exclusively use WhatsApp & other messaging apps.

Juggler Share - - Parent

Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it. Your forum is a wealth of resources when it comes to learning what adds value to the juggling community and what doesn't.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Good improvements so far. Keep at it :)

Juggler Share - - Parent

Thank you for the support! I really appreciate it Daniel Simu. I wish you all the best.

Nikita -

Hey guys!

I just recently joined the forum and I have few questions about record logging.
Hope you can help me :)

So the thing I'm confused with, is order of throws in siteswap notation.

Lets say I want to record 56 throws of 12345 (we all know this trick, and there is no questions that it is called 12345)
So I record 56 3b 12345.
My actual throws started with 3. Like 3451234512... So why do I record 12345 instead of 34512 then ?
12345 and 34512 considered different tricks by site engine, but they actually are the same one.
And how would I record this trick with additional 6 throw ? Is it 1234560 or 0123456 ?
Do we have any rules of resolving situations like this ?

Also, do you count 2 and 0 as a catch ?
And is there a way to tag people in posts ?

lukeburrage - - Parent

The convention among jugglers is to typically write down or say a siteswap starting with the highest value. Sure, you might get into the pattern with different throws, or start the loop at a different place, but for clear and easy communication, it's nice if everyone sticks to the same order for the same pattern.

This means 97531 is always easy to recognise, rather than each time the reader having to decode that 31975 and 19753 and 75319 are all the same pattern.

In your case, you are wrong that there is no question that your pattern is called 12345, as you yourself then explain. The convention is to call it 51234.

As for counting catches, with running a siteswap pattern it's often easier to count the cycles of the pattern. For example, here is a video of the b97531 record. Catches aren't mentioned, but "151 rounds" is:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I've never heard of this convention. 51234 sounds strange. Why not start a siteswap at its easiest point of entry? If it is a ground state siteswap, it's always obvious. 45123 makes much more sense to me than 51234. Obviously it's going to be 97531 and not 19753
Besides, how do you solve for siteswaps with recurring high numbers? 777171 could be written in 4 correct ways then?

I'm not an expert on states, but the excited state pattern 891 doesn't start with the highest number either. I believe that the easiest entry is 778, wheras the easiest entry for 918 is 7788?

"and there is no questions that it is called 12345" I think siteswap wise it should be called 45123, but 12345 is the obvious style choice. Which indeed makes counting tricky. You could link 45123 to the 12345 trick in the record section, claim that your version is the correct one and ask the current record holders for clarification of their counting method.
For myself I would also count cycles, not catches, but I understand that in the record section that doesn't work... I'm sure someone who uses the record section actively can comment on this?

peterbone - - Parent

The convention is actually to write the siteswap in numerical order. So 777171 would be the only correct way to write it. I assume that the reason is that it was convenient for early siteswap generators to write them in that format without having to work out the states. Writing them with highest values first is most likely to result in a low state start, unless you work out the states.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Well, Peter already answered this. It's the highest numerical value if converted into a single number. 777171 starts with 777 which is higher than 771, 717, 171 or 717.

As for this: "I'm not an expert on states, but the excited state pattern 891 doesn't start with the highest number either. I believe that the easiest entry is 778, wheras the easiest entry for 918 is 7788?"

Let's write those down.

Into 891 is 778? So that's 778891891891...

Into 918 is 7788? So that's 778891891891...

Yeah, you've just come up with the same thing!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course they're both the same thing! But that still doesn't tell you whether you should write 891 or 918, right? And my generator & jugglewiki do call it 891, not 918...

Orinoco - - Parent

I've never heard of that convention either. I've only ever heard 12345 called 12345. Searching for 12345 vs the other permutations on rec.juggling & the Edge (both the forum & the records section), 12345 is by far the most prevalent.

If two siteswap records are entered into the Edge records system that are a rotation of each other & provided you have built up enough 'experience' by entering records you will have the option to merge those two tricks together. Once merged you can enter the trick whichever way you like but they will be listed & compared together.

At present no-one has entered a permutation of 12345 to link to.

Maria - - Parent

I have heard of that convention, and I would certainly write any 4-handed siteswaps that way (I believe that most of the passers do that).

When logging my juggling practice, however, I usually write ground-state siteswaps in the order I do them, so 51234 would be written as 45123, since that way I can say that I did 4 rounds and back to cascade or something like that. (While if I wrote it as 12345 or 51234, the same number of actual throws and catches would only contain 3 rounds and the first and last throws would count as transition throws...).

I don't log siteswap records so it doesn't matter in that case, but if I did, I'd feel that doing for example ...3333345123451234512333333.... would be 15 catches of 45123, but only 13 catches of 12345. (If I do active 2s, otherwise I would not count them.)

Someone might also have noticed that I sometimes log both 55050 and 50505 in the same practice session... Or 552 and 525. In that case, it's just different starts and has little to do with how to write siteswaps and more to do with me wanting to see in my log entry that I actually did two different starts, but being too lazy to use a lot of words. (55050 would be starting with one club in one hand and two in the other, and throwing from the hand with one club first. 50505 would be starting with 3 in the same hand.)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Same here .. heard of that convention and use it for logging records, but in a given context write them as then makes more sense.

The Void - - Parent

I've heard of that convention and yet also commonly heard patterns referred to in ascending order, eg 12345. (Also the convention for writing multiplex throws also follows the "highest possible number" convention. eg [543], not [345]. I learned that from Sean Gandini.)

lukeburrage - - Parent

In the single case of the pattern 12345, yes, that order is the most common by far. It feels like the natural way of saying it. However, it's in a class of patterns where throw values increase by one until it drops to the first number again, and in most other cases, the higher number is said first. Examples:

423 not 234
534 not 345
645 not 456

It's only because it feels natural to say the number 1 first that people do so! And it *is* so satisfying to say it that way! In conversation, I've no problem with saying 12345. I think it's more important to have clear communication between two people than to follow strict rules.

But in the case of making a list or database entry, I think it's best to stick with the convention. And if there's any confusion, explain the convention, not make exceptions for something that just happens to scratch a weird cognitive itch.

The Void - - Parent


Kelhoon - - Parent

What if others (like me) find it easier to start it with the 3 ? i.e. 34512

There are many patterns that people don't start the same way, so the easy way for you isn't necessarily the easy way for others, hence the need for the convention as discussed by Peter and Luke to help everyone recognise a given siteswap from all it's possible cycles.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yes, this is the whole point. When ordering lists, the person reading it should know where to look, and also not think they are missing anything, and also not worrying that two things in different places are duplicates. This is why bookshops and libraries have settled on (within sections) ordering books by the author's second name, and then the first name, and then by book title/series title and number. If you went into a bookshop, and some books were ordered by the title, and some by the author name, and some by the colour of the spine, everyone would be super annoyed.

In the case of siteswaps in a list, or in a database like the records section, the obvious thing to do is order them by A: object number and then by B: numerical value.

This is important because, just looking at the siteswap out of context, it's impossible for most people to know the state of the pattern, or how they would transition into it from the cascade or fountain, or any number of other things.

And it's really important not to have 777171, 771717, 717177, 171777, 717771 an 177717 ALL listed in different places, or else the list would be unmanageable! You'd also have to have 441, 414 and 144 listed. And every other iteration of every other pattern, just in case another juggler liked starting on a different beat or had a different transition into the patter,

If someone is confused, it's much better to explain the convention to that person (eg. "in the book shop we order by author surname") than it is to accommodate their preference at the expense of making the system more complicated and confusing for everyone else.

Orinoco - - Parent

With regards to counting numbers. Don't count 0s, & only count 2s if they are active (thrown); if you are just holding the prop don't count it as a catch.

There currently isn't a way to tag people in a post, I don't think traffic is really high enough to warrant the feature? If you just type someone's name in all capitals I'm sure they'll get the message.

Nikita - - Parent

Thank you, Orinoco.

Not counting 0 makes and passive 2's makes sense. I just realized than I counted number of cycles and multiplied it by number of digits in siteswap. But it turned out to be wrong.

Taging people look nice. As I see it. Just Highlighted name makes it clear to random reader that message has direct recipient. It also would allow to send emails to tagged people if they want it, for example. I don't think everyone read forum from end to end. But it is minor.

I'm much more interested in resolving my siteswap issue.
You mentioned an option to merge two tricks together. I have not found info about it anywhere, could you please comment on it ?
If there is a possibility to merge tricks and make two different entries behave like one trick would really solve it.
But also may be i't is possible to pre process siteswaps programmatically to make all versions of one trick recorded with same string. (like if you enter 315 it is still shows up as 531)
I'm not sure if it is a right way.

peterbone - - Parent

Go to any trick in the records section and look at the bottom of the page for "Is this trick the same as another? Link them together". However, based on what Orin said earlier it may not be available unless you've added a lot of records.

Orinoco - - Parent

...& that link will appear if you've logged more than 10 records. This is just an arbitrary threshold so that linking is only handled by people who are at least a little familiar with the records system. I couldn't remember what the threshold was when I posted earlier so just had to look up the code!

Nikita - - Parent

Okay, that explains why I have not found it :)

Nikita -

Hi everyone!

Glad to join your community, hope to find and share some value on juggling edge.

Now you have one more juggler from Russia here along with Ilia Poliakov.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Welcome! I'm always happy to hear this forum expands beyond UK borders :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi & welcome!

find and share some value .. care to specify (or do you mean "in general") ?

[ Ilya Poliakov .. yeah, I saw his admirably huge repertoire and records, and sometimes he smalltalks :o] ]

Nikita - - Parent

I mean in general :)
Value of knowledge and motivation, you know.

Orinoco -

Does anyone know anything about Annual Juggling Convention Ltd? It was the company that the cheques (remember them?) were made payable to for the BJCs in 1993, 1994 & 1995. This was a bit before my time in the community.

The company was created 1992-11-09 & dissolved 1998-12-01 according to Companies house (can't deep link so company number is 02763385). When I first saw the dissolution date I thought it might've been related to the 1997 festival making a financial loss, but it turns out the company was not used for that event.

With the regular clamour for a persistent company to run the BJC through I think it's interesting that it has already been done for a limited time & wondered if there is any story behind it.

charlieh - - Parent

If you Google the company number you can find out a lot more (there are various services that give you more free info than Companies House, I often use these to check out if my company's clients are real or chancers or both): . I recognise a few of these names: Ken (Pretentious) Farquhar who is Norwich-based, Winston of the Curious Eyebrows (was Manchester) and Will Chamberlain who went on to run Belfast Community Circus. You can also see that the company itself was incorporated in 1970 which may seem odd but it may be a 'shelf' company created specifically to be used (and renamed) in the future via an incorporation service (or it could just be a date record issue, 1st Jan 1970 being zero in some date numbering systems). This seems to agree with the timings of the BJCs in 1994 (Manchester) and 1995 (Norwich). You could ask them if you ever meet them (Ken has been known to drop into Bungay occasionally) but I'd guess someone created a company for a BJC and passed it on to the next organisers for a couple of years before whoever organised the next one decided they wanted their own, for whatever reason.

AFAIK the rationale for *not* having a continued company structure is that if BJC X makes a massive loss then it can go bankrupt without passing on the debt to BJC X+1. Not great for any suppliers of course, but then that's between them and the organisers of BJC X, and it's nothing to do with the organisers of BJC X+1 assuming they're a completely different bunch of people. Having never been foolish/brave enough to organise a BJC I don't really know!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

That argument for not having a company seems reasonable, but why not keep a company until it makes a loss? Having a company that you need to shut down after 5 years sounds better than having to create a company every year. But then again, I don't have a clue how these things work in the UK.

In the Netherlands we've had our own foundation company since 20 years now, and that seems to work fine...

lukeburrage - - Parent

In the case of the French Juggling Convention losing money one year and going bankrupt, the following year had problems setting up a new company with the same product and many of the same people. Their problem was that the convention returned to the same city regularly (Toulouse) and it was hard for them to pretend the new convention company had nothing to do with the previous one that lost money.

For the BJC and EJC where a new team, country or city is in charge each year it's less of a problem setting up a short term company. If a BJC company operates nationally for years and many different cities, it's hard to pretend that a new company set up to do the same thing after the old one lost money isn't the same thing.

Orinoco - - Parent

...& as the history builds up over time keeping up the 'pretense' is only going to get harder. There are now 3 sites that the BJC has visited more than once. However, I'm not sure whether a history of short term companies is a bad thing these days, or has ever been a bad thing for that matter. The BJC is certainly not unique in this practice, the film industry for example seems to set up new companies on a per film basis too. Where I work we often have fun trying to match the sometimes cryptic company name to a film currently in production.

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Looking at the names and dates the last set of directors seem to be the organisers of BJC 1996 in Edinburgh - which had financial problems.

Orinoco -

I've been doing a lot of BJC research recently. Risky in Pink were a trio of club jugglers/table divers from NoFit State Circus who performed at the BJC in 1991. You can see a bit of their act in this old video which amused me greatly.

Daniel Simu - - Parent


Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Saw that routine live at NFS HQ in Splott :)

Did you know it was choreographed/devised/consulted on by Johnny Hutch?

charlieh - - Parent

Ah there's a name to conjure with - an acrobat of the old school who was apparently spotted by a passing troupe doing a handstand on a chimney where he was working as a builder...could still do backflips at the age of 70 I believe.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Great acts. Very very lively, enjoyable & entertaining.

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