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Daniel Simu -

Charlie Chaplin juggler

I saw an old TV clip of a female juggler I didn't recognise at first, but then I wondered if the was perhaps the woman who opens her act with a Charlie Chaplin impression. I wanted to look her up, but forgot her name and google failed to help me, who is she again? Isn't she the wife of another famous juggler?

The Void - - Parent

I think you're thinking of Natalie Enterline.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thanks, that was indeed who I meant, and now I'm pretty sure that she is not the juggler I saw in my clip. My brain confused hat spinning (with a stick) with hat & baton, haha

Mike Moore -

Strengthening joints?

When I work on inverted sprung cascade[1], my elbows hurt the next day, even though at the time the pattern feels relaxed and lovely. I've not pushed things lately, but I'd really like to work on this (and some related patterns) harder.

Does anyone have any experience with prehab for elbows? The range of motion certainly isn't straining my flexibility, but would stretching help anyway[2]?

[1] - this is what ISC looks like, so you can see the particular movements:
[2] - looking for something more than a "it couldn't hurt!" answer here.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Try not to damage your elbows. I've had a recurring sore elbow for the past few weeks.. wasn't sure why, perhaps it's something juggling related. I have been practicing hi-lo inv box recently (still not running it but getting closer). My pain is at the top of my forearm, opposite side of elbow. I had tennis elbow a few years back, it took months to heal! A tennis elbow pressure strap, regular hard self-massaging to the painful area, and Ibuprofen helps alot. Ice is good too. ISC looks really crazy, I don't think many people can do that!

Mike Moore - - Parent

The pain your describing sounds like the same injury I've had a few times, practicing similar patterns. The first time, when I didn't know the warning signs, I was out for ~2-3 months.

Perhaps it's time to invest in a tennis elbow pressure strap. Thanks for the thoughts.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

In this trick you're placing sideways stress on a hinge joint. That's never any good, and I don't think you can do much to strenghten that joint.
What you probably can do is stretch and train the muscles around your shoulder to more actively and easily make the outward rotation. A physio/sports therapist should be able to guide you in that!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Interesting, thanks. I've heard other box jugglers talk about shoulders hurting from practicing these types of things, but I've never had any shoulder issues (I guess I'm lucky with those joints!). I'll be sure to be cognizant of that potential injury, though.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I don't think you're potentially injuring your shoulder, I think your shoulder should be capable of taking the impact which is now getting on your elbow. Stretching the shoulder might help it do that!

Lift your arm to the front, and then bend the elbow with your forearm going up, so you're making pretty much the position you hold in the inverted sprung cascade. Now try to rotate your fore arm outwards while keeping the elbow in the same spot in space. This movement comes from the shoulder, not the elbow. However, if the shoulder is incabable of making this move easily, you might put some stress on the elbow joint sideways, which it can't deal with very well. By becoming more flexible, and/or stronger so that you can make the rotation more actively, you could release the stress on the elbow.

Maybe lookup "external shoulder rotation"

Mike Moore - - Parent

Ah, thanks for setting me straight, I had completely misinterpreted.

I've looked up external shoulder rotation, thanks.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Interesting thread. [ #injuries #anatomy #physio #elbow #shoulder ]

7b_wizard -

practise versus ``talent´´

(no matter which level you're on - just started or world champion ..)
How much do you think that all your skills are (to which part) a result of practise or hard ``work´´, perseverance, or else
(to which part) did they ``come to you´´ by a natural preference for juggling (or object manipulation or artistry oror) or by a natural predisposition or a love for juggling making learning easier (than e.g. for the average juggler, or e.g. than learning another skill or art of motion or sportive activity)?

  1. no talent or predisposition or preference - it's 100% hard work or perseverant regular practise or strong will only got me there.
  2. some talent or predisposition or preference - but mostly practise or work or perseverance or strong will.
  3. a good portion of talent or predisposition or preference - but somewhat more practise or work or perseverance or strong will.
  4. about equal.
  5. somewhat more talent or predisposition or preference - but it couldn't have grown & developed without a notable and regular amount of practise or work or perseverance or strong will.
  6. notably more talent or predisposition or preference - but it won't yield without a bit of practise or coping with or some will to improve.
  7. I learn extremely fast and don't see upper limits below highest levels. I think, I'm a ``natural´´.
  8. other \ depends \ easy for s'swaps and few prop tricks, but hard for numbers \ easy for basic patterns, but hard for tricks

A few aspects helping to answer:
Even Gatto said sth like, there's no such thing talent on his level or for him - it was all hard hard work.
Think of what you can't do even though you think you should.
Was your decision or how you got to juggling totally intrinsic (=absolutely "yours" and the only thing to do, ``necessary´´ in a way) or could it just aswell have been something else, another hobby or activity.
Do you see yourself improving and learning much faster than others (that's the point, not learning easy stuff fast only).
Do others admire the speed you improve or learn (while you yourself might not have noticed).

And a question that I'm interested in:
Do you think or have you experienced a hidden talent waking up after already having juggled for a good while? Do you think that's possible to ``wake up the natural inside you´´?

This is a competition thread which ran from 30th Sep 2017 to 10th Oct 2017. View results.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I myself am somewhere between 2 and 3, but sill blundering a real lot when not yet warmed up or when not concentrating, also failing over long phases, makes me say "2", even though I hope for it to become easier, maybe the natural skill inside waking up, some day when I've reached my goals and then not having to so much do at the limit anymore. I don't think I'd have gotten where I am without the inner decision to dedicate to the 7b cascade, which is maybe rather a preference than ``natural talent´´, who knows.

7b_wizard - - Parent

If i get 13 catches of 9b today or 7b > 100 c, I'll change to "5" ;o])

Daniel Simu - - Parent

You're asking multiple questions at once, which makes it hard to answer correctly...

I think I have some but little natural talent in learning object manipulation skills. However I am extremely predisposed to love juggling which makes it incredibly easy to spend countless hours on practice. So effectively my natural affection for juggling makes me a good juggler?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yes, [>>"multiple wording"<<], wanted to include a wide range of viewpoints for "talent\\not talent".

Okay, that makes it a bit difficult ("little natural talent, but love for juggling making practise easy"),
but, as the question is scaled along "talent vs. practise", I'd say, your description says, that your love for juggling sort of enables or helps you to make up for little natural talent. But you don't sound, like new skills ``come to you´´ or that your natural afffection for juggling makes learning (notably) easier than for the average juggler or than another activity - at least not in a way that would spare you to still having to practise a whole lot. That would be a clear "2", I'd say.

So, @ all, if in doubt, feel free to read the options as roughly ..

1. 0-5% talent - 95-100% practise (hard work only)
2. 5-25% talent - 75-95% practise
3. 25-45% talent - 55-75% practise
4. 45-55% talent - 45-55% practise (equal)
5. 55-75% talent - 25-45% practise
6. 75-95% talent - 5-25% practise
7. 95-100% talent - 0-5% practise (pure talent, just do it and it will naturally succeed in ridiculously short time)

Orinoco - - Parent

I put myself down as a number 2. I think I'm very similar to Daniel, I got good at juggling because when I first started I enjoyed it so much I did nothing but practice. Perhaps because of my enjoyment I didn't realise it was 'hard work'.

peterbone - - Parent

Agreed. The choices are made a bit complex by the 'love of juggling' part, which I think makes the vote lose focus on the nature vs nurture argument. I think that any natural aptitude is very small, but I voted 2 for the same reason as you.

Interesting Gatto's comment that he thinks it was all hard work. Where does that quote come from? On his own forum years ago he said that he believes he has some kind of natural advantage and sees things "in slow motion". Although I don't believe that at all I do think that believing it helped him a lot.

Scott Seltzer - - Parent

I always thought that seeing things in slow motion is acquired. When you first start attempting 5 balls it feels frantic and crazy fast and impossible. After a while (perhaps a few years or more), it can seem slow and simple. Gravity obviously hasn't changed but your perception has.

Sometime after I was pretty solid with 5 balls, I remember when it really clicked even more and became truly effortless. I fondly remember that as my juggling nirvana.

7b_wizard - - Parent

That 'love of juggling' wording is due to me trying to exclude, that ``talent´´ (which anyway is hard to seize as notion) need be determined by some genetic predisposition, let alone by a distinct ``juggling gene´´. And I tried to allow, that a wunderkind could feel as a natural without a need to have genetic evidence, without the need to have been ``born as juggler´´, just with love of juggling, then. Also, I wanted to avoid any discussion about whether ``(genetic) talent´´ even exists or not.

That Gatto statement is nothing like a citation with a source; I had it in mind, read it somewhere - it might be a mere rumour or misinterpretation (alas, I have no idea, where I got that from).

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'd put me somewhere between 5-6. When I can dredge up enough time to practice daily, I feel my progress goes by leaps and bounds, and it seems like I could be /very/ good if I were to try to make a career of juggling (or prioritize it higher).

There are certainly people who pick things up faster than me, but that population seems to be somewhere between 10-25 % of jugglers I know. There's probably some selection bias in there.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I'm a 2. I find it very difficult to understand juggling patterns and I've always learned everything slower than most. My love of juggling has helped me keep up the practicing.

Marvin - - Parent

This poll has now ended. The results are:

  1.   no talent or predisposition or preference - it's 100% hard work or perseverant regular practise or strong will only got me there. (0 votes)
  2.   some talent or predisposition or preference - but mostly practise or work or perseverance or strong will. (6 votes)
  3.   a good portion of talent or predisposition or preference - but somewhat more practise or work or perseverance or strong will. (1 vote)
  4.   about equal. (0 votes)
  5.   somewhat more talent or predisposition or preference - but it couldn't have grown & developed without a notable and regular amount of practise or work or perseverance or strong will. (0 votes)
  6.   notably more talent or predisposition or preference - but it won't yield without a bit of practise or coping with or some will to improve. (1 vote)
  7.   I learn extremely fast and don't see upper limits below highest levels. I think, I'm a ``natural´´. (0 votes)
  8.   other \ depends \ easy for s'swaps and few prop tricks, but hard for numbers \ easy for basic patterns, but hard for tricks (1 vote)

The Void -

Juggling by numbers - Numberphile.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

He taught me 441 at a juggling convention in the 90s.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Enjoyed both the video, and the number of people/places that have brought it to me attention today!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Wonderful! I had never seen Colin before, great to see he can explain it so well! I hope this brings a couple new jugglers into the scene :)

Daniel Simu -

Flashing rules

In a fluke of boredom I watched Josh Horton flash 6 iPhones in slow motion. I noticed that the first catch is made before the last prop is released, which fairly obvious in retrospect but I had never thought about it before.

However, this brings me to a new question: Would I be allowed to set an official record flash with an even amount of objects if I offset the right and left hand timing even more? Like, for example, if I were to flash 6 balls.. first throw 2 on the right, and only then join in with the left hand? Would this make the juggling easier (probably) and has anyone experimented with this pattern?

Thanar - - Parent


A flash occurs for a given number of objects in an explicitly stated pattern when the number of catches made is at least the number of objects being juggled. The first catch to be counted cannot be made until all props but one, or one per team member, have been thrown. All props must be thrown by the juggler(s) and caught in the order and to the hand dictated by the chosen pattern. Multiplexing is not allowed." - Juggling Information Services Committee on Numbers Juggling (JISCON) Numbers Juggling Rules & Definitions

Based on the above definition (used for records tracked by JISCON, Wikipedia and the Juggle Wiki), Josh Hortons 6 iPhone flash is a valid flash. I'd bet most flashes have the first catch made before the last prop is released, since that's the "normal" way to do a flash.

Based on the above definition, if you offset the left hand timing even more, so that a prop is caught while two props have not yet been thrown, then that catch would not count. Your flash attempt would officially have only 5 catches, and not be a flash.

Mike Moore - - Parent

The world needs more people like Thanar.

Daniel Simu -

EP10 of JJ with Manuel Mittasch

The 10th episode of Juggle Jabber! I didn't think there would be so many when I started, but now I can't wait to work on the next 10! There might not have been a single interview ever without the Edge, so thank you guys :)

As always, comments and feedback are welcome in any form!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi, I happened to just watch the Triolar I'view that was still on my to watch list - funny atmosphere (You did well as ``Pascha´´ - "You girls do the talking, I'm meanwhile in charge of the goodies on the table and will interfere only when a topic is done."). I didn't acoustically understand it all, though, .. I think most people interviewed aren't aware, a far away micro needs an effort to speak clear, .. half sentences are being swallowed still well understood in the room, but not by the micro that doesn't get the full volume, not the full sound-spectrum of the voice - maybe it's an option to consider, putting a micro near the talk, on the table or so. The Matthew Tiffany one was great, very interesting. I'm very much looking foreward to the Gilligan one. I hope, you get more feedback.

JonPeat -

The Berlin Juggling Convention - Review

I went to the Berlin Convention.
Lots of things happened.
I wrote about them here:

Cheers, Jon

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thanks for making me feel like I was there!

Mïark - - Parent

Did "Herlene" ask you to spell her name like that?

JonPeat - - Parent

... I don't know what you mean...

Thanar -

Here is a playlist of the records broken or set in the World Record Challenge at the Guelph Juggling Fest 2017.

3 ball lazies: 2 minutes and 7 seconds by Matan Presberg
3 ball shoulder throws: 204 catches by Jorden Moir
3 ring backcrosses: 183 catches by Matan Presberg
3 club flats: 10 minutes and 42 seconds by Nick Thomas

4 ball lazies: 54 catches by Matan Presberg
4 ball box: 3 minutes 57 seconds by Matan Presberg

7 balls isolated: 1 minute and 43 seconds by Matan Presberg
7 ball 867: 188 catches by Matan Presberg
7 ball claw: 7 catches by Nick Thomas

9 ball reverse: 16 catches by Matan Presberg

Foot juggling
3 ball: 1 hand & 1 foot: 56 catches by Jorden Moir
4 balls: 2 hands & 1 foot: 142 catches by Jorden Moir

Speed juggling
4 ring speed: 232 catches in 1 minute by Nick Thomas
6 ball speed: 312 catches in 1 minute by Matan Presberg

Slow juggling
3 ring slow: 32 catches in 1 minute by Sydney MacDonald
4 ring slow: 76 catches in 1 minute by Sydney MacDonald
4 ball slow: 63 catches in 1 minute by Nick Thomas

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yeehaw! Thanks again for coming!

Orinoco - - Parent

+ Number of records set or broken at a single festival: 17?

That is an impressive set of records, congrats to all those involved.

Mike Moore - - Parent

18 last year at Guelph fest! I guess we're going down hill (I blame myself...I didn't set/break any this year. Too much running the fest, not enough juggling).

There was a world record challenge at IJA 2013, too. It looks like a subset of the broken records is available here:

I don't know the total number of records broken there.

Thanar - - Parent

I've still got one video left to upload (Sydney MacDonald with 16 min of 4b full reverse fountain), so it should end up as 18 records for WRC at Guelph Fest 2017.

As to previous World Record Challenges...

The first WRC was in 2010 at WJF 5. Prizes were only for surpassing existing duo numbers passing records.

In 2011 there were WRCs at WJF 6 and the IJA festival. The records expanded to solo numbers juggling records in addition to two-person numbers passing (i.e. the records tracked on the Juggling World Records Wikipedia page at that time). The prize for "missing records" was also introduced to encourage jugglers to attempt a flash or better of passing 17 rings or solo force bouncing 11 balls, the only two records considered missing at the time!

WRC 2013 was at the IJA fest in Bowling Green, OH. The records expanded to everything tracked by Juggle Wiki. Missing records were greatly expanded with minimums set for each, based on discussions I had with Alex Lubker. About 28 records were set or broken by a wide range of jugglers, with Thomas Dietz breaking the most.

Then came the WRCs at Guelph Mini-Fest 2016 and Guelph Fest 2017.

Tomorrow another WRC begins at JuggleMIT 2017, so stay tuned...

Mike Moore - - Parent

What you're saying is 28 records in one fest is the one to beat. I'll have to start training for the next time the WRC comes to a fest I'm attending!

Mike Moore - - Parent

Actually, I'll train especially for if you come to the next Guelph fest. It needs more people/publicity! (and I really thank you for helping with that)

James Hennigan - - Parent

I haven't watched the entire video, but I think Gatto does 7 for about 10 minutes without moving his feet here:

peterbone - - Parent

I'm not sure that counts as isolation for some reason. I watched Ofek Snir do 7 balls without moving his feet for over 12 minutes at the EJC last year.

Mike Moore - - Parent

The most convincing argument I heard was that the inability to move has a psychological on people. I've found this to be true in my experience.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Such a nice idea to set these records at the convention! I've been thinking about setting a few records lately, but I can't get the motivation to actually film them or practice tricks which I could run over a minute... In a convention/group setting I'd feel less awkward to try and less pushy to post, yet we'd still stretch juggling as we know it!

I might try and introduce this at some convention here in the EU in the future :)

And congrats on the results too!

Orinoco -

"Not terribly pretty"

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Useless fecking loser needs TWO hands to catch the last one! What a pathetic waster, he's going nowhere fast.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Queer .. I saw nothing, only a still picture of the solar system with a tiny lightblue brahman hovering a handwidth above ground on Jupiter. Guess, my subconscience did that to protect me.

The Void - - Parent

Not bad if you like that sort of thing. Not bad at all.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I flashed 8 balls today. I was bored, had to wait 15 minutes, there were some cheap beanbags lying around... I don't even juggle beanbags, ugh! Worst of all, I did it after only 5 minutes of trying so then I had to kill another 10 minutes somehow..

Where are my cool points?

The Void - - Parent

On the other side of the pillow.

peterbone - - Parent

Three cycles. That's got to be some kind of landmark. Amazing how the pattern seems less clean than most of his previous records. It sounds like he's changed balls and is using ultraleather ones for 11 now.

Thom! -

The Smithsonian Insitution's Sidedoor podcast just came out with an episode all about the life and legacy of Paul Cinquevalli! Well worth a listen if for no reason other than to listen to the dulcet tones of Erik Aberg's voice.

Check it out!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Very nice, thanks for linking to it and you make a nice appearance in it :)

Orinoco - - Parent

Found a download link for this episode in their RSS feed Sidedoor: ep. 7 | the man who defied gravity (mp3 36.3mb)

Thanks for the heads up Thom, just added this to my startling large collection of things to listen to!

Orinoco - - Parent

Ooh! I forgot I did that for mp3 links!

Little Paul - - Parent

Finally managed to get around to listening to this today white I was getting in my pelargoniums and taking cuttings. It was quite a good listen, even if it did give the listener the impression that nothing Cinquevalli did was gimmicked when some of it certainly was.

peterbone - - Parent

Surprised at Erik implying that the tricks were not gimmicked as he has stated here that he believes that at least some of the tricks were gimmicked. Here's the thread where we discussed this previously and an article I linked to that mentions how he might have done the billiard balance trick.

Little Paul - - Parent

I think at least some of it was “editing for the sake of a good story@

erik aberg - - Parent

This interview was over way sooner than I thought. I have not listened to it, so I do not know what parts they used, but we hardly even scratched the surface of Cinquevalli. They asked questions that were rather silly (for an example, what a member of the audience would wear), and kept interrupting me before I could come to any point. Hopefully, there will be a chance of discussing him properly in the future. In terms of Cinquevalli and gimmicked props, the point is that he claimed not to use them, and specifically pointed that out, as a difference to magic. What the actual reality was, can of course be discussed. The distinction between juggling and magic is clear after Cinquevalli, but not before.

peterbone - - Parent

Thanks. I totally understand how they could have quoted you out of context. It seems like Cinquevalli was working to make the distinction between juggling and magic, but then breaking his own rules. I totally understand that his main goal was one of entertainment and making a living though.

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