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varkor -

On the origin of jugglingAs of late, I have become increasingly curious as to the origin and history of the vast array of patterns and tricks that are practised in juggling. The more time goes by, the harder it becomes to trace back moves to their original inventor and practitioners, so it would seem the best way to preserve these histories as much as possible is to record them as soon as possible. Some might view this as a pointless activity, but I think it's an interesting and important task.However, it's very difficult to come by information such as this, and I need help - either with ideas on where to look for such information, or knowledge that you yourselves have on the subject. The best method for tracking down these snippet of history is undoubtedly from jugglers who have been around, and in the community, for longer than I, so I would be very grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction for any pattern, trick or something else along those lines.

Orinoco - - Parent

Now there's a Herculean task.

Back when I was writing 3 ball tutorials, I used to get inundated with emails giving alternate names of tricks. MANY MANY tricks have been invented independently so legitimately have different names. Inventing tricks is quite an exciting & personal thing & everyone invented it first.

For the record though, Relf's Revenge, Relf's Revenge 6, Relf's Rubensteins, Relf's Factory & the Orinoco Flow are all mine, & I can vouch for Dave's Dilemma & Harrison's Hang being born in Tunbridge Wells too!

Anyone else remember when 441 used to be Parallel Schizophrenia?

varkor - - Parent

It certainly is, yes.

Well, I'm grateful for you assistance with those three ball tricks, but I thought I'd start by doing slightly more well-known ones, if that's all right - if I include any trick there're going to be thousands of entries. Maybe after those though...

I've never heard that name for 441 - was it at all common?

Orinoco - - Parent

I don't think it was particularly common, it was the name given when I was first taught the trick in a time before siteswap had really entered into the juggler's language. I can remember it was the name used by at least 3 other people from my neck of the woods. However, I have talked about the name more recently to jugglers from other parts of the country & no one has heard that name.

The Void - - Parent

I've heard of it.
"See-saw" for the Box too.
"Utter confusion" for Mills Mess

And I invented them all. :-)

Orinoco - - Parent

Ah yes, the box was the see-saw when I learnt it too. I vaguely recall that was the name used on the MBTM instructional video at the time.

varkor - - Parent

You came up with those three names?How popular were they, in your knowledge?

The Void - - Parent

No, I invented all the tricks.

varkor - - Parent

Oh, right. Thank you for clarifying that. I had always thought Mills Mess was invented by Steve Mills, but now that you mention it, I did think that that explanation seemed a bit voidless.

mike.armstrong - - Parent

When I learned it (in Leeds in the late 90s) it was called paranoid schizophrenia the 4s had to be outsides
Cheers
-Mike

varkor - - Parent

Ah, thank you. That's an interesting distinction.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

I've never heard that name for 441, and I first heard 441 named in about '89 when Colin Wright first started his juggling maths lectures.

Little Paul - - Parent

I have heard 441 described as paranoid schizophrenia, but I'm not sure if that was before or after I heard it called 441 - so that's not much use is it!

I'm sure I've also heard it said that 441 as a pattern didn't exist until site swap was used to generate it, but have never really believed that as it seems a fairly obvious pattern (admittedly that's with full knowledge of its existence)

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

It was a bloody long time ago - '88 or '89 I guess - but IIRC Colin Wright explained that 441 was the first really distinct pattern that he and his colleagues came up with and validated using their version of SS.That's not to say it wasn't independently invented before, of course, but it is a clear instance of an invention having taken place, which Mr. Wright could probably verify or deny.

varkor - - Parent

Yeah, I think both separate creations (if they were independent) will be worth mentioning. It would be good if I could find out who actually came up with that name for 441, when they did it, and actually confirm when 441 was discovered by Colin Wright and his colleagues, to see which came first.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I'm pretty sure it was Colin Wright that taught me 441 at a small juggling festival early 90's. I remember he (if it was him) had a monitor with 441 and 531 animations, I was so desperate to learn 441 and although he was probably used to people picking it up quicker than I, he was very patient with me. I was absolutely chuffed with the new pattern, I didn't know anyone else that could do it at the time.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

This is a job for a Wiki. Make a big table with the names of tricks in the first coloumn, then add columns for alternative names, first known performance, most noted performer, other claims for origination, etc. Throw it open to the community of jugglers, sit back, and see what happens.Even something very sparse could be knocked into some sort of shape given enough time and interest.

varkor - - Parent

I've been thinking about creating a wiki-based site. Eventually I think that is what I'll do, but for now I think it's quicker and easier just to use a document-based format. If it really picks up in speed, or when I have a significant number of entries I'll make the transition.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I've often wondered that too, ground breaking creation is such an interesting side of juggling. When I started juggling there didn't seem to be a fraction of the amount of 3b tricks and patterns that there are now. Many common box variations are fairly recent I think, looking back at my late 80s early 90's IJA VHS videos, the bits that make up the routines seem so old, especially over the last few years. I would be really interested to know the origins of the (incredibly adaptable) reverse slam. It seems such an obvious next step from the regular slam but I don't recall seeing it in any of those old videos or perhaps I have that wrong. Also the shower behind neck - again it seems obvious and I imagine it's quite old (rolling three large balls behind the neck has been around for a while I believe) but I hadn't seen it thrown before until quite a recent Yuri video. I suppose that nowadays with online video it's fairly easy to pin down the roots and the various directions of new stuff.

varkor - - Parent

With truly new tricks, that should be true - however, many tricks performed nowadays as "new" tricks are actually very old and are just coming into popularity now. I'll certainly use videos as sources, but I think speaking to the supposed creators is probably the best approach.

 

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