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RegularJugular -

Does training with 1 ball improve skills with more objects?

I just recorded some one ball at 5 ball height (crossing) videos with the camera directly below my hands. The results seem to demonstrate that I cannot throw 1 ball neatly, I can juggle 5 easier than I can 1 ball. Why is this? Will spending hours getting 1 ball intuition right improve my skills with more objects?


FTR this is juggling Uglies.

RegularJugular - - Parent

A demonstration video clip https://youtube.com/v/qMaW3TxkTK0

7b_wizard - - Parent

I see a discrepancy between lotsa tension & force used, where technique for fitting your movements to the physics of the pattern would be needed.
You grasp the only 100-120 gr balls with the whole hand like they weighed a pound each and force them up like they were heavy cannonballs while holding the balls in fingers sutained by the thumb (merely touching the palms of your hands) would do way easier.
You trained this on 3b and 5b, but simply throwing 1b up accurately reveals this discrepancy of being accustomed to way too much effort for only such light little ball .. and you get fails with 1b.
q.e.d.? or wrong?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Try very high 1b throws! .. You will find them better, more accurate than your low throws, 'cos there's where force from esp. forearm is needed.

RegularJugular - - Parent

In the video I tried to get them all to roughly 5 ball height.

My regular 3 ball height throws I could catch with my eyes shut for ~10 catches even on a bad day. However as they are thrown less distance, less accuracy is required and more trained response. My arms would be much more tense for that.

I haven't tried 7b+ height 1 ball throws on video. I think I might have to tweak the camera exposure somehow, or perhaps just try an evening to get videos outside to record properly. I think high throws should cross-train well for lower heights though because there is less margin for error. If I can do them at all without running to catch them, it would help.

RegularJugular - - Parent

Thanks for the feedback. The change in weight issue does make sense, I think I'm better at thinking with a visual link than a physics link though. Physics was not my strongest subject.

While I can think of the power I put into my throws and I do find it useful to think about, I still end up puzzled by how much my errors compound, in more ways than one.

7b_wizard - - Parent

yw. .. With "only 100-120gr balls" I wasn't actually talking of a "change in weight" - I just guessed your beanbags' weight and can only state, there is simply no need to force them up out of shoulder and forearm as it were cannonballs - why should the wrists stay stiff as they were in plaster cast. ..
.. But I wronged you for - watching again - I now saw you do spring up your wrists some, a good lot, .. but catching and throwing the balls more towards the fingers and away from the palm will give them stronger lever and higher momentum with less(!) effort .. only thing about throwing mainly or good deal from wrists, is, accuracy and aiming is less simple and needs a while to get into and one has to overcome the instinct to throw with stable wrists, which provides for more control. But you will earn shorter dwell-time and precious time for e.g. aiming (or what else one has to coordinate between throws).

With "physics of the pattern", I simply meant adapt one's movements to speed and trajectory and momentum of the balls landing .. one can swiftly brake them down within their trajectory and dart them up in the right direction doing only what the balls low weight requires even intuitively .. thus the whole of hands, pattern, balls, orbits, hands, movements, all in motion form a natural harmonic unity. (Such "physics" is nothing else than the feeling of when a pattern runs good, easy, or even flows like by itself)

But maybe you're simply not all sure where exactly you want the balls to go .. simply "up" is not enough for accurate throws, I think .. I myself use virtual `points´ or `areas´ (`transparent clouds´((whatever that is)) or imagined `poles´ for straight up or rather high throws) in my controlled space-scope where more or less exactly I want the balls to have their highest point. Maybe you can find a way to aim 1b low well ..

I noticed some completely other issue now too -> your fails mostly go too far ahead -> so for more stability, you might simply need to only juggle near your body as you do in the short fluent phases .. I think throwing too far ahead is another instinct (to overcome) of not hurting oneself (e.g. face, eye) so subconscient one rather throws ahead, than towards own face. Throwing more behind to land on one's own head and doing some headbounces will get rid of such subconcient hindering instinct.

Orinoco - - Parent

Best tip I can give is tuck your shirt in when filming from this angle.

More seriously though I think focusing on your scoop would help, with the 5 ball cascade you are catching on the outside & throwing on the inside, but with one ball your throws are much more piston like.

RegularJugular - - Parent

When I read that I thought you meant that one side of my 5b cascade was more piston like, which I've thought for a long time. Although watching the video back it is very clear there is next to no scoop on my 1b throws. On my 5 ball cascade I've rarely been able to add more scoop to my right, so I tried making the left more piston like to compensate and suddenly there's frequently scoop on the right.

It seems there is no one way to learn, but I liked this video experiment it has made me more aware of how far my pattern moves forward and backward and how that feels.

Thanks for the feedback :)

Mike Moore - - Parent

I reckon it's because of what you practise. Most jugglers practise (numbers especially) to a certain rhythm that they get very used to, and find it harder to change that.

For example, if y'all'd asked me to run 7777700 for as long as my 7b, I'd've had a tough time with it (up until about 2 months ago, when I started practising 7777700, which I've found useful for helping clean my 7b. I didn't find it useful to learning 7b).

(Okay, done celebrating the 4th of July)

RegularJugular - - Parent

It's definitely a case of what is practiced. Although I still find it strange that I can barely throw one ball straight for 4 catches when I've seen people who've never juggled before get more accurate one ball throws at that height. I can presume that they have practiced sports that require short range accuracy for one object that I clearly haven't practiced. I did find Orin's tip about scoop did helped as a different way of thinking about the problem as well.

Mike Moore - - Parent

"Although I still find it strange that I can barely throw one ball straight for 4 catches when I've seen people who've never juggled before get more accurate one ball throws at that height."

I've seen a similar phenomenon to this, but on the other end. The juggling space that my club has practised in for the last ~8 years has had hanging lights running down the middle with a flat top, and sometimes a new member would get something stuck up there. The solution was obvious: stand at the other side of the room (so you could see the prop) and throw a ball to knock it down. The lights have a very stable shell/hanging system, so as long as one sticks to beanbags and doesn't really rifle the throws, there's no real threat of damage.

It's not that hard a throw, in my opinion: I can usually get something down without 5 throws. I came to juggling club late once, and people were relieved to see me. About half of the club had been trying to get a ball down for the last THIRTY MINUTES with no success. This party included jugglers who were just as good, and some better than I was.

Sure enough, on my third attempt it came down. Apparently juggling and throwing one ball accurately are different skills.

Orinoco - - Parent

Do you play any other sports that involve throwing something at something else?

As jugglers we tend to focus on the object being thrown. In every ball sport I can think of you focus on the target.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Shoot, the intention of my post was to get to that, then apparently I forgot where I was going. Thanks for the nudge.

I pitched in softball and played basketball for a few years. Lots of racquet sports, too, all of which I think helped.

emilyw - - Parent

Throwing one ball a very short distance very accurately and with precise timing, is different from throwing one ball a long distance? The arm action required is quite different, for a start, and not intuitive to those who haven't practiced it (c.f. https://vimeo.com/34678147).

Mike Moore - - Parent

At first, I thought the video was showing people throwing long distances with impeccible form! "I had no idea you were supposed to throw like that!"

It took about halfway through the video to rationalize that that's not what it was about.

7b_wizard - - Parent

"Apparently juggling and throwing one ball accurately are different skills." [Mike Moore] and the thread in its whole and the queer task of throwing 1b low well .. yet another aspect just struck me:
In juggling there might not be such thing as a distinct single throw, as you are e.g. crossing and e.g. juggling according to what there is in the air in some or other way, and of course with both hands in a rhythm together. Furthermore you throw sort of `into´ the landing balls with hands circling.

Your, RegularJugular's, 1b throws failing might simply lack the balls thrown with (resp.: the movement of) other hand before the 1b throw and aswell a landing ball to throw `into´ making the hand circle after the throw ..

 

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