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Orinoco -

I've been doing a lot of BJC research recently. Risky in Pink were a trio of club jugglers/table divers from NoFit State Circus who performed at the BJC in 1991. You can see a bit of their act in this old video which amused me greatly.

https://youtu.be/42DhOvXE5XI

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Nice!

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Saw that routine live at NFS HQ in Splott :)

Did you know it was choreographed/devised/consulted on by Johnny Hutch?

charlieh - - Parent

Ah there's a name to conjure with - an acrobat of the old school who was apparently spotted by a passing troupe doing a handstand on a chimney where he was working as a builder...could still do backflips at the age of 70 I believe.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Great acts. Very very lively, enjoyable & entertaining.

vazonun -

I have come to the conclusion, I'm not a choreographer.

I have been juggling for quite some time now... But I would consider myself as a sports juggler. I feel that it's time to take my skill, make it into something more entertaining and engaging for myself and others.

Long story short... I want to be more of a performer.

So, this is where I stand

3b Many tricks very smooth and consistent, including: Box, 3up 360 pirouette, Factory, Mill's-Mess, and eyes closed.
4b Many tricks smooth and consistent, including: Full Shower, Wide Columns, 534 and 7531.
5b Few tricks smooth and consistent, including: 1up-4up, (6x,4)*, 3up 360 pirouette, and Half Shower
6b Fountain consistent 24+ catches

3c Few tricks smooth and consistent, including: Mill's-Mess, Flats, Flair with both hands, and Kick-up into 4c
4c Few tricks smooth and consistent, including: 53, 534, Sync, A-Sync, Singles and Tripples.

I juggle to music every time I practice, I have the feel of what tricks I can do and when I should do them depending on the song that's playing... But I find I just improvise every time. If I drop, I leave the song play on, then I join in with the music when I feel like it. There is absolutely no structure with what I do.

So, the thing is that I have a song that I wish to perform to, it has a changing tempo, is just over three minutes long, and it's very catchy... But I am hopeless at choreographing what I want to do. I write down the tricks that I think I should include. I try to perform what I have written, execute the first trick then immediately forget the list and start improvising again. I then take a glance at my list, and then realise that almost half of the song has passed already, and I'm flapping around like a chicken.

The other thing is, I believe that I should include a few little breaks in the middle of the act to either give the audience a time to reflect and appreciate what I have just completed, or give me time to change props, but I have no idea when I should have them: After a big trick? After a series of little tricks? A different fancy finish every time?

So basically, I'm asking for any advice from you performers out there. How can I develop my routine, how can I make a show out of what I can do?

Much love to you all,

Matt

Orinoco - - Parent

Who do you want to be performing for? That will affect what direction you need to go in. If you are performing for other jugglers your approach needs to be very different to if you are performing for non-jugglers.

I've seen every trick you've listed before & can do most of them myself. What makes you unique? What can you do that makes your 3b box different from everybody else's 3b box? If the answer's nothing then I'm probably not going to be interested. The only one trick that jumps out at me on your list is 4b wide columns. How wide? If it's more than 'one step' I'm interested!

If you are performing to non-jugglers any one of those tricks (even just a 3-ball cascade) could be something they have never seen before making you the most unique juggler they've ever seen. That certainly doesn't mean performing for non-jugglers is easier. Jugglers are quite happy to watch juggling. Non-jugglers want to see entertainment which is not the same thing.

I'm going to try to explain why you should choreograph your routine which is not going to help you to break out of the improvising habit, but might help encourage you to put in the effort required to do so.

If you are improvising & doing something different each time, you have no real way to identify what an audience appreciates. Was it the pattern, the transition into or out of the trick that got that gasp? Think of it like designing a science experiment. Your routine should be almost identical, just make one change at a time. If that change consistently gets a better reaction keep it in.

If you watch a seasoned street performer. That witty one-liner that they used to put down a heckle? The timing, the phrasing, the intonation will almost certainly have been crafted to perfection through many years of repetition. The build up to, the execution, the reaction after that finale trick will have gone through thousands of iterations in front of audience.

You have a list of tricks. Well done, that's more of a start than most people ever make. Memorise it without juggling it, then practise juggling it. Then find an audience & perform it, pay attention to their reactions - did someone try to applaud a trick but gave up because there was no pause in the action? Those audience reactions are the hints that tell you what changes to make.

All that said though, improvisation is a useful skill to have there will always be a situation that you can't account for or something you haven't thought of.

Orinoco - - Parent

Oh, & a quick note about choreographing to music. One of my first performances was a diabolo routine at a TWJC Christmas show. I had started with some music & a list of tricks just like you have. After the show a chap named Phil came up to me & asked, "How did you choreograph all those tricks to be in time with the music?" I hadn't. Any connection between the timing of my tricks & the music was entirely coincidental but his perception that I had was what mattered!

vazonun - - Parent

Thank you very much for the advice!

Yes, I suppose I didn't specify who I was going to be performing for and where. I want to perform mainly for non jugglers, more of a busking role. I have multiple costume ideas, multiple song genres, and multiple prop styles.

So, my next step is going to be reform the list I have drafted up, and I'll memorise the order of the tricks. But what I'll also start to draft up a list of the styles I could use... Whether it is skipping around the stage, over emphasising a "big" trick, or flashing a cheeky wink at someone in the audience.

I understand that patter and wit will take years to master, and I am more than willing to accept that my first performance isn't going to be perfect, but I'm dying to find out.

Little Paul - - Parent

Busking?

Drop the music, bin it completely. Busking is all about making a connection with the individuals in the crowd, making them gasp/laugh/react in any way other than walking off. Doing that without talking is *harder* than doing it with words.

Go watch a load of street shows, try not to copy whole bits, but pay attention to and copy the show structure. There are phases to a street show, gathering a crowd, building, filling, final trick, hatting. The structure is there because it works.

That structure makes choreography easier, because it gives you bones to hang the tricks off.

You will suck

Performance is a skill in itself, it has to be learned and practiced. Unfortunately that has to be done infrint of an audience.

You will suck, but every show will have a glimmer of not sucking in it - take that, fan it into a flame, fan that flame into an inferno and you're golden :)

It's Him - - Parent

Furthermore busking may not be your thing. It requires a particular mindset to be a busker. You have to build a show around continuously asking for money, to be successful. You can't just have one hat line unless you want to starve. There is a ton of information on the internet about this http://www.buskercentral.com/how_to.php being a good start but there are a load of sites.

There are many other outlets for performing jugglers but very few require just your juggling skills. Professional jugglers are business people first and finding the niche that earns you money is an ongoing task.

Nigel

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Good luck busking! Out of all the performance styles/venues that are available, busking is the one for which actual juggling skills are the least important. It all comes to your ability to sell those 3 tricks that you're going to do. This challenge would teach you to perform for sure

If you do want to juggle, but want to be on the street, I can recommend traffic lights. A clean sequence of tricks works fine here, and as a bonus it is not a requirement to consider sound and costume etc ;)

Maria - - Parent

Someone tried traffic lights in Sweden and got told off by the police, who apparently had never heard of anyone performing at traffic lights before. (It was in the newspaper.)

Is there really time to both perform and collect money before the lights turn green? I think that was the main issue with the one who tried it "here", that he was still collecting money and thus slowing down the cars when it was green.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

When I did it, I had a traffic light with a 1.5 minute cycle. I would perform for about 30 seconds, collect for 30 seconds, and then the cars would drive for 30 seconds. However, often I would still be stuck on the road while people started driving, and then someone would have to slow down for me in order for me to make it to the shoulder. That would happen like one out of 5 times or so.
Also, every now and then I would be really lucky and there would be many cars trying to give me money, if those cars were willing to slow down the traffic behind them, yes you'd slow down traffic. But often these cars weren't willing, so if you would reach them too late they would drive anyway.

But sure, you're on the road where you're not supposed to be, you're standing in relatively dangerous positions... If I were a cop and had never seen this practise, I would tell people off too...

The best places to start doing this are places that are already used to beggars or window washers. They have come to "accept" people walking along the traffic light, but then being the juggler you are the fun and original version, not the annoying one. Everybody happy.

I haven't dared to try here in the Netherlands. In Rotterdam I know of one spot where a beggar walks, but I'm still convinced that people would be too baffled to get out money in time. Plus, I find it scarier to pretend I'm the quirky guy when I'm not a non-native/traveler. Being outside your own country gives you some bonus points.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Busking is a good way to learn a lot about performing very fast, but having done it, I'd recommend against anyone spending much time on it, aiming to do it long term or even put the effort into getting good at it. I have never met a more miserable crowd than a group of long time street performing jugglers. It's a creatively deadening form of entertainment mixed with cut-throat competition for pitches, material, and promotion. Know what you are getting yourself in to!

vazonun - - Parent

Thank you all, for all of the advice you have been able to provide me.

An additional note:

I am not looking to make juggling a reliable source of income, nor am I looking to make it a full-time major commitment. I am in a position where I work away on a ship for 4 months (With plenty of juggle practice time), then it's followed by 3 months paid leave, so I wouldnt need it to be a great money-maker.

In my three months paid leave I love to travel, I find myself in cities, on beaches, and in places where I barely know the language. So what I am actually looking to do is just create an eye-catching routine that brings smiles to the people around me. I wouldn't need anything in return, I would be doing it purely for the entertainment of others (and myself of course).

lukeburrage - - Parent

Sounds like a good life! I love the idea of not having to do stuff for money, and then not having to follow the normal rules or guidelines in that direction.

If you just want to juggle some nice routines, but aren't asking for money or even perform in a traditional sense, why not just learn the routine of someone else? In doing so you'll learn a lot about choreography from inside someone else's head.

vazonun - - Parent

It's a good life for a 23 year old with no family commitments, but it's not for everyone.

I thought the number one unwritten rule of a performer was never to use someone else's performance routine? Or have I got this completely wrong?

lukeburrage - - Parent

i don't mean you should perform someone else's routine, but learn the choreography. Once you get a feel of what kind of things flow together by copying the masters, you'll know much better what you can develop yourself.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Welcome to the world of performing :).

Keep in mind that any (juggling) performance is more than a list of tricks being executed! Other things to consider choreographing:
Position and movement on stage, movement and position of body, music, acting, costume, props, colors, events, jokes, etc.

I've seen enough juggling to not care for a routine of common tricks. But if you have a good/fun/untested idea for one of the things mentioned above, and let that influence your juggling (for example, put on 30 t-shirts as your costume and see what you can still do, or skip around in circles on stage and bring that movement in harmony with your juggling), and you've got yourself an interesting performance.
Now, if you've never performed much, those things may seem hard and it sounds much easier to "hide" behind the juggling you already know... But if you're serious about learnig performing you'll have to accept that the juggling you do in training might not directly be interesting on stage.

Once you've got this extra thing in your act that makes your performance interesting, the tricks will hopefully soon fall into place and order.

Good luck!

IsaacDraper -

Hello all, my five ball cascade is starting to get fairly good and I wanna start some tricks. Where should I start? I'm thinking easy peasy rather than upside down, back to front reverse Rubenstein. Thanks!

James Hennigan - - Parent

The easiest 5 ball tricks are multiplex tricks: https://youtu.be/cOpAVoLO-e0

The halfshower is probably the easiest non-multiplex trick (learn to do it with 4 if you haven't already).

The easiest siteswaps with 5 are (6x,4)*, 744 & 645 (again I recommend working on 4b siteswaps first).

I would also strongly encourage you to work on 3 balls in one hand at this point. It's essential for many 5 ball tricks, and if you choose to learn 6 it's nice if you can already do half of the pattern.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Other tricks to consider:
Walking around, turning around, sitting down & standing up, balancing on one leg, twisting your upper body, etc.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Congratulations on solidifying a five ball cascade! The 5b. cascade was my first juggling goal, and the pattern that really got me hooked on juggling.

Where you go from here depends on your skill level as well as your goals for juggling. I encourage you to log some of your practice sessions (in the logs section of the jugglingedge.com) so that more advanced jugglers can recommend tricks and juggling patterns that are relevant to your skill level.

If you are only interested in performance, learning 5 ball siteswaps is not the most efficient use of your time.

My goal is to juggle 7 balls for one minute, and I don't really care about performance juggling. If you are like me, you should train 3, 4, and 5 ball siteswaps. 5 ball siteswaps are considerably more difficult than the 5 ball cascade, so it's best to master some 3 and 4 ball siteswaps first.

Now is a good time to get a set of juggling clubs.

7b_wizard - - Parent

As a mix of normal\reverse throws (normal--normal--reverse--..a.s.o.), I liked "fast tennis" [animation on JWikia http://juggle.wikia.com/wiki/Tennis lower right]

ways of gripping, catching
You might wanna do a, one or some claws?
A low throw - but still a 5, just caught penguin, thrown right back in unchanged tact and 5-pattern.

multiplex
355[22]5[53]55555 - chose a 5-ball to track for throwing that 3 to land near where and when that 5 will presumably land. Then, after the hold, stack-split them right back into pattern; you can use the thumb to split them well. Just make sure, the other hand is ready to go on throwing its normal 5 right after that lower stacked ball comes in sooner, lower.
25[53]5555 - with a hold you wait for another 5 to come in and throw them right back to pattern with the same stacked throw.
7555505[53]55555 - one high 7, then you throw a 5 onto both meeting where and when they land. The stack now goes right into filling the gap back to full 5-pattern.
355[75]5055555 - a 5 and 3 meet (creating a gap where they're thrown, two beats later), thrown as high stack right back into filling all gaps to full pattern again.

s'swap
55558552 - I found straight up outside 8-s easier - away from any possible collisons.

7b_wizard - - Parent

[ff (last one, °8552°)] .. just do 855 from running cascade, stop one beat, and aim the next normal 5-throw ``over´´ the incoming 8 back to ground-pattern.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I also like how different the answers here are without overlapping!?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Just one two more remarks on extra throws or sequences from 5b-cascade ..

.. by doing an extra throw, you split the pattern into that extra throw and a rest of the normal ground pattern (consisting of 4 balls going on doing regular Fives, or - in case of multiplex - 3 balls doing regular Fives).

.. if you have a weakhand that sort of always follows while stronghand sort of leads, any extra throw will entail a following reaction of the next hand (like also ``wanting´´ to do or in fact doing higher, or also lower, or also wanting to pause on a hold, ororor, or simply gets puzzled on "Erhh.. why what how now?" at a given moment).

.. also, when doing higher throws, an 8, a 6, a 7, you have like more balls in the air than usually when doing 5b cascade where one ball has its dwelltime, one next lowest ball is spotted to catch and sort of ``done with focus on it´´, which makes it mostly three balls in the air to cope with.   With a high throw, there's then (suddenly) four balls in the air high up to be coped with.

So, one main hurdle in leaving the constant cascade to do extra throws or sequences, is to dead-stable keep the rest of the pattern in stable shape!   Rely on well aimed throws fitting back into pattern even when you seem to lose control for a few milliseconds and just let things happen instead of hesitating!

IsaacDraper - - Parent

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll get started right away! My 3b and 4b siteswaps are limited but I'm learning more. Exciting stuff!

7b_wizard -

How much do you  a c c e p t   h e l p,  hints or helpful feedback for improving? (no matter wherefrom, video tutorial, or person to person, shown or told or written, ororor)

  1. I am stubborn and want to make my own way all on my own even biting myself through plateaus. (thus doing purely my own way, maybe leading to my genuine 100% own style)
  2. I usually want to find my own way through and reject any help, but I thankfully take help when really badly stuck for a long time.
    .. or ..
    Practical feedback rather irritates or puzzles me, brings me out, so I'd generally prefer doing without.
    [ both options = can take, or want little help ]
  3. I am happy for help when I asked for or when the hint is good and applies.
  4. I am happy for any help I can get - I'll try everything out and filter what applies for me.
  5. Without constant help, always a teacher there to guide me, or a good resource (book, eBook, video tutorial series, ..) I would not a whit get anyhwere ahead.
  6. [ other .. no one helps .. \ .. help is always bad .. \ .. I'm immune against improving, no matter how good the help is .. \ .. There's nothing to improve - my 3b cascade is perfectly fluent. :o} ]

This is a competition thread which ran from 13th May 2017 to 22nd May 2017. View results.

Maria - - Parent

I voted 4, I'll try most things suggested by better jugglers, but I don't keep working on it if it's too boring (for example, I have not learned 4c fountain on singles, even though I have been told it could help improve my 4c fountain on doubles). I don't really come up with many ideas by myself, either. I mean, I can come up with a new combination of throws, but I don't really invent anything completely new.

As a club passer who usually passes with someone better than me, option 5 would not have been wrong either.

Maria - - Parent

...and I have not learned 5 ball cascade, even though I'm trying to learn 5 clubs.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'm somewhere in the 3.5 camp. If I can be particular about the phrasing "when the hint is good and applies" to be "[...] as interpreted by some all-knowing being," then I'm comfortable with it. Sometimes I don't realize the hint is good until a while after it was given.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hmhm, I see; maybe we can meet on "if a hint gets you thinking or rumors around in your mind not knowing what rhyme to make of it", then it can still either puzzle and irritate you beyond threshold, or else, you can be ``happy´´ on there being a new way waiting to be discovered some given time later. Or even else, it's stored somewhere in the unconscious until it pops up again at a given moment or remains there forever until the ``hard disk´´ (=memory) is cleaned and overwritten. ( Which still leaves the decision "happy or not about such an unclear hint" to you :o] ) .. but, yeah, if an all-knowing being knows before, read as: "If a hint will apply, later (and I will be happy about it, later)."

.. or just read "3." and "4." as:

3. Happy for help "under condition". (not "any and all the help you can get" unrestrictedly)
4. "Give it all over to me, I'll sort it out." = Any and all the help there might be is welcome. (without any restriction)

Basically the scale goes from 1. "no input whatsoever" over 2. "little help accepted", 3. ``Some´´ or ``a good deal´´ or "under condition" help accepted, 4. All, every, any help (more than) welcome, upto 5. "only with help, can't do without".

7b_wizard - - Parent

btw i'm not sure what to vote myself .. been through like all of the options 1. to 4. before, i think, and now it seems to "depend" on which pattern, which ajuggling (few ball stuff, e.g. Kraken, or else numbers techniques). Even 6., "I don't get info on what exactly is going in the brain and focus and where attention lays in distinct milliseconds." is partly true.

Guess I'll land on 3. or 4. too, as there's yet so much to discover (clubs, 5b s'swaps, selfthrows and fountains, more body range e.g. bbb, for me), .. why not spare time and effort by getting all and any help I can get to get where I want sooner.

Marvin - - Parent

This poll has now ended. The results are:

  1.   I am stubborn and want to make my own way all on my own even biting myself through plateaus. (thus doing purely my own way, maybe leading to my genuine 100% own style) (0 votes)
  2.   I usually want to find my own way through and reject any help, but I thankfully take help when really badly stuck for a long time.
    .. or ..
    Practical feedback rather irritates or puzzles me, brings me out, so I'd generally prefer doing without.
    [ both options = can take, or want little help ] (1 vote)
  3.   I am happy for help when I asked for or when the hint is good and applies. (4 votes)
  4.   I am happy for any help I can get - I'll try everything out and filter what applies for me. (4 votes)
  5.   Without constant help, always a teacher there to guide me, or a good resource (book, eBook, video tutorial series, ..) I would not a whit get anyhwere ahead. (0 votes)
  6.   [ other .. no one helps .. \ .. help is always bad .. \ .. I'm immune against improving, no matter how good the help is .. \ .. There's nothing to improve - my 3b cascade is perfectly fluent. :o} ] (0 votes)

Orinoco -

Lovely juggling & splashing around in a river with Neta Oren:

https://youtu.be/d77D2JroXQs

Looks like it's about 5 years old but I missed it first time round. I think this is a great example of using your surroundings in performance.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Won.der.ful.! .. Life's for free, it seems!?

ChrisD - - Parent

Thanks - original and rather fun. I hadn't seen this either, though I think Luke may have parodied it as part of his rather good 'videos in the style of the top 40 juggers'. I like her style. A quick search also produced this one, which is nice too: https://youtu.be/rxnxpY8VeTs

7b_wizard - - Parent

Impressing!   different. experimental. archaic. sound.

Orinoco -

Possible gig on the Isle of Wight if anyone is interested/available.

I've not personally heard of Area 51 before but there are a number of seasoned performers listed as on their books so I'm going to assume they are legit.

Hi,
I'm looking for 4-6 jugglers to take part in this years Isle of
Wight festival
I'm currently on the hunt for local performers who want to join the
fun!
Please let me know if this is something of interest
www.area51.co (just.co)

Many thanks
Kind Regards


If interested here are their contact details & ask for Pippin Wood.

Jason Fitzjohn -

I must add that all my nunchaku and staff spinning is purely for flow and to look amazing to an audience. I do not train for combat purposes,

Jason Fitzjohn -

Hi all,
My name is Jason and i have just signed up to the Edge.
I have been spinning nunchaku, double nunchaku, bo staff, fire staff and have just started double staff.
I am really interested in meeting and talking to others who use contact staff. Am i in the right place or is this just balls. Excuse the pun!

Orinoco - - Parent

Hi Jason, & welcome. Have you checked the clubs & events sections to see if there is anything near wherever you are yet?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi, Jason.

Interesting. Never got a pair of nunchucks in my hands. Would wanna throw and toss-juggle them rather than contact-handle them.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I read that "freestyle is a discipline of competition held by the World Nunchaku Association".

Has Nunchaku changed/moved forward (technically) since internet video?

Mike Moore -

Juggler - The Video

I'm reading some old JUGGLE magazines, and in the July/Aug 1998 the making of a documentary on who jugglers are is discussed. in the 1999 magazines, it is advertised. The advertisement reads:

JUGGLER THE VIDEO
A show and tell from the best in the world...Past and Present.

Does this video exist online? Googling hasn't worked for me.

bad1dobby - - Parent

I don't know this one - is there a list of who's in it?

The Void - - Parent

..or who produced it? There was one by Strider productions earlier in the 90s called, I think, "Juggler" or something similar. I'd guess it was that one, but not sure if you're saying it was "upcoming" in '98.

Mike Moore - - Parent

The ad says, "To order, call Sportco"
And "Presented by Eagle Entertainment Group, INC"

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yep!

Steve Brown, Hovey Burgess, Dave Finnegan, Varry Friedman, Forest Hobbs, Daniel Holzman, Sergei Ignatov, Katerina Ignatov,
Edward Jackman, and a handful of others.

bad1dobby - - Parent

Found it:
https://youtu.be/1rHk6dIoe4Q

Knew I'd seen it recently when you listed Hovey Burgess

Mike Moore - - Parent

Fantastic! Thanks so much.

bad1dobby -

Still got it...

https://youtu.be/y28jsNUhi58

Orinoco - - Parent

Hahaha! Beautiful!

The Void - - Parent

Is that you, Dobby?

bad1dobby - - Parent

No, he looks a bit like me, but I have neither the skills nor the wardrobe.

The Void - - Parent

:-)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool!   Impeccable footwork, too.

Little Paul - - Parent

I like the bloke standing in the garden seeming thinking "FFS bill, not this again. Can't you just get on with the job?"

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