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The Void -

#MJCOT . Good fun at the weekend. Strained my back slightly after playing one too many games of Gladiators. Fun natterings at the evening venue, and good game of Worms, or whatever it was called. Thomas, Jamie and Jon were all excelllent in the show. And at the scout hut later, I leaned that a bread toastie is the opposite of a toast sandwich. Oh, and finally understood the "name three foods" challenge. (No two of them may be complementary.) Breakfast at the garden centre was fully complementary.

Thanks to all Ians and other orgs.

My pics are up at *No re-uploads, please!*

Orinoco - - Parent

Guessing the worms game may be Heckmeck am Bratwurmeck if it originated from Dr Helen.

The Void - - Parent


Ian F - - Parent

It was all kinda fun. Cheers Void and all who came to play :-)

Phranchesskah -

Hello I'm new here, please love and welcome me!

I'm almost a beginner at juggling but am earnestly practising to overcome that identity ;)

I like chocolate.

I'm looking forward to becoming a part of your community here, you seem like a nice enough lot of folks.

Orinoco - - Parent

Welcome Phranchesskah. What sort of chocolate are you working on at the moment?

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm rather partial to lindt lindor truffles at the moment, which isn't a particularly cheap habit.

vazonun - - Parent

Can't get enough of Vego Hazelnut vegan chocolate bar myself, also not very cheap.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Are you an expert on chocolate milk by any chance

Phranchesskah - - Parent

I'm not one for chocolate milk I'm afraid. I feel it ruins the chocolate, and the milk.

Phranchesskah - - Parent

Conscious Chocolate make the very best organic raw handmade expensive chocolate. and also I like Terry's. and also Lindt 90% dark chocolate, and mini eggs, and Cadbury's Dairy Milk, and Galaxy, and Galaxy caramel, and mint Matchmakers, and Crunchies! and Kinder eggs and also Toblerone.

I just love chocolate.

I also like cacao ceremonies.

vazonun - - Parent

Yes, I have tried the Mint Conscious Chocolate, it is very good, but indeed super expensive.

Phranchesskah - - Parent

They were giving it out for free at the door to the Mind Body Spirit festival in London a few weeks ago. So obviously I made friends with the guy on the door so I could keep going back for more :D

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi & welcome Phranchesskah! .. "seem nice enough" .. Haha! .. wait 'til you get to know us better ;o]p

York Jugglers - - Parent

Welcome to the Edge

You should come to Chocfest in January in York, we have a mini festival of juggling and chocolate.


Phranchesskah - - Parent

Ooooh what! That's genius. I will definitely be there.

Cedric Lackpot -

Teeterboard in the French countryside.

Good clean quirky fun, Gallic style. If you look closely you can see they are chain-smoking Gauloises.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool. Haven't seen ``consecutives´´ before (seen it only as jumptool in circus).

Daniel Simu - - Parent

If you're into Korean style teeterboard (different from Hungarian style, which you descriped as a jumptool), be sure to follow Aaron Hakala

7b_wizard - - Parent

Cool. Instantly lifts my spirits when something or someone flies. ;o])

Orinoco -

Just going to leave this here to watch later. I've been told she's pretty good.

7b_wizard - - Parent


7b_wizard - - Parent

Here's her with long a cappella parts, "Blue Moon of Kentucky", and without puppet.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I cun do wentriloquisn, dut without the "eng" loik in "ngilkshake" (or in "sungertinge .. when the liwing is easieeeh""), without "qee" like in "qatterngenerator" and without the "dee" like in "dutterfly".  O,o

Orinoco - - Parent

↑ Not the most incomprehensible 7b_wizard post :P

7b_wizard - - Parent


david - - Parent

Bbest AGT ever!

Orinoco - - Parent

Yep, she's pretty good.

bad1dobby - - Parent

She's really good technically - try saying "baby" without using your lips, and then watch her do it at 2:15 - perfect!

I hope she gets past the fixed grin expression (I call it "ventriloquist's rictus"). Even if she doesn't, she'll still be in good company - Shari Lewis did it through her stellar career.

bad1dobby - - Parent

Here's Ken Dodd having fun with the "b" problem:
(Apologies if I've posted this before - it's a favourite)

Orinoco - - Parent

Haha! That's great!

Little Paul - - Parent


She's got 3 of the 4 key vent skills down (writing, puppetry, speaking without moving your lips) and I'm sure she's not far off the last (and hardest) one - a relaxed facial expression that reacts to the puppet.

Some of the other videos I've just watched of her are less rigid.

She's s country mile ahead of Nina Conti on the technical skill though!

Marvin -

The Green Eggs Report for May 2017 is now available. Last month 39 people made 232 posts containing 60 links. See past reports.

2 events have new trivia: BKO2017, BBU2017.

IsaacDraper -

Does anyone know where I can get Beard DX balls from? I've got four but need five!

Little Paul - - Parent

I was about to cheerily point you at the beard website and say that you could order direct from the manufacturer - but the site seems to have vanished from where I was looking for it.

Anyone know what happened to it?

The only place I can find non-powerball DXs appears to be on amazon - which seems odd (so I'm sure there will be an affiliate link along in a minute)

I guess the Play MX ball is probably the closest modern equivalent, but how close they are in size/weight I don't know.

Orinoco - - Parent


Some of the pages on the old Eclipse domain are still up but appears to be no more. Doesn't seem to be much of their range available from other retailers other than the horrible DX power balls that everyone is still trying to shift that no one should buy anyway. They haven't gone bust have they?

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

For some reason I was under the impression they had ceased trading, or at least left the circus props side of things, but on reflection I have no idea where I got that notion from.

Mïark - - Parent

I think I heard Jac Products had bought up Beard - they have DX balls under their name now on the Jac Products website

With Butterfingers ceasing trading last year, Yorkshire is now lacking in juggling wholesalers/manufacturers

Little Paul - - Parent

Are anti-gravity still trading in York?

We were having quite an interesting game of "which traders advertising in the catch are still in business" at Bungay the other week.

York Jugglers - - Parent

Yes, Anti-Gravity are still trading, but the size of their juggling section gets smaller and smaller. Shop seems to be mostly full of scooters and drones at the moment.

unigamer - - Parent

I have 8 green (what I think are) DX balls. They feel kind of rubbery, are quite small and feel very solid. I was never a huge fan because they were just a bit too hard. If you are based in the UK send me an email and I am sure we can come to some sort of arrangement.

I bought these at least 5 or 6 years ago so if the design has changed they will be different but they are barely used.

It's Him - - Parent

Try Barbara at JazzPhab hula hoops. She used to sell Beard kit at conventions at may have something left. She's on Facebook if you can't find her somewhere else.


IsaacDraper - - Parent

Thanks guys, I haven't been able to get in the Beard site for a while now. It'd be a shame if they've gone under, I bought so much stuff from them in the past. I can't get on the Butterfingers site anymore either, have they gone too?

unigamer - - Parent

The Butterfingers site must have gone down in the last week or two but they sold most of their stock around October time last year when they started winding up the juggling equipment side of the business. I believe the family warehouse play centre thing has shut now too.

I got you email, will reply today!

Orinoco -

I would like to give some public love to Ron Trickett, Duncan Smith, Ewan Chrichton, Stephanie Schneider & the rest of BJC 2016 team for a very generous donation towards the running of the Edge & also (which I hope to reveal an interesting new section towards the end of next month). Ron's donation has enabled me to get a significantly better deal on hosting which sees us secure for a good number of years.

I have an enormous appreciation for anyone who invests their time, money or skills in our juggling community. I am both humbled & exceptionally grateful to be chosen as the recipient for these funds.


Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thank you wonderful people!

unigamer - - Parent

Great news, thanks to Orinoco and the BJC 2016 team.

Juggler Share -

Website revisions and more to come:
Hello again everyone! Since my last posting I've received a wealth of suggestions and pointers. Taking them all in I'd like opinions on if/how there is any way to go forward with having an online juggling store comprised mostly of outside juggling store product links, otherwise known as affiliate links. If my website is giving off a bad impression because of the Amazon product links in my store please tell me. If there is a way to negate that bad impression and any way to still have a store without having to own and carry my own inventory let me know your ideas. Also let me know if you like the new website design! Thank you!
-Featured Amateur Juggler page is in the works
-Possible online store taken off my website and given its own website with a highly expanded inventory.
-Juggler Share

Little Paul - - Parent

Just as a PSA - if like me you're already bored of being marketed to by an anonymous amazon affiliate scheme masquerading as a juggling website - there is an ignore this user link on every posters profile...

Juggler Share - - Parent

I apologize I've come off that way. All of the profits from the affiliate store will be used to sponsor amateur jugglers. I've revised my website to clearly state that and I only post here to ask for suggestions on how to better serve the juggling community. I've gotten great feedback and I in no way intended to spam the jugglingedge forum with amazon affiliate links. Just trying to improve.

Orinoco -

I just got back from Bungay 18. On the journey up, the A12 was closed for resurfacing. After a slow single lane stretch myself & the six cars between me & a very distinctive lorry all followed the diversion signs which led us in a neat circle back into the slow single lane stretch which was somewhat irritating. Then I arrived on site, stress immediately dissipated & it all went a bit Bungay.

In no particular order then…

We enjoyed glorious sunshine for the whole week aside from a brief ~20 minute rainy spell. 4 of us stood just inside the entrance of the main tent looking out at the rain. Then in silence & led by Avril we all just stepped outside to enjoy the cooling effect which was a lovely moment. Some people get wet, others feel the rain.

On my first night I broke into a bottle of Becherovka that I acquired over Christmas & enjoyed sharing it with others. It's an interesting drink; I describe it as a liquid mince pie. I think slightly more people enjoyed it than didn't. This may have been a contributing factor to Richard, Ewan, Sam & I rigorously debating the precise nature of Kelis' milkshake & her yard well into the next day.

I woke up the next morning almost as drunk as I was when I went to bed.

Bungay is all about the board games for me. This year I added a copy of Kingdomino to my games collection. A very simple domino themed deck building game that I heartily recommend to everyone.

I played several 3+ hour games over the week: Caverna with Kat, Susannah, Adam & Andy, Castles of Mad King Ludvig with Andy, Ron & Richard, Small Worlds with Dom, Ernest, Jude & Anna (which saw some poor decisions based on some very suspect counting I thought), & Say Goodbye to the Villains; a card game that simulates a battle in feudal Japan, after which I felt I had genuinely been in a physical fight. Shockingly the annual Power Grid session was not one of them which we managed to race through in an unprecedented 2 hours.

All this was nothing to the game of croquet featuring myself, Ewan, Mandy, Ash & Greg. I wisely kitted myself out with my tea-towel headgear to protect my neck from the relentless sun. I would not have been able to survive the game without it. This earned me the nickname Orinoco of Arabia from spectators. Earlier in the week Kat was chatting to a friend who plays croquet competitively. It turns out that at Bungay we play a mixture of American rules & English rules, & our posting rule that sends a player back to the beginning is something we have just made up & is not played anywhere else. Apparently the friend was horrified when they found out about our rule, "That would make a game last for hours!" Yes, yes it does. All 5 of the players were posted twice, Mandy was posted 3 times. I was agonisingly one hoop away from invincibility just before both of my postings. For the long range posting attempts we employed the 'post or buttercups' technique, which is where you line up the shot to send your opponent into the post, but take a golf swing so that if you miss the force of the shot sends them out of bounds & deep into the field. When I posted Greg I was momentarily worried that I cracked the post. Incidentally in non-Bungay croquet if your ball is sent out of bounds you are supposed to bring your ball back & drop it just inside the boundary. We circumvent this rule by not having any boundaries. This allowed Ewan to tie up Ash for 3 turns by sending his ball into someone's tiny popup tent. 5 hours into the game concentration, stamina & will to live were all waning severely. The only thing that held in all players was sheer bloody-mindedness. When Ash made it through the last gate it looked like it was going to be all over, but he missed a shot allowing Greg to get through the last gate too, then he pulled off a splendidly executed 8 shot sequence to clinch the game. Not bad for only his 2nd ever match.

I discovered one of the caterers, Greg, was Romanian which allowed me to try out some of my Romanian language skills. Unfortunately for him my Romanian is entirely focused on flirting with a beautiful lady friend who I go dancing with, but I think he handled it pretty well.

Heckmeck Barbecue is a game involving gambling on the rolls of 8 die. I was pretty good at quickly calculating the odds, but the thing about probabilities is even the unlikely outcomes happen occasionally. Kat rolling 4 1s when almost anything except a 1 would do was amusing, me rolling 4 worms, then 2 5s, then another 2 5s to bust less so. Void's yes/no game complete with the oh so satisfying reception bell turned very rowdy very quickly. Farmer Paul's attempt at the game was hilarious. Only he could ramble for 3 minutes on the simple question, "Do you have a favourite actress?"

Dominique particularly enjoyed Andy & I relentlessly spit roasting Richard during Robo Rally. This was another long gaming session that was interrupted for a brief argument involving everyone in the cafe over the correct pronunciation of 'scone'.

I had a look at Dee's notebook that included detailed analysis of the copious amount of gin flowing on site. I thought my notes were hard to follow but at least I don't jump my sentences back & forth over several lines. The joyously incoherent Chilli had quite clearly been involved in the tasting process.

I enjoyed talking to Dr Helen, I find the life of a working doctor incredible & fascinating.

On the far side of the camping area there was a minor campfire incident, fortunately I had a saucepan of washing up water in my hand when I heard the call. I don't think it would have turned into anything serious.

Eddy Bacon's contact juggling was superb in the show. I also very much enjoyed Karen's belly dance, Avril's song describing Bungay from the point of view of an alien & Duncan's juggling bird impressions.

I did a couple of short handstand sessions & about 5 minutes of club juggling over the course of the week. I think my transition to social juggler is complete.

#BBU2017 #conventionreview

lukeburrage - - Parent

" It turns out that at Bungay we play a mixture of American rules & English rules, & our posting rule that sends a player back to the beginning is something we have just made up & is not played anywhere else."

This explains a lot.

charlieh - - Parent

The Bungay rules of croquet are based on my hazy recollections of how I played at home as a kid. Since I first introduced the current set to Bungay (and large parts of it survive even though I've replaced quite a lot via eBay) I think it's perfectly fitting that we stick to them...even introduce them to others in an attempt to shake up the croquet world!

The Void - - Parent

I thought they were based on how Simon taught me, and others, when we played at his house. Anyway, Bungay rules rock. And 4 hour games are just fine. (But 5+ is pushing it.)

charlieh - - Parent

OK. Maybe it's a any case, our rules is right and their rules is wrong.

Orinoco - - Parent

Absolutely, I think I'd find anything other than Bungay rules croquet to be boring.

Funny thing is I've been having conversations about croquet with muggles for years about what a savage & vindictive game croquet is. Now I know that they've only played croquet lite.

I think the Bungay rules need to be written up for the Bungay website.

The Void - - Parent

I think you might need to ask a Squirrel whether the correct spelling of "Greg" might, in some circumstances, be "Bogdan".
Oh, and it's definitely pronounced "scone".

Orinoco - - Parent

It might indeed, I just took the first syllable from the first of his somewhat excessive amount of names from the full name on his FB profile!

& don't you go trying to provoke another pronunciation war. We are a tolerant & peaceful community here on the Edge where all 3 possible pronunciations are acceptable.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

'Twas my first one for about six years, so I made up for it by attending twice ... and it would've been three times had I stopped over on Monday night as well.

Bungay tings :-

  1. The weather.
  2. The weather.
  3. The weather.
  4. Being back in the laid-back convention loop after waaaay too long a hiatus.
  5. Ewan, Becky, Greig, Karen, Mandy, Leo, Freya, Ron, Rob, Cathy, Tarim, Guy, Susannah, and all the rest. Old friends the lot of you (even the ones I haven't known very long) and I am very grateful for your company.
  6. The truly humungous hare in the road just before I arrived the second time. Up close wildlife infallibly raises my spirits and leaves me agog with wonder.
  7. Andy's improbably crap Kubb shot. I'm still chuckling about it now.
  8. Although it still hurts me deeply, I must not forget our dear and absent friend Gary, whom I miss every day.

Anyhow, it'll probably be back again next year, but you really shouldn't come, you wouldn't like it.

charlieh - - Parent

8...for those of you who couldn't make it: There was an informal gathering in the tent on Sunday afternoon over tea & cake, where we shared memories of Gary (some were written down for posterity) and some people made woven paracord shapes, which was a favourite of his.

We will not forget. It is a testament to the strength of our community - and of some particular members of it - that after such a terrible shock last year we continue to come together and share such joy.

Dee - - Parent

My Bungay

Arrived Saturday lunchtime with Sam, having caught the train from London Liverpool St together. Met by Void at Halesworth Station. Some confusion as to if we needed to wait for Sarah, but she was arriving into Bungay so no need. Stopped off in the co-op before making our way to site.

Erected tent just to the edge of the family camping area and then went for a wander. This didn't prove to be the potential disaster that it could have been. It turns out that while most noises wake me up at night, apparently I can sleep right through children crying!

Off site adventures during my stay included: 1 trip to Co-op with Andy; 1 trip to Southwold (Tuesday); 1 trip to river swimming (Thursday); 1 walk to the brewery and back (Sunday - but I was back onsite before the brewery opened).

Mostly I was very lazy, in particular on the second Saturday, when my silk sleeping bag liner saw some good use on the couch [I was completely done in by the heat and sinus medication]. I read lots of books, juggled some on Sunday morning, encouraged Ash more (well done on the progression from 10 to over 100 catches of three clubs in a week and hence winning £5) and generally took the chance to catch up with people. Watched the Monaco Grand Prix in Monte's van.

Some cunning plans formed for EJC2019, including introducing "Bungay rules" croquet to the masses and a mini-golf course. Of course only time, resources and space on the Newark site will see if these can actually come into fruition (so no holding breath on these).

Gin tasting notes to follow. Participants in this gin tasting session were me, LP, Ewan, Becky, Helen and later joined by Robbie. So, Orin, I'm afraid that your speculation about Chilli being involved were wide of the mark. My notes were hampered by my resolution to keep all the notes about each gin on a different page - one gin in particular had rather extensive comments.

Left site at midday on Monday, dropped by David to Halesworth Station to begin my rather epic public transport journey back to Bristol, the first stage (to Ipswich) accompanied by Greg and Karen.

Orinoco - - Parent

Your sleeping bag liner made for a very effective camouflage against the sofa you were sleeping on. A couple of people took a detour to an alternative seat when they got close enough to realise.

Don't forget the Blankety blank theme tune for your playlist!

charlieh - - Parent

Wow, that was a wonderful 10 days.

Notwithstanding our house being demolished around us, so we have no idea where anything is, and our car needing replacement the day before the festival (I bought another car, which initially had no MOT, faster than I've ever bought one before), we weren't going to miss this year at any price.

Highlights included some of the warmest and sunniest weather for years, meaning we spent a lot of time at the seaside and the river. Smoked mackerel bought directly from the fisherman at Aldeburgh eaten on the beach with our fingers. Brave women swimming in the North Sea at Southwold while all the men except equally brave Russell looked on, followed by a hilarious group effort to preserve Anna's modesty with a tent of towels as she changed (Europeans you probably won't understand this bit). What seemed like endless lazy days in the buttercup field watching kites fly, children run about and croquet played. Later sat in a wood-fired hot tub at 2 in the morning watching the International Space Station cross the sky.

The Bungay show was well....the most Bungay ever. We had a novice and friendly compere, belly dancing, two songs, a group kids act (which my daughter punctuated with a sudden spectacular nosebleed), 3-ball bird impressions, that trick again, pole spinning and Eddy Bacon's flawless contact. It felt like a village talent show, in a good way. Afterwards a few people wanted to learn 'that trick' and I spent some time teaching ball spinning. We also played a lot of volleyclub with quite a few beginners learning the ropes (and the Bungay rules, which can best be described as 'don't be *too* evil'). We even had a Fight Night - I finished fourth after folding in the final stages, partly due to being intimidated by those who take it seriously.

Cafe Chameleon cooked tasty grub (seriously, if you're involved in a UK event you should book them, they're lovely) all week including a couple of Sunday roasts using meat from the farm itself. St Peters Brewery had its annual spike in sales of Badly Labelled Beer. In between jugglers' generosity manifested itself as crisps, chocolate, cake and beverages were shared. Lots of games were played apparently, including the ones which cover an entire table with cardboard bits and take far too long to complete. Endless conversations about subjects both serious and silly (I remember: Victorian rainwater collection systems, boat welding and 'beating the boundary').

There were some new additions to the family: first-timer adults declaring they were *definitely* coming back again next time and tiny kids discovering how to stay up late and run around in the buttercups. Our two raided Bungay's extensive charity shops for slightly battered toys & books and the youngest became slightly obsessed with origami (when he wasn't involved in the ongoing Nerf Ninja war fought valiantly between tents and from behind old sofas and chairs).

The world's shortest and most relaxed 'business meeting' concluded that a) wasn't it good b) let's do it again c) let's not change much at all. Bungay will be back next year.

The Void - - Parent

Poker data updated:

The Void - - Parent

My pics are up (Some IG repetition) at No re-uploads, please.

The Void - - Parent

The epic splendour of BBU Fight Night can be seen here:

The Void - - Parent

Set-up slogging.
Completing my collection of The Catch.
Cubing Rubiks.
Lost Cities, Chess, Chessss And Ladders, The Game, The Yes-No game, Spyfall, The Oxford Word game, Robots both ricochet and Micro, boiled head Kuub, Table Tennis. That 5-in-a-row tile game I don't know the name of.
Charity shopping.
The BBU backcross challenge, and other silliness at the top of the field.
New people!
Nut roasts and halloumi at Chameleon Cafe.
The horrible weather.
Charlie taking the quiz win, after 2nd place last year. Monte & Nat in the final too.
Being rubbish at the BBU trick in the show. I'm blaming borrowed equipment.
Undefeated at Scrabble, Croquet and Chessss And Ladders.
The sky full of stars, kites, satellites, and planets.
Filming kendama tricks.
Forgetting the grudge match and substitute poker trophies.
Finally getting to hold the poker trophy, a year after winning it... But only by making a new one.
Handing out ice creams, and getting the karma back a few days later.
Charging phone and ipod exclusively from solar all week.
Observing the progress of Monte's van.
Wood pigeons nesting above the sink.
No cats.
Supercool people being nonetheless cancer-seeking stench-ridden junkies.
Getting Paul's missing 50th answer in his bird quiz.
Dave's plaintiff "But I've already come second!" a couple of hands before condemning Andy into his 4th runner-up spot.
Post-show diabolo session with Sean_ and Susannah.
Fight Night turning out to be quite fun, even though beforehand I was very unenthused about running it. Plus... points!
- "I've had enough of feeling stupid for tonight."
- "See you in the morning!"
Avril's BBU song.
No trebuchet! (It was a fallow year.)

Monte - - Parent

Turning £2 into £25.50 over 4 cash games. (only 4! I was starting to think Bungay might be broken).
Building my new kitchen instead of repairing last years Trebuchet.....mixed feelings about this.
Being persecuted by Charlie in the 15 to 1 final because he saw me as the greatest threat.....
Having some great games of whiff waff with the riff raff (having a winning total against everyone except Mandy)
Actually spending some time juggling (well you have to do something while you wait for the ping pong table to become free)
New faces this year was a great thing.
Helping Clare and Chilli in the cafe with contributions such as venison pie, spinach and cream cheese crepes and pineapple upside down cake.
Winning the grudge match trophy off Ewan with a str8 on the flop.

All this and some great weather made for one of the best Bungays yet.
If you haven't been to BBU yet, why the hell not it's great.......

charlieh - - Parent

sorry to persecute but I had to win after last year's Mastermind second place. Would have preferred to face Void again this year but I suppose someone had to run the least that was his excuse!

The Void - - Parent

Ron has offered to run the quiz next year, so you'll get your rematch. Frances Farmer shall have her revenge on Seattle.

Stephen Meschke -

Juggling Data Set.

I have created a juggling data set. It consists of several videos of different juggling patterns, graphs, and .csv (spreadsheet) files. Some of the data is visualized in this Youtube video: Juggling Pattern Waveforms.

To create the dataset, I first took video of myself juggling. Next, using computer vision, I recorded the locations of the juggling balls in a spreadsheet. Once the data is captured in a spreadsheet, it can be easily analyzed. For example, this is the data for the pattern 423:

Collecting the data (the positions of the balls) from the video and recording it in a spreadsheet requires specialization in computer vision, particularly object recognition and tracking. Now that the data has been taken from the video and put in a spreadsheet, it is much easier to analyze!

The data can also be analyzed using Python (with the help of packages Pandas and Matplotlib). This short Python script shows how to load and graph the data.

One of the applications of this dataset is to compare two different jugglers who are juggling the same pattern. But, for this, I need your help! I would like to include juggling from other jugglers in this data set. If you could supply me with a high-quality short video clip of juggling, I could track the locations of the balls and add it to the data set.

Nikita - - Parent

Hey, Stephen.
I don't quite see what result you trying to achieve here, but I'd really like to help.
I'll try to record something tomorrow.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I have several goals for the juggling data set:

  • Provide a repository of high quality juggling data for others to study.
  • Compare actual juggling patterns to idealized juggling patterns.
  • Compare one juggler to another.
  • Create a system of juggling notation that describes actual juggling.
  • Provide a ground truth for others to measure ball tracking algorithms.
  • Aid in the programming of juggling robots.

"If you build it, they will come."

I don't know what people will do with this data set! Hopefully, this data will have some really cool applications in the field of machine learning.

Nikita - - Parent

I gave it another thought. You probably can find as many juggling videos as you want on you tube.
If you have any specific requirement for you soft to work, than you better list them.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I considered using videos from Youtube (This is the data from an 11 ball flash.).

There are a couple problems with using videos from Youtube:

  • I don't have the rights to the source video.
  • Most of the juggling on Youtube is filmed so that it is aesthetically pleasing, rather than optimized for object tracking.

The two methods that I am using to track balls are optical flow and colorspaces.

Here are a few things that can be done to optimize a video for object tracking:

  • Use juggling props that have as much contrast as possible, like green props on a tan and white background.
  • Juggle in a space with even lighting.
  • Capture the video in the highest resolution and frame rate possible, for tall patterns like 97531 it is best to turn the camera sideways and film with vertical video.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I guess it's also obvious that the props should be visible all the time, so that for example claws hiding a ball are unapt for tracking  ( or will the software just go on tracking where the ball appears again with data just not for only that hidden part of the balls trajectory, a hole in the rendered curve then ) ?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, it is helpful if the props are visible. Sometimes the tracker will get lost if the ball is obscured, enters a different lighting condition, or changes direction rapidly. If the tracker gets lost, I can pause the program and reset the tracker to the appropriate position.

I can implement optical flow in Python, but I don't really understand it. Explaining how it works is way beyond me.

This video shows how optical flow works:

Notice what happens when the ball passes in front of my face. The tracker is most likely to get lost there because the ball appears to be a blur on those frames.

peterbone - - Parent

What steps follow optical flow? I assume you're first segmenting the flow vectors to find the balls? Are you then using a predictive tracker that can predict the object's position when not detected, such as a Kalman filter? It must be possible for the tracker to know that the balls travel in parabolas when in the air, which would help tracking a lot.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

The tracking program that I wrote is quite simple. It relies on the user to click on an object to be tracked, and then uses optical flow to track the object. There is no detection, that is done by the user. Segmenting flow vectors is not something that I had considered, but I will try to implement that.

I have considered using a Kalman filter, OpenCV has a Kalman filter class, and I am currently researching this. The use of a Kalman filter is probably the best tool to make juggling ball tracking software more robust.

Optical flow is more than adequate for tracking the balls when they are in the air. Most of the tracking problems I encounter are when the ball has a sudden change in velocity as it is caught or thrown.

Tracking juggling balls in highly optimized video is a fairly easy computer vision task, a heuristic approach to solving my tracking problems is to collect video in higher resolution. I am currently working with 1080p30fps video.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Any particular patterns you'd like me to film? I'll try and do this next week.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, can you film 15 catches of 5 ball cascade (from launch to collect)? I have noticed that good jugglers tend to throw the first ball (or maybe two or three balls) a little higher than the average pattern height. Jugglers that are just learning the 5 ball cascade tend to throw the first few balls a little low and then struggle into the pattern.

I want to get video from several jugglers, all juggling the same pattern for the same amount of catches, so that I can compare things like average pattern height, dwell time, height of the first throw vs. the average height of the pattern, syncopation, etc...

Thank you for you interest in the juggling data set.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Sorry for the delay. I was going to film outside just now and then realized my balls are in the gym. Just letting you know I still plan on doing it :)

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

No rush! The juggling data set is a long term project for me.

A couple notes about uploading video:

  • I prefer that you upload the file directly as it comes from the camera to avoid loss of resolution. Don't worry about editing (splicing, cropping, or rotating).
  • Please upload the video to a location where it can be downloaded directly (not Youtube, there is no way to download Youtube videos in full quality).
  • Mention that you allow me to use your video in my juggling data set.
  • You can also email your video to me directly (probably the easiest thing to do) at 'stephen meschke @ gmail . com.' With the spaces removed.

Thank you!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course I read this post while it was already uploading to youtube >.<, so I'll post it here anyway for those interested. It's also on it's way to your email inbox. You can use this video in any way you like, including but not limited to using it in your data set.

Sorry for the terrible terrible quality! I hadn't tried 60fps mode before, at least now I know it is completely useless. If you prefer I can film it again in 30fps, which should be sharp 1080p.
I have a super wide lens and the camera allows me to zoom, probably some kind of digital zoom which made the sharpness even worse, but the lines of the building still don't seem exactly straight. I hope this doesn't skew the data too much.

Anyway, if you have wishes, let me know and I'll film it and send the raw stuff straight to you.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you for sending me your video! Even though the resolution was not great, the contrast between the balls and the rest of the frame was amazing! The balls were very easy to track.

I have used my tracking software to extract the data, here are the results:

Now that I have data from another juggler, I can work on methods to compare your juggling to mine.

Orinoco - - Parent

I'm watching this project with interest.

I'm wondering if professionals working on a synchronised routine would be interested in your software to analyse a video of their routine to easily identify areas where they are out of synch?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Most of the time it is easy to see for the professionals themselves when they are out of synch, no software needed. Perhaps for really precise things, such as isolations, this could be an application. But this software is not for that..

david - - Parent

Excellent, both the juggling and the tracking. I particularly value seeing the start which inspires me to clean up my start to include the whole trough of the curves before the first releases.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you.

I was surprised to find that the act of juggling started quite a while before the first ball was thrown. I'd like to collect data from multiple jugglers to see if everyone does two fake throws before launching the first ball.

Kelhoon - - Parent

I often do several (more than 2) fake throws when starting 5, but launch in to a lot of patterns with 3 straight away.

I tend to do the fake throws for 5 until I "feel" like I have the right rhythm and spacing.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Now for the stuff I'd be curious about:
In long runs, how stable are my throws? Like could you give my pattern a score based on how much the throws diverge from the average of all throws?
In what way do my L and R hand differ? Do they both throw equally high and wide, or how big is the difference?

In the shorter runs, it is completely fine for me if every ball behaves different. Here I don't want to compare throw by throw, but rather run by run. I gave 3 samples of 15 catches, I'd be curious to know if ball 1 of attempt 1 is similar to ball 1 of attempt 2 and 3. etc.

In the future it could be interesting to compare jugglers and their styles too. Average height, dwell time, width, etc.

In all of the scores above I'd like to bring to 0 difference of course, and if there was a tangible number it would be fun to keep track over the years and try to become as much robot like as possible.

Anyway, those are some ideas of what to do with the data :). I hope you find some uses for this. And since seemingly I'm only the second juggler you've got on video: Guys, record some 5b 15 catches! Super easy stuff, right?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I have been working on determining dwell time and throw height. I do eventually want to create some metric that can describe how far a juggling pattern is from perfection. This is an interesting question though, because I don't really know what perfection is in terms of juggling.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I wouldn't steer towards the question of what a perfect throw would be, that can be answered by others over time. You could however determine how far a throw is from your own average, or how far it is from the throws of this one juggler who you think throws pretty perfect.

My thoughts about a perfect throw/pattern can be found here:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Since throws would be perfect parabolas (are they?), can't we visualize most of the data when we'd just have the starting point, the highest point and the catching point of each throw? Would diminishing the data like that make it easier to analyze, possibly easier to visualize? Is it hard to acquire these 3 points from the data?

david - - Parent

In the absence of wind the center of mass free flight paths are perfect parabolas to pixel resolution but the parabola may not be in the plane the camera is digitizing. There is also a little uncertainity about the end points. If you look at the velocity and acceleration plots you can see the noise. You can also see that, for the example shown, less than half is for free flight.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Tracking the ball during throws and catches is difficult for three reasons:

  • The ball is partially obscured by the hand.
  • The ball is at maximum speed, and appears as a blur instead of a sphere.
  • There may be a sudden change in speed and direction during the throw or catch.

The easiest solution is to record video in a higher frame rate; 120fps is sufficient for most 5 ball juggling. Another solution is to use smoothing techniques on the data to reduce noise. I have applied smoothing techniques to Daniel's data, and these are the results (quite an improvement):

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Right now I am focused on collecting good data, by working to make my tracking program more accurate.

I have identified five critical points that I would like to find: toss, crossing point traverse, zenith, catch, and toss onset. These critical points can be found in the data by using statistical techniques.

peterbone - - Parent

I think that your data request is not specific enough. If you want to compare the same pattern for different jugglers then you should specify exactly what data you want. I think you'd have a lot more response for that. I may be interested in filming something if you have a specific request. I have a nice plain wall outside and some bright balls.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

For the purposes of comparing one juggler to another, it would be best to eliminate as many variables as possible:

It would be easiest to do this at a juggling convention, with one camera setup and an 'x' on the floor for the juggler to stand over.

Until then, if you (or anyone else) would like to have a short clip of juggling tracked and recorded in a spreadsheet, I am more than willing to help.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Come do this next year at the Dutch juggling championships. Plenty of ball jugglers who all believe they have the best 5b cascade, you can help them (dis)proove it and collect data at the same time!

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I made sure to get explicit consent before including you in the Juggling Dataset to avoid future conflict if the analysis proved that your juggling is bad. Looking at my own data, and comparing it to yours I can see that you juggle much better.*

For jugglers that spend more than an hour a day with props in the air, juggling can become part of who they are. Finding out that they are not good at juggling (by some however arbitrary measure) can be a hard pill to swallow.

*I blame it on the balls.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Indeed, sadly, it's just an arbitrary measure... I'm not convinced that my stable juggling is any good until I get close to your 7b records ;)

Do I see correctly that this graph only displays the height of the balls over time? Variation in width of a throw and horizontal spacing would also be important to determine if your juggling is "clean".

Our graphs look very different. I assume the horizontal scale is based on the amount of frames? It wouldn't be too hard to adjust for actual time, no?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

From the video with the overlay it seems like my two hands have opposite problems:

My right hand makes throws from a consistent horizontal location, but the throws vary in width. My left hand makes throws from different locations, but somehow manages to correct the width in such a way that the balls all land at exactly the same spot! I could have never noticed this without the visual aid. Can you check if this is also true in the longer runs? Can you think of a way of graphing out the data of the x axis in a way that this would be readable?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Of course, the same kind of graph but downwards, that could work...

(if only I could edit posts to include the thoughts I have seconds after posting, this thread wouldn't need to become a mess)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Also, the color coding is different in the graph and in the video. Sticking to one consistent order would make it easier to analize.

Sorry for the overkill of input, I'm just excited and curious to study more of my juggling this way :D

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Yes, these graphs plot height on the Y-axis and time on the X-axis. I would like to include the horizontal position of the balls, but that would mean graphing in three dimensions, which I have only a little experience with (I'll try it in Matplotlib for Python, but if anyone has suggestions...).

The graph of your pattern is more stretched out because yours if filmed in 60fps and mine is filmed in 30fps. I am working on a way to normalize the data so that different frame rates can be compared.

I see that you have replied to your own comment several times! Glad to see you are excited about this. I am excited about this too, but as this is a long term project for me, I am going to take my time and try to produce high quality data and avoid publishing things only to have to retract them later.

unigamer - - Parent

Hello Stephen, I've been following this thread closely, it's a great project. I'll try to get some footage of myself juggling soon and send it to you.

I haven't got round to using Matplotlib yet because I've had access to Matlab while I am a student. I have done a fair amount of plotting, animating and other stuff. If you're willing to send me an example csv file of some juggling, maybe a column for each ball and each row being a discrete time step then I'd love to have a go at plotting some stuff. I can just send whatever I come up with to you, the Matlab code won't be directly useful because I suspect the syntax might be a bit different but it should be a nice little prototype.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

The data for my pattern can be found here:

@Stephen: Until a 3d graphic is readable, 2 separate 2d graphics would also help to analize the juggling

unigamer - - Parent

Sorry Daniel, I wasn't paying attention to who-is-who there so my previous message was directed to you. Thanks for a link to the data, I've had a quick play around with it.

My working folder:

My first quick test plot:

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Don't worry, this is Stephens data file anyway (of my pattern)

Looks interesting, I guess I'd have to view it in 3d to be able to see if it is analisable...

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Nice graph! Did you smooth the data?

I made a .gif of the same graph using Python and Matplotlib, here's a link: Small: 3mb, Medium: 5mb, Large: 9mb.

You can find the code used to generate these (and lots more) in the Python Tutorials folder of the Juggling Dataset.

unigamer - - Parent

I didn't smooth the data but I did choose thick lines which can have a similar effect.

If your gif is animated then my phone isn't showing it properly, I'll check tomorrow on a desktop. Hopefully I'll make the switch to Python soon so I can use your stuff and my work won't be tied up in proprietary, expensive software... it's just so convenient though!

I'd like to do some animating of the data. It would also be interesting to seperate each 'cycle' to see how consistent the throws are. This steps into statistics and is a bit outside my territory but it would be a fun project to learn more with.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I made a few more animated graphs and uploaded them to Imgur for viewing on mobile:

These graphs are also available in the graphs folder in the Juggling Data set.

I have learned a lot about statistics and computer vision working on this project. You can find the codes that I used in the Python Tutorials folder (they aren't pretty).

Dee - - Parent

It would be interesting to see how this relates to what Joost Dessing was doing at EJC2014 (a brief description was in Scott Seltzer's general review of EJC2014).

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oh cool, thanks for that link. It must've slipped past me at the time.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

Thank you for that interesting link, I look forward to reading his publications. It seems that Dr. Joost Dressing and I have different aims for the data that we collect.

My goal for the Juggling Dataset is to create a dataset that others (who are so statistically inclined) can use to study juggling. I want the data to be as accessible as possible, similar to how the creators of Kaggle have made the Titanic Dataset accessible; by hosting the data online with a thorough description and several tutorials in multiple programming languages.

I assume Dr. Dressing collects data to prove or disprove a hypothesis and then publishes those results for academic prestige.

Early on in the creation of this data set I realized that creating a data set is difficult. There are several steps, and each of which requires specialized knowledge, software, and equipment to do well: juggling, video recording of juggling, computer vision analysis of juggling video, formatting data and hosting it online, writing tutorials and descriptions for the data...all of this has to happen before a hypothesis can be tested.

Fields like machine learning and data science are really starting to take off! By creating the Juggling Data set, I hope to leverage the machine learning practitioners and data scientists skills to advance the knowledge of juggling. They are nothing without data, but likely lack the ability to collect it. There are a lot of data addicts, but few data set creators.

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